Politics Ed Miliband

[ECA]

lol, please do try. You have the debating skills of a fruit basket.

Why do you hate fruit baskets?

 

[Aoami]

1 step closer

 

[Ch3tan]

1 step closer to 5 more years of stable, non labour government yes.

 

[Zede]

you gotta love the kids who have a b s o l u t e l y no experience of life under the Tories.

 

[cHodAX]

you gotta love the kids who have a b s o l u t e l y no experience of life under the Tories.

Indeed.

 

[Ch3tan]

Zede - how old are you? Do you have any idea how old I am? Or are you just trolling as usual.

 

[Wij]

you gotta love the kids who have a b s o l u t e l y no experience of life under the Tories.

Plenty of Labour and Conservative experience here thanks.

 

[Job]

When Maggie took over, this country was utterly, fuckin broke ass, in the shit, about to be bought out by the arabs.
She just took one look at the 'books' and started cutting everything, she fucked over just about everyone, especially the miners, if she hadn't though Ethiopia would be sending us aid by now.
It wasn't nice, but living on the edge of a cliff in a nice warm car you don't own that hasn't got any brakes wasn't the way forward.

 

[Ezteq]

I voted for the steve millerband but he didn't get much of a look in

 

[cHodAX]

I voted for the steve millerband but he didn't get much of a look in

Don't play 'The Joker' young lady!

 

[Himse]

you gotta love the kids who have a b s o l u t e l y no experience of life under the Tories.

Yeah i've lived most of my life under Labour, and its been pretty shit to me.

What have i got to lose?

I'm not a kid, 20, but still Labour has been in government for a long part of my life.

From what i've heard, Tories end up saving a bunch of money, helping the economy get back on its feet etc, only for a Labour government to come in, waste it all, then get voted out again, rinse & repeat? Im no expert so correct me if i'm wrong!

 

[Ezteq]

Don't play 'The Joker' young lady!

well tbh I've been from phoenix arazona all the way to dacota, philidelphia, altanta and LA and to me he seemed the obvious choice, abracadabra, simple as that.

 

[cHodAX]

Yeah i've lived most of my life under Labour, and its been pretty shit to me.

What have i got to lose?

I'm not a kid, 20, but still Labour has been in government for a long part of my life.

Sorry Himse you are a good lad but you really have no idea then, the 80's and early 90's were horrific for most people living outside the south east of England. Labour have made alot of mistakes in the last 7 years but life was still much better under them for the majority of this country than it was under previous Tory governments.

 

[Himse]

Sorry Himse you are a good lad but you really have no idea then, the 80's and early 90's were horrific for most people living outside the south east of England. Labour have made alot of mistakes in the last 7 years but life was still much better under them for the majority of this country than it was under previous Tory governments.

I see! Thank you for the enlightening!

I mean hasn't it always been Tory has the higher earners intrest at heart?
I think thats fair enough, but i also agree with people on lower incomes shouldn't be shagged either. There needs to be a balance, I personally don't agree with people who have done well in life being taxed 50% of their wage..
Then again, don't agree with people on under 20k a year being taxed so heavily either!

OFC that's not the only issue, but tbh i think that whoever leads this country will be just as useless as the next.

 

[Bugz]

Cho lets see a good argument from you containing all the things that Tory did wrong and how Labour avoided such issues in their power-terms.

Granted my knowledge of the Thatcher era isn't particularly great as I honed in more on the Golden Era for my degree but I still know a reasonable amount.

 

[cHodAX]

Cho lets see a good argument from you containing all the things that Tory did wrong and how Labour avoided such issues in their power-terms.

Granted my knowledge of the Thatcher era isn't particularly great as I honed in more on the Golden Era for my degree but I still know a reasonable amount.

