Politics Ed Miliband

[Wij]

What? All those countries had banks they were exposed to the sub-prime fiasco, some more than others and those like Iceland or Ireland almost collapsed because of it. Italy was hard hit, Spain too and combined with the housing bubble burst it really left them in the shit. Greece almost folded, Portugal is on the brink.

Austria, Demark, Sweden, Germany all bailed out banks too and countributed to the European Unions bailout fund.

Canada had to bail out to the extent of $75 billion for it's chartered banks, they just did it by stealth and said it won't cost them anything in the long run, still they had to pump the money in or make guarantees to keep the banks afloat.

Everyone made the mistake to one degree or another, you were right to point out that our housing bubble contributed heavily as well but again that housing bubble was being repeated globally. It was all down to the free for all lending era that the banks and markets encouraged.

As for your last point, it is so trite that it is hardly worth answering. Politicians the world over make mistakes, your precious Conservative party included.

I already mentioned the PIGS economies. As for the others yes, many of their banks failed but many of their economies rode out the crisis better than us.

I remember even in the early 2000s many people warning that levels of consumer debt were too high but Gordon brushed this off and reminded us that he abolished boom and bust.

Regarding mistakes, that's exactly my point, you are admitting Labour made mistakes then.

And regarding my precious Conservative party, I don't think I've ever voted Conservative before this election I certainly voted NuLab in 1997 like every other fool.

 

[cHodAX]

Go way back up the thread, I said mistakes were made AGES ago. I also said and I am 100% correct, the Labour governments economic policies did not cause this recession. Poor banking regulation and outright fraud in the United States did.

 

[ECA]

So you don't think Labour bear any responsibility whatsoever ?

( whether by virtue of negligence or incompetence ).

 

[cHodAX]

So you don't think Labour bear any responsibility whatsoever ?

( whether by virtue of negligence or incompetence ).

For the credit crunch resulting from the sub-prime market collapse? Close to zero. That blame lies with the U.S. Federal Reserve and the poor regulation of the markets by the various agencies overseeing those matters in that jurisdiction.

Blame for not being better prepared? Somewhat yes but many others were caught out too and remember than most market experts were in total shock when Lehmann Brothers went under followed by the Fanny and Freddy bailouts. No one and I mean no one saw that turn of events. It was a total game changer.

What I do blame them is for selling off the gold reserves at a stupid time and getting a tiny fraction of what they were actually worth in return. Infact, you know what? I consider that act to be borderline criminal. I blame them for pissing away billions on useless projects like Millenium Domes, I.D. cards, I.T. systems that come in at 3 times original budget and never work properly. I blame them for the masses of mid-level civil service managers sat on fat pensions for doing fuck all work. I blame them for further hindering the police, for giving kids so many rights that they can stick 2 fingers up to the world and no fucker can do anything about it. I blame them for fucking with the G.P. and dentist contracts so now we end up paying them more than twice what we were.

I blame them for alot.

What I won't do is blame them for what was not their fault, I also won't forget the good things they did like pumping tens of billions extra into Education and Health so that we have a great many more modern hospitals and schools with modern equipment. I won't forget the minimum wage and how it raised many working people right at the bottom out of abject poverty, the job creation schemes that gave many young people a chance and lowered unemployment to levels not seen in a lifetime. I won't forget the winter fuel allowance and the tens of thousands of elderly lives it has saved since it's introduction. I won't forget how they transformed my city with regional development and many other cities too from run down industrial relics into modern cities that could attract new investment and create opportunities for all.

I blame them for alot, I thank them for alot as well. All I can say is that my quality of life has been alot better since 1997 than it was before, if you were to ask my mum who is 56 I am certain she would say the same but be even more unequivocal in her response.

 

[Bugz]

And I'm sure if you ask the next generation of people who are stuck with a mountain of debts, heightened by Mr Brown's lack of understanding of cycle norms, deregulation and so on, they'd say your generation has fucked up the future for them.

