FAO Roaken

[liloe]

You've got an ingame poll system..

Has anyone actually at least asked the question?

As far as these forums go 95% of the server is currently only playing on Dyvet because they don't want to go through the effort of re-rolling and their mates are on Dyvet. It's obvious that the forums don't actually represent the playing population. Only one way to find out what people actually want really isn't there.

If Dyvet isn't clustered when WAR hits then your only option will be to pull the power anyway.

The question is not if Dyvet dies....it already did. The point is, that the German server will die....so no multi-lingual cluster ever please. My classic chars on Canterbury are long dead cause of that. Salisbury alone had more players than the complete classic cluster now and I blame clustering for that. It was fun at the start, but soon the problems became too evident.

 

[Imgormiel]

Hmm, on a more positive note I have these questions.

At what level do GOA have an interest in actually taking on board the views of how to save the English cluster and how are they going to implement it? - You do realise that this relationship has to be at least symbiotic and at best you are at your own customer base mercy.

Is there going to be some sort of poll like there was 2 years ago when mythic asked on here what improvements could be done to DAOC overall? Mythic do listen to you guys here, I happen to know this because some of the suggestions I made in the last poll were actually implemented.


I suggest that you gain dialogue with mythic on this issue, particularly with regards to the database and how you enable customer character transfers and possibly make some cash out of it. If the cluster is to die then it would be advisable to see what can be done for your paying customer with this regard. Things are never set in stone and if a dialogue and agreement can be reached, I am sure that EA/Mythic would have an interest in taking that customer base to the USA. I know that GOA see this database as their own and that these are your customers but it's time to be more flexible on this matter and not stubborn. Your customer should have more say in his account, even though as the EULA says that technically the customer does not own any of the data which makes the character he/she pays to play.

I say lets get off the negative and at least try to have some dialogue with GOA on this one and see what they can come up with, solutions on each side have to be met half way. This is your opportunity to do so guys

 

[Tallen]

It does seem like it would be a technical nightmare to have a different infrastructure at GoA given what has been said about the license. It wouldn't make much sense from a mythic > GoA support point of view and sounds like a recipe for disaster with patches that directly affect the database. Surely it would have made more sense to essentiallly clone the mythic servers in the first place at the conception of the game, not try to emulate them with a different infrastructure?

Different countries, different companies, different servers. Both companies will have their preferred hardware supplier and it's unlikely that company has a branch in both the US and France to support the systems. The only relationship between Mythic and GoA is the licence, the two companies are set-up and ran very differently.

You buy a can of drink from a vending machine or a shop, it's the same can but supplied in two very different ways. Difference is, if the can in the shop is defective you can speak to the shop keeper and get it changed, with the vending machine if the can is defective you will have to put-up and shut-up or write to the vending machine company then wait several months for a generic reply that informs you they are looking into the problem and please have a cookie to replace the cookie the machine didn't vend correctly....

 

[Biohazarddk]

and sometimes the cofee from a vending machine tastes like sh** compared to what u can buy in a shop I think this is the case here ^^

 

[Raven]

Goa's plans to save Dyvet https://forums.freddyshouse.com/general-discussion18/222503-please-tell-me.html#post3241070

 

[civy]

Made me giggle YouTube - GC Video Interview zum Status von DAoC mit Julian Cuvier
[youtubevid]X_tj2O6cgkk[/youtubevid]

 

[Clive Aminal]

Different countries, different companies, different servers. Both companies will have their preferred hardware supplier and it's unlikely that company has a branch in both the US and France to support the systems. The only relationship between Mythic and GoA is the licence, the two companies are set-up and ran very differently.

You buy a can of drink from a vending machine or a shop, it's the same can but supplied in two very different ways. Difference is, if the can in the shop is defective you can speak to the shop keeper and get it changed, with the vending machine if the can is defective you will have to put-up and shut-up or write to the vending machine company then wait several months for a generic reply that informs you they are looking into the problem and please have a cookie to replace the cookie the machine didn't vend correctly....

All very true, but when you are running a custom written piece of software designed to run on specific custom hardware, if you license that software out, you would assume that near as dammit, that the licensee would make sure the hardware they are running it on would be more or less the same. But that isn't the point really, the localization issues and other "technical" issues listed in this thread mean that the GoA database has subtle differences to mythics databases, which would make it very difficult for mythic to develop a way to cluster a clustered server as it is not in an exact format they are used to dealing with.

My point (and I thought I made it clearly the first time), was if GoA had actually cloned the mythic system, and manged to address any hardware and technical differences at the conception of the game, GoA subscribers would be getting the latest patches at the same time as US customers, and clustering a cluster would not be an issue (it's currently being done with two mythic clusters).

