Rant Employment or not employment?

[Talyn]

So, as some of you know I was out of work for over a year, and back in July I started a new job.

As time has gone on, it's all gone to shit. To begin with, I had to borrow about £1500 to get a car, insurance, and so forth. Not a problem, I got me a job!

Yeah if only.

My take home pay, which covers all my bills and debts leaves me £80 a week. Betwween £50 and £60 goes on fuel (3 hour commute every day), which leaves me £20 to £30 a week for food, fags and Steam sales.

This equates to pretty much the same money I had available to me when I was on the dole. (about £50 a fortnight.)

The next issue is that they don't pay overtime, and they don't give time in lieu. My contracted hours are 37.5 a week, but I generally work through my half hour (unpaid) lunch, so I usually do 40 hours. They expect 40-50 hours (they call it 'professional working hours') the extra being unpaid and time you'll never see again.

The last reason is that when they took me on, they told me they were offering £2k under what they wanted to offer because of the agency fees, but after 6 months they would then increase my salary by 2 grand. Now it turns out, they will onlu give me a pay rise dependant on my performance review.

I'm not too worried about it, there are no complaints about me, I've never been pulled up on my performance and all appears well. (To my knowledge.)

Not to take into account, the boss is only the IT manager because her husband is one of the directors (she's a pharmasist by trade and knows fuck all about IT)

Now, I took the job on knowing that in 6 months things would be easier, more money would be coming in and so forth and I'd finally be able to start clearing the debts. For an example - while on the dole, I was paying £56 per month towards my debts, now that I'm working I'm paying £56 per month towards debts.

Finally, I get around to the question. It appears I have a couple of options -

1) Work my bollocks off, put in the 50 hours a week they want and hope it's enough to get £2k more money
2) Work to rule, but make sure the work I do is spot on (and only work extra hours if they offer pay or lieu time)
3) Take a don't care attitude, don't force a sacking, but be a less than perfect employee (remember, I currently have nothing financial to lose)

I'm am aware if I walk away from the job, I can't claim for 6 months,
I have been looking for another job (closer to home, or closer to parents - thier getting old, I worry about them), but due to current shite market not a lot is out there. Yes, I understand the market is shit, and yes I fully understand that working is always better than not (especially for the CV) - but really, 12 hours a day out the house and I'm finding no financial benefit whatsoever.

Any other suggestions, options, or just plain old "suck it up fatty, we're all in the same shit" posts more than welcome.

TL;DR - making no money from working in current job - should I get sacked and start again?

Edit (off topic): And while I think about it, if anyone has some kind of photyshoppe skills and wants to give my dalek an xmas extermination hat, I'll gladly change it!!

 

[Punishment]

20-30 quid for food and fag's is nothing short of poverty tbh mate

 

[Tom]

They're taking advantage of you and they'll never, ever pay you any more money than what they are now.

Firstly, stop working unpaid overtime. Secondly, stop working through your lunch. They don't like it? Tough shit, no more free work. Emergency? Fuckoff, pay me money.

How many miles from work do you live?

 

[Shagrat]

Yeah, I agree with tom, they're taking advantage of you if your just doing the extra hours for nothing. Do your job, take your lunches and go home on time.

 

[Madmaxx]

and stop smoking to £7 for 20 cigs probably hurts ya alot

and dont get sacked on purpose just to go on benefits, I'm sure any 2.5 mill unemployed would like to be in your position(I know i wouldve after a year un-employed)

I'd just work your job, take your breaks or you'll just keep getting frustrated, and look for another job Or do both at the same time! A job wont come some probably, but your working which is the main thing, and its MUCH easier to find a job when you've got a job imo.

I recently found out I wasn't getting paid for working through my breaks(which is what I agreed with my manager, Now I just leave early in stead of working for free; screw them)

 

[Lamp]

I would carry on working - somewhere between option 1 and option 2. You want a glowing reference when you leave. Personally, I would put the hours in, don't give them a single reason to fire you, and in the meanwhile search for a new job. IMO the dole is not a viable option. If you're smoking conventional packs of 20, you might want to switch to roll-ups - cheaper, so I'm told. Its tough out there at the moment, and most of the country are struggling. Chin up & crack on. GL pal.

 

[Punishment]

As said you are entitled by law to your break, i bet the guy asking you to work through yours is sitting on his ass taking his, just work your set hours and the ball is in their court, sounds like people just taking advantage of an intern type scheme.