Bugz, all I can tell you is how it impacted upon the life of my family and the people around us but first let me be clear. Not everything Thatcher did was wrong, however many of her policies directly hurt the manufacturing heartlands of this country. Yes reform was badly needed and the unions needed de-clawing somewhat but it was taken to extremes and what resulted has scarred communities for the last 25 years. Honestly, go visit Rotherham, Rochdale, Sheffield, Barnsley, large parts of the Midlands and speak to the locals. All of them will have their own stories about how their communities were ripped apart by Tory economic policies and have never recovered.

People from the South East usually find it hard to understand why most northern people hate the Tories so much, it is hard for them to see that much of the South East was protected from the worst of what happened, mainly because of the huge growth in the financial sector which was predominately based in Greater London. That kepts the South East vibrant whilst the rest of the country rotted away.

As bad as Labour were they did alot to reverse that trend, many parts of the country saw huge amounts of urban renewal under their government but also unemployment reached it's lowest levels in a lifetime which brought a reasonable level of prosperity to everywhere. Yes that has all started to fall apart now but much of that is down to the bank bailouts and the free-for-all lending culture of the last decade. Still, they did alot for my area, for my friends and family. Our lives were so much better under that Labour government but our region was also much stronger because of the investment they brought here.

I could go into more detail, I could explain how the business my father built from scratch to employing around 30 people in the mid-80's was crushed by government policies that lead to massive unemployment which inturn caused the collapse of many small businesses that depended on economic stabilty. We lost our family business, we lost our home and I lost my father not many years later as a direct result of the stress caused by trying to keep our family off state benefits.

The truth is that Thatcher abandoned much of this country for the best part of a decade, she let our manufacturing industries rot rather than helping them reform and re-invest.

 

[MYstIC G]

Cho lets see a good argument from you containing all the things that Tory did wrong and how Labour avoided such issues in their power-terms.

Granted my knowledge of the Thatcher era isn't particularly great as I honed in more on the Golden Era for my degree but I still know a reasonable amount.

First person to say "The Mines" loses.

 

[Raven]

Sorry Himse you are a good lad but you really have no idea then, the 80's and early 90's were horrific for most people living outside the south east of England. Labour have made alot of mistakes in the last 7 years but life was still much better under them for the majority of this country than it was under previous Tory governments.

That was 20-30 years ago... What about pre Tory under labour with the near collapse of public services?

Under Labour we have seen a society that doesn't give a fuck about its neighbours grow, the death of the village pub because people can't afford to drink there because of excessive taxation to help prop up a bloated public sector. Police time being wasted on pile upon pile of paperwork and losing any real powers because "we wouldn't want to upset the poor little shitbag" When I was a lad (under tory) they police would give you a smack round the back of your head, a good bollocking then take you back to your parents for another bollocking. These days they can't do anything without filling a load of pointless paperwork that is designed to keep more people in work rather than sorting anything out.

Fuck Labour and everything they stand for.

 

[Raven]

Bugz, all I can tell you is how it impacted upon the life of my family and the people around us but first let me be clear. Not everything Thatcher did was wrong, however many of her policies directly hurt the manufacturing heartlands of this country. Yes reform was badly needed and the unions needed de-clawing somewhat but it was taken to extremes and what resulted has scarred communities for the last 25 years. Honestly, go visit Rotherham, Rochdale, Sheffield, Barnsley, large parts of the Midlands and speak to the locals. All of them will have their own stories about how their communities were ripped apart by Tory economic policies and have never recovered.

People from the South East usually find it hard to understand why most northern people hate the Tories so much, it is hard for them to see that much of the South East was protected from the worst of what happened, mainly because of the huge growth in the financial sector which was predominately based in Greater London. That kepts the South East vibrant whilst the rest of the country rotted away.

As bad as Labour were they did alot to reverse that trend, many parts of the country saw huge amounts of urban renewal under their government but also unemployment reached it's lowest levels in a lifetime which brought a reasonable level of prosperity to everywhere. Yes that has all started to fall apart now but much of that is down to the bank bailouts and the free-for-all lending culture of the last decade. Still, they did alot for my area, for my friends and family. Our lives were so much better under that Labour government but our region was also much stronger because of the investment they brought here.