As it is, you have a cluster that cannot be clustered again, and even if it can, anyone who does not speak german or french is unlikely to play it (see numerous Glastonbury threads).

To be fair to GoA, from what I have read in other threads, they have learned a lesson from DAoC and have not made the same mistakes on WAR, which will be patched at the same time here as in the US.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Made me giggle YouTube - GC Video Interview zum Status von DAoC mit Julian Cuvier
[youtubevid]X_tj2O6cgkk[/youtubevid]

Outrageous.

 

[guid0]

Made me giggle YouTube - GC Video Interview zum Status von DAoC mit Julian Cuvier
[youtubevid]X_tj2O6cgkk[/youtubevid]

to bad noone informed the GC people about dyvet situation before they did the interview. Could have neded up in something really funny

 

[Gear]

Made me giggle YouTube - GC Video Interview zum Status von DAoC mit Julian Cuvier
[youtubevid]X_tj2O6cgkk[/youtubevid]

ROFL! At least he's true at the end where he says that he's trying not to do enough marketing!

But nice collection of crap. He can't even spin it properly tbh.

 

[Imgormiel]

As it is, you have a cluster that cannot be clustered again, and even if it can, anyone who does not speak german or french is unlikely to play it (see numerous Glastonbury threads).

.

The whole point of it being that there should not be any localization issues with this particular DB due to Dyvet being an English server and thus with the US being native English the translation should happen with ease for the database.

 

[liloe]

The whole point of it being that there should not be any localization issues with this particular DB due to Dyvet being an English server and thus with the US being native English the translation should happen with ease for the database.

Well I'm not much into databases cause I kinda slept in lectures *cough* but if the US has only ONE native language to support, then it's much easier for them than it is for GOA who have to make sure their patches work on every server at the same time cause there is only ONE server selection screen and not one for every client you're using. You can log in with a ger. client to an eng. server, so the patches have to be all the same.

All the shit comes from a database and based on the server language, different data will be picked, which means that the US DB is much smaller and easier to handle than the EU one.

That video was funny though ^^ Gotta admit that he had skills in not saying that numbers dropped much =)

 

[Imgormiel]

Well I'm not much into databases cause I kinda slept in lectures *cough* but if the US has only ONE native language to support, then it's much easier for them than it is for GOA who have to make sure their patches work on every server at the same time cause there is only ONE server selection screen and not one for every client you're using. You can log in with a ger. client to an eng. server, so the patches have to be all the same.

All the shit comes from a database and based on the server language, different data will be picked, which means that the US DB is much smaller and easier to handle than the EU one.

That video was funny though ^^ Gotta admit that he had skills in not saying that numbers dropped much =)

The client isn't the problem, you missed that point, if you patch to US the client also changes along with it. It's the extrapolated data from the database that you need to manipulate, the client is quite irrelevant.

 

[liloe]

The client isn't the problem, you missed that point, if you patch to US the client also changes along with it. It's the extrapolated data from the database that you need to manipulate, the client is quite irrelevant.

Yer sry, it was still early when I wrote that ^^ That's what I wrote in the small paragraph. What I mean with the clients is, that they can't simply take over the US stuff for the eng. servers, cause there isn't a specific client/login for that. I hope that was a little clearer =)

 

[Clive Aminal]

The whole point of it being that there should not be any localization issues with this particular DB due to Dyvet being an English server and thus with the US being native English the translation should happen with ease for the database.

As I understand it, the english DB has been brought more in line with the french and german databases making patching for them all easier by GoA with as little downtime as possible on the servers. As such the database is not in a format which will easily cluster with a Mythic cluster. That added to the problem of GoA specific additions to the database, duplicate names ect. would make it a messy job to merge onto an existing Mythic server.

Of course we are counting on GoA giving up this database and coming to some agreement in the first place for a US transfer. In an ideal world it would happen, but to be honest I can't see it coming to pass. GoA would gain nothing from it and would loose the 250-350 monthly subs they currently get from the Dyvet cluster. I doubt they will invest the time and money into such a solution.

I am sure another year or so will pass, and when the poulation is down to an average of 50 at primetime, the decision will be made to make the cluster french or german, and most remaining UK players will leave for pastures new.

 

[Belisar]

As I said we weren't 'sat quietly'. We were trying to find a sustainable solution to the problem on Dyvet and on other low population servers.

Given the length of time the ever reducing population has been obvious I do not think it is asking too much that either a solution is found or the position made completely obvious to the playing population. Sadly we have seen neither. To be honest there was always going to come a time when the server population fell to a critical level. We never knew when that time would come but it would always come eventually. Paying customers deserve to have some kind of redundancy position in place.