Don't be worried cause in these cases if the company is seen to take the piss they will be denied cheap labour in the future

 

[Genedril]

Do you work properly but work to rule; That's 37.5 hours a week if it says that in the contract. If they consistently expect more than that then shove it (sounds like you're in IT and stuff can and does happen which means extra hours). If they complain then point at your contract. If they want to sack you or force you out then it's constructive dismissal - though you need to document stuff if you want to go to arbitration after the event.

If they offer time off in lieu of overtime make sure it's commensurate to the OT you've done (so Saturday's are traditionally 1.5* daily rate). If they offer overtime at these rates I'd bite their hand off.

As a point of notice a lot of IT Managers know next to nothing about it and it only gets worse the higher up the management chain you go. It's not good but IT is often lumped in with 'Business' or 'Finance' or some such. That's not likely to change unless you work for large companies (banks etc) or a Tech firm.

Our of interest what do you do (or what is it the job role specifies you should do) and just how much are they paying you? Have they offered training as they're paying you (apparently) sod all? If so have they come through on their promise.

What could you do if you weren't working were you are? Could you contract for significantly better pay? I've only had two permie jobs in my entire life and get by very well as a contractor. I've no idea what sort of other benefits you were on when you were on the dole but if you're paying off the same amount of debt you were then and have the same #me# money you can't be on a great deal right now as iirc a friend who was on the dole got £57 and some pennies a week. So that's basically paying off the debt one week a month from your figures and then 3 weeks of that sort of money.

Ofc you could have spent that 1500 gbp on the sort of car that makes Oil Barons jizz in their pants when you pass and that's where the cash is going but you don't sound like that sort of person (while I am ).

 

[Talyn]

How many miles from work do you live?

It's only about 36 miles, but it's M6 south at rush hour (and then M6 north for the way home). Once I hit the M42, it's a breeze. (I live in Wolves, work in Tamworth)

It's not a job I would have normally applied or gone for, but at the time, I'd been on the dole for 14 months, I just needed to work.

As for the smoking, I smoke tobacco, so it's about £13 quid a week (with boxes of cheap papers from the market). I gave up tailor-mades when they hit about £4 a pack.

Not doing the extra hours is easy, I get annoyed that I'm basically working for no benefit to my (as pointed out - poverty) lifestyle. Isn't the point of having a job to a) be a useful member of society and b) Earn money to improve your living conditions.

 

[DaGaffer]

The big clue there is the line about employment agency fees. That shouldn't be your problem, and they're taking the piss. Don't get sacked but look hard for something else, because on the evidence presented, they're going to screw you over.

 

[Talyn]

If they offer time off in lieu of overtime make sure it's commensurate to the OT you've done (so Saturday's are traditionally 1.5* daily rate). If they offer overtime at these rates I'd bite their hand off.

They offer nothing.

Our of interest what do you do (or what is it the job role specifies you should do) and just how much are they paying you? Have they offered training as they're paying you (apparently) sod all? If so have they come through on their promise.

I'm just a basic support monkey - 1st/2nd line (although there is only actually my boss and me, so I do pretty much everything)

What could you do if you weren't working were you are? Could you contract for significantly better pay?

I've been a support monkey since '98, been contracting since '00, and never had any issues until unemployment hit. I originally contracting for this job, and just wish now that I'd not taken the permie role when they offered. I'm just struggling to find a contract at the moment, cause every monkey is going for every contract.

I've no idea what sort of other benefits you were on when you were on the dole but if you're paying off the same amount of debt you were then and have the same #me# money you can't be on a great deal right now as iirc a friend who was on the dole got £57 and some pennies a week. So that's basically paying off the debt one week a month from your figures and then 3 weeks of that sort of money.

That was pretty much the story with me, one weeks money was debts, the other 3 was everything else. Thing is, I'm now down to £3200 left in debt, and if it weren't for £200 a month fuel, I'd clear it all in just over a year, rather than the 4+ it'll take at the moment.

Ofc you could have spent that 1500 gbp on the sort of car that makes Oil Barons jizz in their pants when you pass and that's where the cash is going but you don't sound like that sort of person (while I am ).

And you'd be right, I got a little S plate Seat Ibiza for £600, and the rest went on tax, insurance, service and so on.

 

[Bahumat]

That agency shit is a lie. you won't get a 2k pay rise as they will find something to screw you on. Unless it's in writing, never trust a verbal promise. I do 2nd level IT support and we get overtime for out of hours work.

Bear this in mind. I worked at a shit hole like yours. Work your hours and no more unless paid. They abuse your good faith and you seriously don't want to progress in a company like that.