Of course the credit crunch would have happened. No-one is debating that. The US market is too influential to not cause a shock wave of credit issues with their sub-prime mortgages hit the fan. But Brown's actions only heightened the blows we took. Your 'great years' that you attribute Mr Brown to only show you suffer the same fatal flaw as he does - your inability to think of the wider picture.

Britain not only will take hits debt-wise for years to come, it'll take credit hits, the young people of tomorrow will be home buying even later, individuals in debt have lost the very life oh-so-great Labour built for them.

Labour rode on the waves of global growth. Brown influenced the growth a bit more by investing a lot in public services & so on. In doing so, he failed to obey a key Keynesian law. At this time, economists started noticing a huge housing bubble. Labour didn't care. Now we have Tories cutting the public services that Brown inflated.

Don't get me wrong. Labour handled the credit crunch perfectly. But their actions leading up to it were not as great as you think.

 

[cHodAX]

Don't get me wrong. Labour handled the credit crunch perfectly. But their actions leading up to it were not as great as you think.

Where did I say their actions in the lead up were great? Did you not see my last post when I pointed out some of the big mistakes they did make, there were other failures yes just as there were other successes. The wheels didn't to fall off though until Brown moved the 'economic cycle' to justify his public spending overspend in 2005. Until that point things were pretty damn healthy but you don't create golden rules and then break them but sadly that is what he did. That change was key to the current problem because we ended up overstretched at the worst possible time but as we said it didn't cause the crisis, it just exacerbated it.

As I said, mistakes. Let us not gloss over the good things either though.

Oh and as for future generations, if these cuts go as deep as I fear then I expect the long term fallout to be far worse for those kids. If the forthcoming spending cuts stall this weak recovery then we are all fucked for at least a decade and perhaps much longer. Don't get me wrong, I hate the Tories but I really hope that doesn't happen, far too much depends on it working for party politics to get the way. I fear they are wrong but I do hope they are right, it would be reckless to do otherwise.

 

[Bugz]

Aye tbh I came across as a bit of an overzealous twat so I apologise there. It's just frustrating reading about the good times the older generation shared, yet I'm stuck here uming and ering whether the economy will have recovered by the time I finish uni or whether I'm going to be fudging x years of my life until things finally stabilise properly.

 

[Raven]

I can't see how learning to live within your means is a bad thing though. Also an end to the welfare state will force more people to find work, even if it is a job that is usually filled by one of those lazy foreigners we keep hearing about.

Under Labour we have seen a massive increase in consumer credit. While not directly their fault, they could have done more to regulate it and a hell of a lot more to get people off their sofa and into employment. Don't say there aren't any jobs out there because there are, people are just not willing to do them. Labour are only good when things are going right, when things go tits up (which they have done) we need people with the balls to make the cuts that are necessary to ensure recovery, not flop about like landed fish like they did under Blair in his later years and even more so under Brown.

A massive public sector just doesn't work, it's just a money pit, why throw money down the drain on something that doesn't actually produce anything of any real value? We need to concentrate on getting private companies working again and we need to attract more international corporations here. Instead of pissing tax money up the wall keeping some diversity adviser in work the government should be using that money to help small businesses. Obviously its a bit late for that now due to Labours frankly retarded ability to balance the books so first we need to tackle the deficit.

 

[cHodAX]

Aye tbh I came across as a bit of an overzealous twat so I apologise there. It's just frustrating reading about the good times older people shared, yet I'm stuck here uming and ering whether the economy will have recovered by the time I finish uni or whether I'm going to be fudging x years of my life until things finally stabilise properly.