If no-one cared Dyvet would have been absorbed or closed down a long time ago. People have been trying to make this work because they do care about the English server.

If I wanted to be cynical (and please try to see it from the players point of view) I would say this statement is untrue. You yourself say that absorption into another language server is a sign of the end. That and closing the server therefore means the paying customers no longer pay. This costs GOA money. They no longer care about the server but they care about sucking as much cash as possible out of the players for as long as they can (or at least until WarHammer comes out). Anyone who cares about the playing population would have been saying "ok guys we tried this but it does not work so we are looking at something else", but we have heard pretty much nothing. Yes this is a cynical point of view but what have we seen that gives us any reason to not be cynical ?

we are limited not by our technical expertise, but by the restrictions on our licence.

If this is true now, should we not all be saving ourselves some aggro and heartache going forwards and just playing WarHammer on US servers. No license issues then as we are cutting out the middle man (i.e. GOA) ?

 

[liloe]

Oh and btw, if you think a server can't be ressurected, then you're wrong. I have no idea what Requiel did in Italy, but the numbers on Deira have been rising ever since, so maybe Roaken should do a tour through England and do some advertising, cause that could really get people back I think.

The new starter quests give new players a good opportunity to level fast and get some gear, not like in the old days where I had to shoot green con water beetles with arrows from my trainer

 

[Morloch]

I just want to say some things as I see them (I'm making a few assumptions, so if there is any area I'm wrong, and someone knows so, please say so..).

Hardware: xNIX or x86 - Either way, it'll be HP, Dell, IBM, HPUX, SUN, etc. Frankly, even if its from Digby's PC Hardware Supplies, the hardware will be compatible because it will allow for data extract...

Database: As with hardware, it doesn't really matter what DB is used (flat file, dbm, relational) - the data will be extractable and can be manipulated... Also, lots of reference made to the DB as if it was the entire world... it isnt. The DB is simply characters, houses and items, along with their relevant location (it might also contain spawner info and location too, but I'm not too certain on that one - either way, it doesn't really matter). The 'world' as we see it doesn't exist, it is simply an interaction between the items in the DB and the server program moving them around, spawning and operating NPC's/monsters, and keeping track of certain in-game item states (such as towers, keeps, relics, etc).

So, on the subject of migrating/merging/whatever...
(please bear in mind, i'm specifically thinking of merging with a US server, which I know, I know, is 'impossible'...)

Option 1: Simple char transfer, without clustering or even moving the server - ie move the player base to another server and switch Dyvet off for good. You have to consider what might cause a problem when you move the character data, and address each problem:

a: Name conflict (can be checked for in your pre transfer data clense, or as a filter during transfer) - solution, generate a random name and give player a token that allows a one time character re-name.

b: Items attached to character (in backpack or in vault) that simply do not exist in recipient server - Solution, strip items (again, can be done at data clense, or during transfer). Tough on transferred player, but alternative is losing character altogether.

c: Housing (all sorts of issues here, not going to list all, 'cause solution is same in all cases) - Solution, house of transferred character is removed. Tough decision, but no real alternative. Possible mitigation, but would require more programming - Attach a 'house move' store to the owning character, and place all items from previous house in it. When/if moved character eventually gets another house, items from removal box can be retrived. (something similar was implemented in UltimaOnline once)

d: DB table name, data type, column name, etc differences. Solution, data conversion. It's a bit painstaking scripting out your changes, but a couple of weeks to a good DB conversion specialist should see it done.

The only possible obsticle to option 1 would be that GOA have change ALL/many of the item names or reference. It's not a killer though, just needs more work to convert the data.
Any player that doesn't like the solution... well, the server is dying anyway, so take it or leave it.

Option 2: Clustering/re-clustering/de-clustering and re-clustering....etc

You treat much of the data as per Option 1 (except players should be able to keep their houses).
Essentially, create a brand new 'empty' server in a US cluster, export data, perform your data clense/conversion on the player/item/housing items, import data into new server.

In both options, account management would have to be 'handled', but should be fairly simple - Close GoA account, open Mythic account (with details they provide you with, tied to transferred chars)... hey presto

With appropriate commitment, the technical issues will go away - I personally know at least half a dozen people who would likely be able to handle all the technical aspects.

IainC kind of hinted that they are still working towards multilingual clustering - It'd be nice tecnically if they could do it, but I fail to see the point. The only boost will be to RvR. However great that'd be, it wouldn't re-invigorate the PvE aspects of the game, because few people will be able to mix due to language barriers. Not taking care of PvE means not taking care of new players. No new players means server population continues to decline even though overall cluster population stays high.

