Rant Employment or not employment?

[DaGaffer]

Anyone who regularly works for free (and by regularly I mean stays later than they need more than a couple of times a month) is a fool.

That depends what you do. If you're on a managerial track you won't get very far if you play the nine to five game and you don't get paid for the hours. Right or wrong that's just a fact of life. In a line role, different story.

 

[Job]

Oh and more bollocks, fix many boilers for landlords who are renting to DHSS, knock around at 10am, doley is
in bed playing COD on 50 inch screen, with some slapper making his breakfast.
Repair costs 300 quid, he just shrugs, landlords paying..always someone else paying.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Yes, a company expecting unpaid overtime is taking the piss. It's different if it's offered by the workers because they care.

This. Some people have wildly missed the mark here. It's not like I do 12 hours a day all year round ffs.

 

[Moriath]

Yes, a company expecting unpaid overtime is taking the piss. It's different if it's offered by the workers because they care.

Not true

When you reach a certain lvl in a company you are expected to have any overtime as part of the job .. i have to travel over weekend and take calls during the night and early in the morning without overtime ... and that is standard in the global IT industry.

You cant just say its taking the piss ... overtime is only paid up to a certain grade level in my experience . uk and american companies.

I also agree that everyone is expendable and you shouldnt do it to the detriment of your circumstance because you can always be replaced.

the OP on the other hand is it seems in a low status job and they are taking the piss a bit but its a good stepping stone to a different more responsible employer.

Sweeping statments can always be called bullshit ch3

 

[Everz]

See, I've been thinking of looking back down there anyway. I'm a Cheltenham guy, .

To knit pick on this.. there seems to be a jobglut in Cheltenham currently, alot of new places opened up but also alot of firms are recruiting. I got my job down here within a week after searching around the West Midlands for months.

 

[Exioce]

Not true

When you reach a certain lvl in a company you are expected to have any overtime as part of the job .. i have to travel over weekend and take calls during the night and early in the morning without overtime ... and that is standard in the global IT industry.

You cant just say its taking the piss ... overtime is only paid up to a certain grade level in my experience . uk and american companies.

I also agree that everyone is expendable and you shouldnt do it to the detriment of your circumstance because you can always be replaced.

the OP on the other hand is it seems in a low status job and they are taking the piss a bit but its a good stepping stone to a different more responsible employer.

Sweeping statments can always be called bullshit ch3

If you're regularly taking calls in the middle of the night you should expect to receive an on-call allowance.

 

[Moriath]

they arnt unexpecyted fix this calls they are calls for meetings with ppl in aussie or usa or hong kong etc .. not like i have to wait in on call ... i have meetings ... like i say when you work globally you are expected and the money is included in your wage etc etc

 

[Tom]

That depends what you do. If you're on a managerial track you won't get very far if you play the nine to five game and you don't get paid for the hours. Right or wrong that's just a fact of life. In a line role, different story.

A good manager will have finished his work well within his allotted hours.

 

[Job]

My ex first line manager in BT worked his ass off, judging by the amount of work he brought in from home and the stack of emails he sent to your work email ,often up till 10pm.
The guy must have been working 10 hours a day 7 days a week.
But he loved it, he revelled in being important and besieged you with every tiny detail of bureaucracy, which had the simple result of the staff spending 30% of their time answering his emails.
He got excited when he had a form to fill in and couldn't understand why we didn't.
For all his input, BT could have just shown him the door and things would have run smoother, fucking middle management..pointless.

 

[Raven]

A good manager will have finished his work well within his allotted hours.

Actually a good manager will occasionally have to work late, unless he has exactly the same workload every day and can plan his day to the minute. Which is pretty unlikely.

...anyway. Working a little extra now and again is expected when you are salaried, however day in, day out is piss taking. If there is obviously too much work for one person, and that person is doing all they can, then they should hire more people.

I wouldn't fuck them off entirely for several reasons, you need their reference, especially after being out of work for so long. It is also much easier to get work when you are in work.

If this job is such a ball ache then maybe it would be better to get something that pays less but is substantially closer. Same money, less hassle. At least in the short term while you find something more permanent or develop some contacts.

 

[Chilly]

I think the greater your wage and position in a firm, the less likely it is that you can get by doing 9-5. Do you think for a second a CEO doesnt work every day, probably for longer than most people do in their five days?