Honestly, if you can get out I would. Forget the economy, for social and cultural reasons alone I would leave if I could. Too many people in this country have no pride or respect, I am only 36 and the changes I have seen in that time really do make me fear for the future. Kids run wild, no one acts. The majority of young adults are so aggressive and act on pure impulse, it really is becoming a dog eat dog society in many ways. You might think that is more 'golden era' thinking from me but my perception of how life has been is part of who I am. Upto the age of 13 or so this country was a nice enough place to live, something changed in the late 1980's though and communities just seemed to implode. Crime skyrocketed and what was once rare violent crime became an everyday occurance.

The one thing I don't think this government have a chance of fixing is the social decline and degradation of moral standards. It is eating away at this country like a cancer.

 

[cHodAX]

Oh and I know that you will all find the resident pervert talking about moral standards to be highly amusing but remember, my online persona certainly isn't who I am in real life or I would probably be locked up and unemployable.

 

[Raven]

Honestly, if you can get out I would. Forget the economy, for social and cultural reasons alone I would leave if I could. Too many people in this country have no pride or respect, I am only 36 and the changes I have seen in that time really do make me fear for the future. Kids run wild, no one acts. The majority of young adults are so aggressive and act on pure impulse, it really is becoming a dog eat dog society in many ways. You might think that is more 'golden era' thinking from me but my perception of how life has been is part of who I am. Upto the age of 13 or so this country was a nice enough place to live, something changed in the late 1980's though and communities just seemed to implode. Crime skyrocketed and what was once rare violent crime became an everyday occurance.

The one thing I don't think this government have a chance of fixing is the social decline and degradation of moral standards. It is eating away at this country like a cancer.

I agree completely and its ones of the reasons I moved back to my home village after living in Surrey for 5 years. There is a really good community spirit here, everyone knows everyone and its nice to be able to walk down the street and talk to people you know instead of the blank looks you would get in the rancid shit hole which is the south of England.
I think the problem is the desperation to build massive new housing estates, these are fine at the start when its young couples moving in but when they start having kids these kids have fuck all to do, nowhere to go, parents couldn't give a fuck about what they get up to so they run riot.

A prime example is the kids that hang around outside the shops. When I was young we would ask people to buy our ciggies for us (save the anti smoking wailing ) if someone said no then that was an end to it, these days when you say no you just get a hail of abuse, the kids know there is nothing you can do about it. They even gave my wife abuse because she refused. The nasty little scrotes need to be sent on army training for a month instead of being given pointless asbos and sessions with pointless do gooders.

 

[cHodAX]

For me personally it is the biggest issue at the moment, I really worry what these kids will grow into. God knows their parents are often bad enough.

 

[MYstIC G]

Actually the real problems lay with the U.S. banking and finance system that allowed sub-prime debts to be bundled together and re-classified to a higher rating. Essentially state sponsored fraud, a loophole that allowed the American banks to sell worthless debt overseas as good debt. They fucked us all alot more than Labour could have even with another 13 years of power.

I am sure you will try and tell me that Labour are culpable for that as well though, even though the last British government (TORY!) to be end the sticky end of short selling did fuck all about it either. Infact has your new Tory government proposed new measure to curb this damaging practice? Massive bank reform? Nope.

You say that but Labour allowed our banks to buy the shit by not regulating them, so your argument is complete pap.

Additionally you're so quick to blame the "good ole" US of A, but what has anything in the states got to do with banks giving people with fuck all income 4 or 5 £5,000.00 limit credit cards simultaneously. It was perfectly possible to go out and get plastic that would let you take your entire years salary out on them. It was complete bullshit and that's nothing to do with across the pond.

 

[MYstIC G]

First person to say "The Mines" loses.

Of course let's not let this get in the way of OOOH THE MINERS SEETHE SEETHE.

Ha ha ha, you lose! Banzai!

 

[MYstIC G]

I blame them for pissing away billions on useless projects like Millenium Domes, I.D. cards, I.T. systems that come in at 3 times original budget and never work properly.

I also won't forget the good things they did like pumping tens of billions extra into Education and Health so that we have a great many more modern hospitals and schools with modern equipment.