I could go into more detail, I could explain how the business my father built from scratch to employing around 30 people in the mid-80's was crushed by government policies that lead to massive unemployment which inturn caused the collapse of many small businesses that depended on economic stabilty. We lost our family business, we lost our home and I lost my father not many years later as a direct result of the stress caused by trying to keep our family off state benefits.

The truth is that Thatcher abandoned much of this country for the best part of a decade, she let our manufacturing industries rot rather than helping them reform and re-invest.

we would have had a fuckload more problems if we had tried to compete with China/India in production. Unless we drop capitalism we don't really have a lot of choice.

Dropping capitalism is something for another thread though

 

[Ch3tan]

I love the fact that everyone always goes on about the Thatcher years, but ignores the steady years under Major. Labour took over with the country in a great position and squandered it.

 

[cHodAX]

That was 20-30 years ago... What about pre Tory under labour with the near collapse of public services?

Under Labour we have seen a society that doesn't give a fuck about its neighbours grow, the death of the village pub because people can't afford to drink there because of excessive taxation to help prop up a bloated public sector. Police time being wasted on pile upon pile of paperwork and losing any real powers because "we wouldn't want to upset the poor little shitbag" When I was a lad (under tory) they police would give you a smack round the back of your head, a good bollocking then take you back to your parents for another bollocking. These days they can't do anything without filling a load of pointless paperwork that is designed to keep more people in work rather than sorting anything out.

Fuck Labour and everything they stand for.

Raven I cannot disagree with that, I will say this though, the rot with the police had set in long before Labour got in. I remember spending 5 hours in a police station back in 1992, I gave a statement about a knife attack I had witnessed, the paperwork was immense and the police didn't seem interested in anything other than staying out of the cold January weather. To top it off the CPS dropped the case even though I was a credible witness, all because the guy who was stabbed was too scarred to testify.

As for all the red tape, health and safety, kids running wild and getting away with it. That all started long before 1997, Labour did fuck all to stop it getting worse though I will admit. Weak on crime, weak on the causes of crime.

Let me say again though, at least here in Manchester things were alot better under Labour including crime. The early 90's here were utterly deadly up here, I can vividly remember one bad week in 1991 when a local asian shopkeeper was executed infront of his wife because he refused to open the till and give them the money. A week later my sister had a shotgun shoved in her face during a post office robbery, that same post office had already been robbed at gunpoint 3 times in 6 months before that day. The police never caught anyone and the Post Office ended up closing down that branch, another vital community service lost.

I hate the Tories, I will readily admit it and have good personal reasons for doing so. I am not deluded to think that everything Labour did was good though, they fucked alot of things up but the one thing they got right for the best part of a decade was the economy until the banks fucked us all over when they got greedy and invested all our money in the American sub-prime market.

 

[cHodAX]

I love the fact that everyone always goes on about the Thatcher years, but ignores the steady years under Major. Labour took over with the country in a great position and squandered it.

Yeah the steady years, like the devaluation of sterling under Norman Lamont.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

No no, I give Major zero credit. I give Ken Clarke a ton of credit, that guy was a very progressive chancellor and he had to fight his own cabinet on many occasions to steer the ship back on the right course. Did he start the recovery? Hell yes. Did he start the investment outside the south east? Not a chance. Labour created the regional development agencies and the investment they attracted helped transform cities like Manchester and others across the country.

 

[Bugz]

I will come back to this later proprly but let me say that I believe manufacturing isn't the right way to show how bad Thatcher era was. We were uncompetitive for years, never working at full production and being overtaken by most other mainstream countries in production efficiency and production technology.

It was our failure, as a country, in being slow to adapt to the new production methods that the U.S brought in and other countries jumped on the band wagon for, that made industrialization during the Thatcher era a wise move. We jumped to the next stage of the economy-structural model quickly and got a head start, which was partly why we had some good years under Labour.