I'm in the position where I get on call for weekend disaster work and am occasionally get asked to or voluntarily work late to get something sorted out. I think this is absolutely fine given my position and the work I do.

 

[DaGaffer]

A good manager will have finished his work well within his allotted hours.

Don't talk out of your arse Tom. When have you been a manager?

 

[Job]

It all depends on simple give and take, I have often answered my mobile while on holiday because work wanted some technical help, but when they throw it back in your face at a later date because you didn't answer your phone for 30 mins, while on a late lunch..that pisses you off.

 

[Tom]

Don't talk out of your arse Tom. When have you been a manager?

On quite a few occasions as it happens, although I don't need a title.

 

[SilverHood]

It all depends on simple give and take, I have often answered my mobile while on holiday because work wanted some technical help, but when they throw it back in your face at a later date because you didn't answer your phone for 30 mins, while on a late lunch..that pisses you off.

My fave so was having to answer calls while on holiday abroad (about 120 minutes in total over a 1 week period), then getting a reminder that my company mobile phone bill was extremely high and that I should control my usage. At least I have a company phone, they used to make us use our private mobiles. A 5 min call from India / HK would cost me $30 USD. This happened 7 times in 1 week, and my phone bill for the month was over $200 USD. Said I wasn't prepared to do on call support unless they either reimbursed me for the calls or provided a company phone.

As for OP... stick it out while looking for another job. Always easier to get hired when you have a job already. Do your hours, and if there's no emergency, walk away when you're done. Lots of work items get prioritised as "urgent" or "must be done today". In reality, they're only urgent in the sense that the end user managed their time poorly and needs to catch up to meet deadlines. If you work for free at a shitty salary with no time off in lieu or end of year bonus compensation, you devalue your own time.

 

[Scouse]

I think the greater your wage and position in a firm, the less likely it is that you can get by doing 9-5. Do you think for a second a CEO doesnt work every day, probably for longer than most people do in their five days?

Yeah. Bob Diamond has it so hard. He'll have to slave away at that menial job he hates until he's, oooh, six months older...

 

[Scouse]

A good manager will have finished his work well within his allotted hours.

I agree (with the caveat that occasionally he won't and some overtime is normal).

The reason it doesn't happen is that 4 out of 5 people are incompetent and middle management have the piss taken out of them just like the rest of the scum.

Only the top win.

I have often answered my mobile while on holiday because work wanted some technical help

Mug

when they throw it back in your face at a later date because you didn't answer your phone for 30 mins, while on a late lunch..that pisses you off.

Yeah. It's 'cause you've been done over - and it happens to everyone who lets themselves be taken for a mug.

Do you honestly think that work values you?

Hahahahaha. N' stuff

 

[rynnor]

Harsh but true - on overtime for managment grades - if its a one off fair enough but if its something thats planned to happen in the middle of the night etc. they should still pay overtime or extremely generous time off in lieue.

I knew a guy who would do support in the middle of the night then come in and do a days work and look wrecked - the company treated him like dirt because he was basically a doormat even though he underpinned the whole department. I finally convinced him to go contracting and he's never looked back - he still works too many hours but he now gets paid well for them.

 

[old.Tohtori]

If you do extra work that isn't in your contract, without pay or paid leave, you've got one of two things;

A: Shitty contract that doesn't have exact hours, or clauses on overtime.
B: Way too usable a persona.

If B, please feel free to send your applicatons to...

Whenever i'm off the clock, so to speak, i never answer any phocall from work, or even work people unless i plan on meeting for brews. On holiday, my monitor clearly states "Gone fishin', don't bother callin'"

 

[Chilly]

Yeah. Bob Diamond has it so hard. He'll have to slave away at that menial job he hates until he's, oooh, six months older...

Bob Diamond probably worked his bollocks off. I'm not discussing the right or wrongness of mega salaries - but I bet you he worked way more hours than most people.

 

[DaGaffer]

If you do extra work that isn't in your contract, without pay or paid leave, you've got one of two things;

A: Shitty contract that doesn't have exact hours, or clauses on overtime.
B: Way too usable a persona.

If B, please feel free to send your applicatons to...