Look for another job whilst you are there. Don't be afraid to lie to better your skill set. Whats the worst that can happen? You're found out and so hopelessly shit you fail the probation...we have had some retards at our place who lied and were kept on for much longer then they should of.

I did not know active directory before my current job. Fuck man when agencies asked me and I said I had no experience they never called back. I was too honest. You could learn all we do in active directory in a couple of days!

 

[Chilly]

I'd be very wary of leaving employment altogether. Yes, you're on shite money now but the experience and skills you're building up on the job (presumably?) will lead on to better things in the future.

 

[Genedril]

I once went permie at a place where I contracted and that was the biggest mistake I ever made . Though agencies do charge a whacking 'finders' fee in these instances and normally the applicant does have to take the hit on their initial wages.

The desktop support monkeys that I work around get paid between 16-20 gbp an hour. The 1st line (monkeys monkey) is a permie and I think he's on about 24k. You take a huge hit when you go perm but the upside is (supposedly) the benefits and training package you get with that (though you obviously don't). BTW I work in Brizzle so it's not like there's London weighting going on here.

When I said "if they offer" I meant after you started working to rule btw .

If you can be (have been in the past / are training to be etc) better than a support monkey I'd not stay in that role for too long as a permie. People tend to get pigeon holed, fairly or not, and that makes it hard to get out again .

The one benefit this jobs is giving you is that you're employed. That makes you more employable and you should take advantage of that. Stay where you are but work to rule as much as you can, but while you do it apply for anything you could reasonably do perm or contract. It's been so long I don't know what basic support monkey do these days but if you're working on servers highlight that when looking and applying for jobs. Getting a friend who knows a little about the types of roles you're going for to check your CV is also handy. As is keeping a 'master' CV and butchering that to make role specific CV's when you apply.

I'm sure you're already doing that mind so next post I'll teach you to suck eggs.

Attempting not to sound too mawkish but I feel for you. You're doing everything that people generally say you should and have found that you're in exactly the same position you were when you sat around looking for work which is: paid not a lot at all (for all those that think benefits claimants live the life of Riley on megabucks).

 

[Talyn]

Well, if learning more skills includes "How much freeware can we get away with?" and having to learn Openoffice, then yes, I'm learning more skills.

 

[Bahumat]

There is no harm saying you are studying an mcitp course either. Makes you sound like you are trying to better your skill set.

Also if you are out of work and they ask "so what have you been doing all this time?" or "with your time out of work, how have you kept your IT knowledge up to date?" It's harder to answer.

 

[Talyn]

BTW I work in Brizzle so it's not like there's London weighting going on here.

See, I've been thinking of looking back down there anyway. I'm a Cheltenham guy, and there was a point a few years back when the work dried up in Bristol, so I ended up moving to Wolverhampton as I have friends here, and can commute to Birmingham centre. Now it seems the tides have shifted again, and there's more work in your area, where it's dried up in the midlands.

I just didn't fancy moving again. I'm old now, and wanted to aviod that. The other option open to me, is to find a place in Tamworth, thus saving me £200 a month in commuting petrol, I just didn't want to have the hassle of moving. Oh, and that I can't afford to save up deposit/first month up front.

I am looking way down in the bowels of Cornwall though - mum & dad retired down there, they're getting on now, and I'm at the point where I worry about getting 'that phone call'. So if anyone has contacts way south, I'm interested (I've only managed to find 1 site that deals with Cornwall jobs, so any links will be appreciated.)

There is no harm saying you are studying an mcitp course either. Makes you sound like you are trying to better your skill set.

Also if you are out of work and they ask "so what have you been doing all this time?" or "with your time out of work, how have you kept your IT knowledge up to date?" It's harder to answer.

That's a fair point - during my last stint off, I retook math & science GCSEs - partly to see if I could still study, once I have time and money, I'm looking at an OU course - and partly for something to do (and for those interested - Maths = A, Science = A*) - so should worst case scenario happen, I'll find something to do (although it may not be IT related)

And I'd have time for doing the voluenteering I went for - STEM - Science, Tech, Engineering, Maths (this is what i'd like to do more of, as I'd be quite happy not doing IT anymore).

On another side note - Sainsburys are building a store rigth out the back of my house, it's due within 3 years, so I'm thinking I just need to hold on, see if I can get a shelf stacking job, and I'll have time (1 minute walk to work) and money (no silly vehicular expenses, bus travel expenses etc) to be able to get that degree I've been after.