 

[Ch3tan]

the one thing they got right for the best part of a decade was the economy until the banks fucked us all over when they got greedy and invested all our money in the American sub-prime market.

No, they took the UK from it's best financial position to it's worse. The banking collapse was not the be all and end all, as a country Labour have ploughed us into massive debt due to spending without caution. This has got to be the most ridiculous view on the economy I have read, you can defend Labours policies, but not their record.

"the end of boom and bust" - LOL

 

[cHodAX]

No, they took the UK from it's best financial position to it's worse. The banking collapse was not the be all and end all, as a country Labour have ploughed us into massive debt due to spending without caution. This has got to be the most ridiculous view on the economy I have read, you can defend Labours policies, but not their record.

"the end of boom and bust" - LOL

It went to it's worst because of the bank bailout, to say otherwise is absurd. Go back and look at the defecits pre-2007. They were not out of control and had been running steady for a good number of years, then 2007 comes and the bank bailout when the defecit almost doubles in the space of 18 months.

UK National Debt — Economics Blog

 

[Wij]

It went to it's worst because of the bank bailout, to say otherwise is absurd. Go back and look at the defecits pre-2007. They were not out of control and had been running steady for a good number of years, then 2007 comes and the bank bailout when the defecit almost doubles in the space of 18 months.

UK National Debt — Economics Blog

From that very link:

After a period of financial restraint, National debt at a % of GDP fell to 29% of GDP by 2002. Then, national Debt as a % of GDP increased from 30% in 2002 to 37 % in 2007. This was despite the long period of economic expansion. It was primarily due to the governments decision to increase spending on health and education. There has also been a marked rise in social security spending.

National debt as a percentage of GDP was INCREASING in the boom years. Busts happen, you have to expect that and prepare. Labour didn't.

 

[cHodAX]

From that very link:

After a period of financial restraint, National debt at a % of GDP fell to 29% of GDP by 2002. Then, national Debt as a % of GDP increased from 30% in 2002 to 37 % in 2007. This was despite the long period of economic expansion. It was primarily due to the governments decision to increase spending on health and education. There has also been a marked rise in social security spending.

National debt as a percentage of GDP was INCREASING in the boom years. Busts happen, you have to expect that and prepare. Labour didn't.

They invested in health and education, both of which caused a rise in GDP. Yes they increased spending hence borrowing but they also increased our earning potential in the process.

The boat wasn't sunk until the bank bailout, it effectively scuppered any chances of us getting a return on the investments made in previous years and the potential liabilities the bailout has left us with could be the torpedo shot that sends us down should another market crash occur.

 

[Wij]

They invested in health and education, both of which caused a rise in GDP. Yes they increased spending hence borrowing but they also increased our earning potential in the process.

The boat wasn't sunk until the bank bailout, it effectively scuppered any chances of us getting a return on the investments made in previous years and the potential liabilities the bailout has left us with could be the torpedo shot that sends us down should another market crash occur.

So you're effectively saying that Labour spent more than we could afford to if we had a bust. And we did get a bust. Therefore it's not Labour's fault because ?

 

[cHodAX]

So you're effectively saying that Labour spent more than we could afford to if we had a bust. And we did get a bust. Therefore it's not Labour's fault because ?

They borrowed to invest so as to increase long term earnings, every government does it. That is why they run a defecit. Every G20 country runs a defecit. We all live in a debt based economy.

Labour wasn't spending more than we could afford, national debt against GDP was still way below most of our competitors and that is the measuring stick for what you can afford. Sadly the bank bailout totally fucked that up, our debt spiralled out of control because of poor bank regulation and excessive risk taking on behalf of the banks.

Labour did not cause the banking collapse, you are well aware of that Wij.

 

[Jiggs]

I think people underestimate how kooky Blair was/is. Proper nut job.

This is what he wrote to Isaiah Berlin in 1997

...the origins of the Left lie in opposition to arbitrary authority, intolerance and hierarchy.

Which is pretty amusing when you think about what his legacy is.