Whenever i'm off the clock, so to speak, i never answer any phocall from work, or even work people unless i plan on meeting for brews. On holiday, my monitor clearly states "Gone fishin', don't bother callin'"

You won't find any managerial contract in the UK (or the US), that doesn't include the line "...be expected to work outside normal employment hours when necessary" (or something similar). Its a fact of life. I don't tend to stay late at the office regularly these days, and I don't hold with companies that encourage "presenteeism" (where leaving the office at 5.30 gets tuts from the boss), but I do sometimes take work home with me, I do sometimes get the late-night call (if only to keep me informed if there's a site problem) and I do sometimes have to have out-of-hours conference calls, and I do sometimes work late. Frankly, if you're a manager and you're doing a job that's so repetitive that you can plan and achieve a complete 9-to-5 existence, you're in a pretty fucking boring job.

And yes, I worked long unpaid hours when I was climbing the greasy pole, because that's what you do if you want to have a career. I'm not a techie, didn't enjoy "consulting" (contracting for suits), so if I want the big bucks, unpaid overtime to a lesser or greater degree is the price I pay.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Frankly, if you're a manager and you're doing a job that's so repetitive that you can plan and achieve a complete 9-to-5 existence, you're in a pretty fucking boring job.

Or good at your job

It's all a matter of dicussing your contract and pay to reflect it. If you do more work for same pay, you're just bending over.

 

[Scouse]

Bob Diamond probably worked his bollocks off. I'm not discussing the right or wrongness of mega salaries - but I bet you he worked way more hours than most people.

I'm not disputing that, despite the 9 million he pocketed last year.

His job is not menial though - a point I made in my post - so it's not hard for him to get a lot of fulfillment and emotional satisfaction from it. And if we're actually going to argue and get somewhere I'd like the facts shown in the video posted in earlier in the strikes thread to be taken into account.

I feel no sympathy for the hours Bob Diamond works because he A) gets paid a fuckload and; B) loves his job because it's not menial.

The vast majority of people can say neither about theirs.

You won't find any managerial contract in the UK (or the US), that doesn't include the line "...

Yep. I've already adressed this point. Most managers are expected to do unpaid overtime - but it's reflected in their salary (to some extent). And you're happy to accept that as you're on the ladder-climb competition - fair enough.

The thread itself was primarily about non-managerial types - and doing unpaid hours makes them mugs.

Other people decided to bring management and CEO's into it...

 

[Tom]

You won't find any managerial contract in the UK (or the US), that doesn't include the line "...be expected to work outside normal employment hours when necessary" (or something similar). Its a fact of life. I don't tend to stay late at the office regularly these days, and I don't hold with companies that encourage "presenteeism" (where leaving the office at 5.30 gets tuts from the boss), but I do sometimes take work home with me, I do sometimes get the late-night call (if only to keep me informed if there's a site problem) and I do sometimes have to have out-of-hours conference calls, and I do sometimes work late. Frankly, if you're a manager and you're doing a job that's so repetitive that you can plan and achieve a complete 9-to-5 existence, you're in a pretty fucking boring job.

And yes, I worked long unpaid hours when I was climbing the greasy pole, because that's what you do if you want to have a career. I'm not a techie, didn't enjoy "consulting" (contracting for suits), so if I want the big bucks, unpaid overtime to a lesser or greater degree is the price I pay.

The key word there is work - as in "perform a task and receive financial compensation for it".

 

[old.Tohtori]

Most managers are expected to do unpaid overtime - but it's reflected in their salary

Quite, so technically you do get paid for it

 

[Scouse]

Something else about jobs and why CEO's have a great life and the rest suffer.

They love their job.

I can't remember a job where I've worked for someone else, ever, that could be described as "fun".

 

[Punishment]

Woot just got my first 8 hour security gig after my Instructor was impressed with my level of interest during the evening course i just finished

 

[DaGaffer]

I can't remember a job where I've worked for someone else, ever, that could be described as "fun".

Sucks for you. I've hated a couple of jobs in my career, been bored in a couple more, and absolutely loved a few others. I'd be well fucking depressed if I had to do work I didn't enjoy.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I can't remember a job where I've worked for someone else, ever, that could be described as "fun".

Shame, i've never really worked in a job that wasn't. Game industry so, while annoying as hell at times, daily grind like the rest, it's still enjoyable.

 

[DaGaffer]

The key word there is work - as in "perform a task and receive financial compensation for it".

There's no dictionary definition that says work requires direct financial compensation. And certainly no definition of work that says all wages have to be explictly tied to the number of hours worked.