Excuse the triple however, this is the entire problem. Pumping money into things doesn't solve problems. People will still become ill and/or be stupid and/or commit fraud, etc, etc. no matter how much you spend, that's just life. Labour's biggest failure is that it never got value for money.

 

[ECA]

Ha ha ha, you lose! Banzai!

I did not use the losing word

 

[Wij]

The Daily Mash - Miliband grasping at straws

No best man. Wonder why ?

 

[Lamp]

He's such a drip. Ed Balls or Allan Johnson would have been a far better leader. This from a non-Labour voter. Since Blair, Labour is no longer the party of the working class. They've become this wishy-washy centrist party that doesn't know what it stands for anymore & neither do the electorate.

 

[cHodAX]

They elected him for that very reason Lamp, they don't want someone electable leading going into the next election as they don't really want to win the next one and have to deal with the economic mess.

 

[Raven]

Would that be the mess that they created? Get the Tories in to fix it, wait 8 years then fuck it all up again.

 

[Embattle]

Would that be the mess that they created? Get the Tories in to fix it, wait 8 years then fuck it all up again.

Anything getting fixed isn't done by a single party.

 

[cHodAX]

Would that be the mess that they created? Get the Tories in to fix it, wait 8 years then fuck it all up again.

Oh I forgot, the global economic crisis never happened, sub-prime collapse was just a bad dream and total lack of back relgulation is nothing but a lie. Labour did it all, THEY DID IT ALL!!

 

[Lamp]

So Brown didn't sell half of our gold reserves (400 tons) and lost £2bn...?

 

[cHodAX]

So Brown didn't sell half of our gold reserves (400 tons) and lost £2bn...?

Yes and he caused the worldwide credit crisis as well which cost us £700 billion right? Oh wait...

 

[Raven]

He pissed our back up plan up the wall and the party as a whole made sure we were spending more than we needed on public services in an attempt to buy votes.

 

[Vae]

He pissed our back up plan up the wall and the party as a whole made sure we were spending more than we needed on public services in an attempt to buy votes.

Look at the carrier project as a prime example of this. Lock the contract in before they leave power to secure jobs in labour heartlands and make it too expensive to get out of! Great for labour, not so great for the country.

 

[MYstIC G]

No best man. Wonder why ?

He's marrying it?

 

[cHodAX]

He pissed our back up plan up the wall and the party as a whole made sure we were spending more than we needed on public services in an attempt to buy votes.

Yeah because a couple of billion would have made all the difference when we ended up £700 billion down the shitter thanks to banks massively over-extending themselves in the rampant quest for bonuses.

 

[ECA]

Hmm I wonder who left the FSA toothless and relaxed banking regulations allowing UK banks to do that.

At least we know 2 people in the UK don't think gordon was at fault in any way shape or form. Gordon and Chodax.

Wait a minute, I've never seen Chodax and Gordon Brown in the same room together..............

 

[cHodAX]

Hmm I wonder who left the FSA toothless and relaxed banking regulations allowing UK banks to do that.

At least we know 2 people in the UK don't think gordon was at fault in any way shape or form. Gordon and Chodax.

Wait a minute, I've never seen Chodax and Gordon Brown in the same room together..............

Deregulation happened the world over but the bit you ALL overlook is that our banks were mostly exposed via thier U.S. operations where FSA regulation would not apply anyway. The people who really need to be taking more blame are the world banking regulators who decide how much capital those banks need to keep hold of because a big reason banks started falling was they over-extended themselves, so much so that when the sub-prime market collapsed they were literally left with enough operating capital to last a matter of weeks.

Still, I am sure you will all keep pinning the entire global crisis on Labour and ignoring everything that happened elsewhere. Heads in sand. Yes the former government made big mistakes and we were headed for recession or very low growth anyway but what happened in the U.S. has sunk almost every nation on Earth into unheard of defecits. How did Gordon manage that?