 

[Ch3tan]

They are fucking you, fuck them back slightly.

Ask to speak to HR / your line manager. Point out to them that you cannot afford to live unless they increase your pay by that 2k now. Also work to rule, and document it, put it in writing that you are not prepared to do free overtime as an obligation, and then if they try and get rid of you for that it's constructive dismissal. You may find after the first chat that they actually value you and will pay the extra rather than loose you and have to train someone else again, and you won't care about the 2nd part.

 

[Scouse]

The next issue is that they don't pay overtime, and they don't give time in lieu. My contracted hours are 37.5 a week, but I generally work through my half hour (unpaid) lunch, so I usually do 40 hours. They expect 40-50 hours (they call it 'professional working hours') the extra being unpaid and time you'll never see again.

Professional working week my arse. Anyone who regularly works for free (and by regularly I mean stays later than they need more than a couple of times a month) is a fool.

All you have to sell is your time. Value yourself.

Don't be a nob about it. Don't strictly work to rule - but if you do an hour over one day take an hour the next.

If the boss has a problem then they're taking the piss. Calmly tell them you do your hours and produce quality work. Ask them if they've a specific problem they need help with and tell them you'd be happy to help with that, but if it's just "we've got a lot on" then don't let yourself be bullied into it.

Your time translates into money for the director. Period.

Of course, show willing for the first 3-6 months, but after that make sure you're not in the habit of working for free.


BTW- you shouldn't be "grateful" for a job - you deserve one. Capitalism should provide decently-paid employment as a very basic.

Ask to speak to HR / your line manager

If you're pushing for the pay they said that they'd pay you then go for it.

Other than that, avoid HR like the plague. Remember, they work for the company and in the company's interests - not in yours.

 

[Moriath]

better and easier to get a job to move from a job than to get a job from the dole imo

just do what you need to and keep your job while applying for new ones in jan .. lots of ppl move jobs in the new year so should be some vacancies around then tbh

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Professional working week my arse. Anyone who regularly works for free (and by regularly I mean stays later than they need more than a couple of times a month) is a fool.

I'm a fool because I work the appropriate amount of hours to get the work done to ensure our customer base gets as good a quality game as we can produce am I? Some of us take pride in our work you know. I don't have to stay late or work overtime but if I and many others didn't, the game would be in a lot worse state. This is applicable for a lot of companies. Amazing how some people expect high quality products year on year and if they don't get it then the company hasn't worked hard enough, and when working hard we're regarded as fools?

What a stupid thing to say.

 

[Aoami]

I'm a fool because I work the appropriate amount of hours to get the work done to ensure our customer base gets as good a quality game as we can produce am I? Some of us take pride in our work you know. I don't have to stay late or work overtime but if I and many others didn't, the game would be in a lot worse state. This is applicable for a lot of companies. Amazing how some people expect high quality products year on year and if they don't get it then the company hasn't worked hard enough, and when working hard we're regarded as fools?

What a stupid thing to say.

In that instance, it's the companies responsibility to sort it out, not yours. If everyone is working unpaid overtime, they should hire more people, not expect their staff to work for free. Chumps like you are working extra hours for free and moan about people with no jobs claiming benefits (possibly, i have no evidence to back this up and dont care to find any).

 

[Shagrat]

There's a difference between taking pride in your work and putting extra time in occasionally to meet a deadline and your company just taking the piss and expecting it all the time though.

 

[Ch3tan]

Yes, a company expecting unpaid overtime is taking the piss. It's different if it's offered by the workers because they care.

 

[Scouse]

I'm a fool because I work the appropriate amount of hours to get the work done

Soz, Waz, but yep.

The appropriate hours to work are the ones you've been contracted to do. Anyone who works for free creates an expectation that others should do the same - and others may actually enjoy their home life enough to want to spend more of their waking life there than at work. Also - you're denying other people a job - your company is making money out of you and the incredibly well paid directors and, if it's public, shareholders are increasing their profits off the backs of the workers that do that work.

Companies are taking the piss when you work for free - and you can sure as hell bet that upper management wouldn't do it (management tend to get paid so well that they don't get overtime - but that's factored into their renumeration in the first place).

I'm not saying don't take pride in your work and I'm not saying don't follow through what's necessary - but if you do it, unpaid, by default, then you're a fool IMO.

There's a difference between taking pride in your work and putting extra time in occasionally to meet a deadline and your company just taking the piss and expecting it all the time though.

Yup.

I also find that those who do a lot of unpaid overtime get really uppity when people who want to do their contracted hours leave on time.

