Politics Election 2019

[Bodhi]

Train drivers' union warns strikes could escalate escalate to what? no trains running to no trains running?

They find more sectors to piss off rather than just Retail and Hospitality?

 

[Scouse]

Train drivers' union warns strikes could escalate escalate to what? no trains running to no trains running?

Longer, more complete walkouts.

They're currently being offered (with inflation at 12%) an 8% pay cut for this year and probably about even for next year.

 

[Embattle]

As I've said before the government should of automated the trains years ago.

 

[Zarjazz]

As I've said before the government should of automated the trains years ago.

That has always been the long term plan, same for the London Tube, but to reach that point means in the intermediate period keeping your existing drivers working despite knowing their jobs will soon be deleted.

 

[Embattle]

That has always been the long term plan, same for the London Tube, but to reach that point means in the intermediate period keeping your existing drivers working despite knowing their jobs will soon be deleted.

Indeed if they weren't planning on not working quite a bit more this year, also the other issue used quite often in strikes is working conditions and terms which isn't just cover for wanting more money but also to block automation. As an example we've seen this used against the closure of ticket offices.

 

[Raven]

You can't automate repairs, or guards, or ticket office staff.

Although, my uncle works on the railway, works night. If the plant doesn't arrive for the job they are booked for, they go home, no other staff to tell them to do otherwise. They get paid anyway. Happens quite a lot, apparently.

 

[Embattle]

You can't automate repairs, or guards, or ticket office staff.

Although, my uncle works on the railway, works night. If the plant doesn't arrive for the job they are booked for, they go home, no other staff to tell them to do otherwise. They get paid anyway. Happens quite a lot, apparently.

You can improve automation in those areas but the nub of the discussion was drivers which we already have an example of and the idea that we'll have automated cars before trains is insane.

 

[Ormorof]

You can't automate repairs, or guards, or ticket office staff.

Although, my uncle works on the railway, works night. If the plant doesn't arrive for the job they are booked for, they go home, no other staff to tell them to do otherwise. They get paid anyway. Happens quite a lot, apparently.

Theres no ticket offices or barriers here, amazingly almost everyone still pays

 

[Raven]

Theres no ticket offices or barriers here, amazingly almost everyone still pays

The British are chancers.

 

[Aoami]

You can't automate repairs, or guards, or ticket office staff.

Although, my uncle works on the railway, works night. If the plant doesn't arrive for the job they are booked for, they go home, no other staff to tell them to do otherwise. They get paid anyway. Happens quite a lot, apparently.

Can't remember the last time I saw ticket office staff!

 

[Scouse]

The British are chancers.

You treat people like kids, they act like kids.

There's gas barbecues in parks all over Sydney. You can rock up, cook, eat, take your shit and leave.

They're all clean and not vandalised. And that's the Australians - our criminals!

 

[Tom]

You don't need to spend money automating trains, it isn't like there's 35 million of them (like there are vehicles on the road). But if you do want to automate them, that means you have to modify every single platform in the country to allow level boarding, or you're discriminating against disabled people because there's nobody to bring a ramp out. Or you upgrade every single carriage in the country with proper disabled access. And that's before you upgrade every single railway station in the country with disabled access (many, many of them have none). These things should be done anyway, but the government apparently wants to save money, so if they're not doing it now there's no fucking chance they'll do it later. Which means you're happy to discriminate.

And what do you do if there's a fight on the train? Or a medical emergency? Who deals with that? Right now, the guard can contact the driver, who can contact central control to arrange for emergency services at the next stop. Or they can move trains out of the way so the train with the emergency gets a free pass to get to where it needs to be (near a hospital) asap. Is an automated train going to be able to do that? What if someone pulls the emergency cord and stops the train, who determines if it's safe to start it back up? Someone in a call centre?

Nope.

 

[Scouse]

You've got the @Embattle disagree of "I hadn't thought about any of that but you're still wrong" there @Tom.