Clustering with an English speaking cluster (US) would give still invigorated new US players a new server to play with, slowly but surely enhancing the population.

If GoA/Mythic really do care about us, it's time for them to show it.

I don't think their lack of action is anything to do with 'technical issues'. It has to be either lack of will from GoA to relinquish the UK maket to Mythic (which when you look at it realistically, is the ONLY option that is likely to work), or Mythic/EA don't want to take it on.
Either or both is possible - GoA want to squeeze as much money out of it as they can before it dies, EA will be reluctant to commit resource to an aged and less lucrative venture.

It's also possible that GoA are clinging to the hope that a multilingual cluster will work. If so, someone nudge them and tell them to wake up and smell the coffee...

 

[liloe]

It's also possible that GoA are clinging to the hope that a multilingual cluster will work. If so, someone nudge them and tell them to wake up and smell the coffee...

You're forgetting one little point. What if no cluster wants Excal and Prydwen with them? When Glastonbury was changed to German, there was a poll if people wanted to do so or not. Back then I really liked the idea and promoted it on 4players, but after I see what happened to Classic, I don't really like the idea anymore and trust me, it's not cause of classic or whatever, US classic is going great - better than any other server there.

There is no "best" solution to the problem (except getting new players ofc) but I'd be ok if they transfered the complete Dyvet data to a new US Server, but give all those who don't want to move the option to manually charcopy over to an existing cluster (or just create one more ger+fr Server to chartransfer to, would give less issues with names, cause I friggin love my charnames =)) )

 

[Imgormiel]

You're forgetting one little point. What if no cluster wants Excal and Prydwen with them? When Glastonbury was changed to German, there was a poll if people wanted to do so or not. Back then I really liked the idea and promoted it on 4players, but after I see what happened to Classic, I don't really like the idea anymore and trust me, it's not cause of classic or whatever, US classic is going great - better than any other server there.

There is no "best" solution to the problem (except getting new players ofc) but I'd be ok if they transfered the complete Dyvet data to a new US Server, but give all those who don't want to move the option to manually charcopy over to an existing cluster (or just create one more ger+fr Server to chartransfer to, would give less issues with names, cause I friggin love my charnames =)) )

Not true, if you look at VN boards with regards to US cluster, the overall response has been welcoming and looked forward to with some vigour. Language here is not the problem, if you are on an English server and we clustered with a US one or the DB was taken as morloch said and then extrapolated to US and people aren't happy then WTF are you doing on an English server?

Personally I'd take the loss of a few items in the same way the Prydwen DB went to shit after the crash in place of quite a few plat to sort myself over again as opposed to just letting my chars die and not being able to do anything about it.

With regards to those that don't want to do this, well, a poll would solve the overall issue. Those that didn't wish to char transfer can be content with watching the server die, rerolling elsewhere and then basically starting over. Most of those people will belong to the pve aspect of the game anyway and thus play to roll characters and the pve side of the game. I think the poll result would overwhelmingly consign the result to ship over to US.

I am lucky in respect that I have a few toons on different servers. I am on the dartmoor / stonehenge cluster so I'd still keep playing EU when i wanted to, but my main's are on Dyvet and my commitment to those characters is prevalent to any other server.

Let's face it, if things get bad enough, EA/Mythic will step in when GOA isn't making enough money and take the customers back, just like they did with giving GOA the Italian contract when the original supplier went bust and as they did with the Japanese servers.

I think overall EA/Mythic does care about you enough to want your custom and as I said earlier when on a more positive note, GOA and EA/Mythic can negotiate how it can be done over time, it's just a willingness and overall knowledge convergeance to do it that is the issue here. There's been many helpful suggestions above on what should be done. Some feedback from Roaken would be appropriate now I should think. But overall, there's a technical solution to the problem that can be done, now lets have some suggestions on what should be done with regards to Dyvet being revitalised so Roaken gets to keep his job

 

[Imgormiel]

There is one issue, albeit a minor one that people have missed in this, but it is one that that can be overcome. Most people that play this cluster have made characters on two realms, precisely for the reason that it is a cluster. The db to any new server should be able to cope with that no problem. There's no way I want to lose my hib prydwen toons as in the same respect that I want to equally keep my mid excal ones

 

[gunmannnnn]

Just re-roll German or French servers if you don't want to play Dyvet anymore. Believe it or not GoA's support there is really good (just as I imagine it was on Dyvet), I think the attitude of Dyvet's population doesn't let GoA do their job^.