Personally, I'm a contractor, so no pay = no work. Simple.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Its always easier to get work when you currently have a job. Not easy, just easier. I think in the short term there will probably have to be an element of sucking it up. It might help to reframe your thinking as focusing on longer term goals.

As to how you play it at work, thats up to what you are comfortable and what you feel you can live with. Moving on to your next job, they are not allowed to give you a negative reference however there are ways to respond to a reference request that will infer it without actually breaking the law.

Have all references to 'appropriate' hours been put in emails or any other written form? If so, make a copy of these, keep them *off* the company system and hold on to them for later use.

Because what they are ultimately doing is bullying in the workplace. Applying pressure to get free work out of you.

Stepping stone though, hopefully get you to a better place

 

[Tom]

It's only about 36 miles, but it's M6 south at rush hour (and then M6 north for the way home). Once I hit the M42, it's a breeze. (I live in Wolves, work in Tamworth)

I was going to suggest cycling but 72 miles a day is too much. Is there anybody, friends, family, with whom you could car share?

 

[Job]

Yes. you've hit the wall that causes so many to stay on the dole, you can always do a bit of work on the sly,
decorating, running errands and the like and that would bring in more cash than most jobs after you take everything into account.
If you write it all down it's a fucking joke.

Get a job, pay tax, national insurance, responsibility and pay for everything, dentist, prescriptions, poll tax and walk around doffing your cap to the boss in case he decides to fire you.

Stay on dole and not give a fuck, no tax, no national insurance, no poll tax, no responsibility, no house to lose, walk into the job centre and say to the staff 'what the fuck are you looking at' and still get your money.
Get done for drugs, get arrested for affray, post pictures of yourself wanking off on facebook, who cares.
Get pissed all day and rip the shit out of anyone you like on any public forum..so what.
All of these things could and has got people fired.
I'm amazed anyone works if they earn less than 25 grand a year.

 

[Gumbo]

There's loads of bollocks being typed in this thread, I gave up reading the replies half way through and went straight to this reply so I apologise for any repetition.

First up, I'm an employer, so I am writing from that point of view.

You have worked there less than a year? There is no such thing as unfair dismissal in the first year, so if you start working to rule, in an environment where no one else is, they can bin you really easily. This may be what you want.

Second, you're not going to get a payrise for doing the same job, especially at the moment where it's an employers market.

Is there any chance of moving up the ladder at this place? Push hard for it if there is, ask them what you need to do, take a course, work extra hours, whatever it takes. That route leads to more take home. At my last job, I started in 2003 as a phone bod on £14kish, worked my arse off, sometimes 20 hours a week over contracted hours. I earned bonuses, but more importantly caught the attention of highers up as a hard worker willing to put myself out. 2004 promotion to Assistant Manager above a couple of others who started at the same time as me, £6k payrise. 2006 Manager sleeps with a driver, has to leave the company, they didn't interview, straight to me for his job, £30k and a car. The same guys who started in 2003 with me, but work to their hours, and never put themselves out, are still there. (A few months after getting the last promotion I left to rescue the family business and am still there, not quite back at the level I was in 2006.)

Of course if you're going to be in this same role no matter what, you're wasting your time and would be better off getting work in the golden arches, closer to home.

In short, push for promotion where you are, but if that's not an option, keep looking and applying elsewhere. To be honest, keep doing that anyway.

If you left this job without another to go to, or got yourself fired, it would look pretty bad on your cv, so avoid that.

And quit smoking ffs.

 

[Dreamor]

Hey Talyn mate, long time no speak!

One thing that is repeating above, and I totally agree with, is do the job.. to the line, find something else. Moving is a pain in the ass but if you can get a better way of living, jump with both feet. Its often scary, but do it.

I moved out of the UK a year ago, scared the crap outta me, but I don't regret it one bit. It has had its challenges, but everything in life does.

One thing about not being on the dole, is how it looks on paper. Remember, CVs are plentiful about right now. The only thing to stand out in a CV is the work experience and jobs you have done. Group fit is in everyones mind these days, good guys do go up the hiring ladder, but it takes determination and dedication to look for jobs every day.

If you want s reference, and something I don't offer often, I feel I know you well enough to do that and help you out. Verbal or written, either option is yours. IM me and we can sort something out.

Also, current company is looking for people, not sure what we have exactly since I travel a lot, but hit me up on IM or Skype, happy to help you out.

In this day and age, use every contact and ask every friend you have for what jobs companies have open.