Automated cars will happen because each car will have an operator to make those decisions.

 

[Aoami]

There are loads of driverless train systems all over the world though. Some obviously choose to staff them regardless but others won't.

 

[Scouse]

There are loads of driverless train systems all over the world though. Some obviously choose to staff them regardless but others won't.

There's hardly any that run without a driver in the cab. There's a handful (GOA4) and they're use-case restricted.

 

[Raven]

Automating trains isn't the same thing as automating the entire system.

There is no reason for the actual trains to be driver driven. They use a set track, a set quantity of trains all going to pre-set destinations at pre-set times, with very few unknowns, weather and so on, that is all system warning based anyway.

 

[Aoami]

Right, but the article that started this convo is about drivers, not rail workers in general.

 

[Gwadien]

Right, but the article that started this convo is about drivers, not rail workers in general.

Isn't that the issue with the strikes though? People thinking its just the ez pz life drivers and not the rest of the staff?

 

[Raven]

Isn't that the issue with the strikes though? People thinking its just the ez pz life drivers and not the rest of the staff?

Pretty much, though both unions are now striking.

 

[Tom]

There are loads of driverless train systems all over the world though. Some obviously choose to staff them regardless but others won't.

On railway systems designed for that. Our railway network was mostly built 150+ years ago and each private company that built it used their own designs. Different signalling systems, different tunnel sizes, different curves, different methods of construction. About the only commonality is the track width.

 

[Ormorof]

In contrast Helsinki metro should be the simplest system to automate, single system, single owner, trains go east or west, splitting lines only in the east, platforms are all uniform, trains are all the same

And they still cocked it up 😂 now they have announced they will proceed with automation and cant hire anyone to work as drivers in meantime (would you take a job you knew would be defunct in a few years?)

 

[Scouse]

There are very very few "driverless" train systems in the world for a reason.

Blighty's rail system generally isn't suitable.

 

[Raven]

There are very very few "driverless" train systems in the world for a reason.

Blighty's rail system generally isn't suitable.

ofc it is, long track, the odd tunnel, very few stations (with automation, that could be expanded). Speed restrictions already exist on tracks, different bends in the track is a non issue. All the track is the same gauge and all the trains are designed to fit into our tunnels (the reason we don't have double-decker trains like everyone else) capacity would be increased, so would safety and efficiency.

It's just a load of moving parts and signalling that is already mostly computer controlled, or at least remote controlled.

 

[Tom]

We don't even have consistent signalling in this country, several different systems are used. We'll never have driverless trains on the mainline.

And what's the point anyway? What would the improvements be? Would a driverless train be able to correctly identify a landslip? Would it spot a tree branch hanging low? Or a damaged fence, or kids stood on a bridge up to no good?

There are much bigger issues to be dealt with, like the astonishingly poor accessibility of many UK rail stations for one. Or the number of stations that have no cycle parking, or cycle infrastructure connecting them to local communities. And the number of defunct railways that could be brought back into use, even just as guided busways, or cycleways. Driverless trains is a distraction.

 

[Scouse]

I believe KPMG said it would cost upwards of 7 billion to fully automate.

At that cost you go "what is the point"? Spend that 7bn somewhere else more important.

 

[Ormorof]

7 billion is peanuts in government spending terms though

 

[Raven]

It's roughly a 5th of the cost of a single track and trace ap.

 

[DaGaffer]

I believe KPMG said it would cost upwards of 7 billion to fully automate.

At that cost you go "what is the point"? Spend that 7bn somewhere else more important.

7bn capexed for 10 years, 700m a year. What's the drivers' wage bill?

 

[Bodhi]

It's roughly a 5th of the cost of a single track and trace ap.

An app which didn't even work anyway!

Good job it didn't cost £37 billion then innit.

 

[Tom]

7bn capexed for 10 years, 700m a year. What's the drivers' wage bill?

That's almost as much as is paid out annually in profits to the shareholders of the UK's train operating companies.