Rofl! Go google daoc support and u get nothing.... they dont exist..

just saw this thread rofl.... all this /played gone for nothing... givf character transfer
as for the reroll thing why start all over a @@ing game that took u 3-4 years and lot of money and u get nothing at all?
pfff... this thing really sucks...
Better go close ur little shop GOA guys...

 

[rampant]

Made me giggle YouTube - GC Video Interview zum Status von DAoC mit Julian Cuvier
[youtubevid]X_tj2O6cgkk[/youtubevid]

with marketing expertise like this i expect great things from GOA for war



NOT:kissit:

 

[Dakkath]

Well, I don't read these forums as much as I used to as I also gave up on the game a while ago. Still miss the old place and have tried to come back in one guise or another but found the playerbase too limited to actually enjoy the game.

Rolling on another server was never an option for me as I'd spent many years playing my various alts and building relationships with many players ingame. After that much time with some of my 'alts' I developed a strange kind of fondness for them as they developed, I couldn't bring myself to abandon those personalities and just couldn't face going through all of that again somewhere else.

As for some of the vitriolic and inflamitory statements made by some on here, I can't condone them but I can 100% understand where the posters wer comming from. Personally, I have never had a problem with the GMs, on the contrary, I always enjoyed any contact I had with them. The problem is as the public face of the company, you'll always be the ones we vent our frustrations on...

Now, I'm also a cynical old sod and I suspect that GOA knew the firestorm that the news they'd run out of ideas would cause which would at least be a part of the reason why IanC moved on and Roaken isn't as active on here as others in his role have been. Sadly for you GM guys, the length of time it's taken for information to filter out into the public domain was always going to turn into accusations that GOA was deliberatley withholding information to try and maximise revenue from a dying cash cow.

I would also have to agree with the masses that this situation has been badly managed, I do believe GOA had a responsibility to those loyal customers they had left to proactively inform us of the situation when you knew what the situation was. Sadly that wasn't what happened, you waited for someone to ask the question via RightNow. It wouldn't have taken a member of Mensa to realise that this response would then be posted on a public forum and we would feel betrayed. It was a big failing that you guys didn't head this off and the ill will generated by that action alone will be a huge own goal that will harm your WAR subscriptions to one degree or another as previously loyal subscribers loose faith...

I'm another of those annoying sods who tell you they're an experienced IT professional who makes a living maintaining, developing and updating less than friendly database systems and I too have never found a system where, given time and knowledge and sideways thinking, data migration was not possible, it just depends on how much pain you're willing to suffer to do it. Hell, I've made my living and my repututation by doing things with databases that others have told me are impossible. If the truth be known, there's ALWAYS a way to do it, but that's not enough. There has to be incentive to undertake the usually painful and unpleasant work necessary to achieve it. Sadly, for you guys, there just isn't enough life in the product now or money to be made from it to make that effort worth while...

Well, I'll close by saying this: I thank GOA for facilitating many, many fun times in game and helping me to make many new friends who I remain in contact with to this day. I am saddend that things have gone the way they have and do feel that the situation has been mis-managed and the player base let down by someone (I'm willing to bet that's not Roak/IainC(Req)). I just hope you two, and any other GM who ends up representing the company on future projects, have enough pride in their job and their work ethic to stand up for your community, to learn from the mistakes and ensure that this doesn't happen again. We all, GM, E&E and ordinary player alike, believed in the product (despite which in game faction divided us). We were all passionate about the product and we were all united by that fact which is why we stayed so long and why we rage so much now. DAoC Europe deserved better than to die in flames and anger but that's where we find ourselves today.

RIP DAoC Europe. You will be sadly missed...

 

[Himse]

with marketing expertise like this i expect great things from GOA for war



NOT:kissit:

haha i love it, the guy cleverly avoids the population issue, and he is clearly talking about the german servers. ;d

 

[Raven]

They are le tired ffs!!

 

[Thadius]

They are le tired ffs!!

Then they will have a nap and fire the missiles!

 

[Himse]

I don't think anybody has mentioned the fact that Mythic managed to cluster the Japanese server with the rest of the Devon cluster.

GoA are just lieing to you lot, and its getting stupid now.

 

[BaTDiE]

Made me giggle YouTube - GC Video Interview zum Status von DAoC mit Julian Cuvier
[youtubevid]X_tj2O6cgkk[/youtubevid]

hahahaha the poor guy looks like if he was talking with someone behind him holding a knive next to his knees saying *Say a wrong word and you are done*

"Game had a rise of gamers now it's flat again" - wtf hahaha

 

[Golena]

I don't think anybody has mentioned the fact that Mythic managed to cluster the Japanese server with the rest of the Devon cluster.

The Japanese server was run by Mythic already before the cluster wasn't it?