Do you think its appropriate that a mosque be built on Ground Zero?

[Ch3tan]

Two blocks is fucking massive in manhatten.

 

[Edmond]

Two blocks is fucking massive in manhatten.

Depends if you are walking a block between avenues or streets, if its 2 streets away then its not that far. but it wouldn't bother me either way

 

[pez]

What the fuck is with all this, 'its not a mosque its an islamic centre with a prayer room' stuff? Its a building dedicated to Islam, you're really getting in to symantics imo. Sure they call it the Ground Zero Mosque because its more head line grabbing than Ground Zero Islamic Centre but that dosen't stop it being what it is.

Secondly, it was close enough to ground zero to get hit by fucking plane wreckage.

Thirdly, the guys behind it specifically wanted to build it near Ground Zero. They probably would have built it nearer if somewhere was available/affordable.


Saying its not 'The Ground Zero Mosque' is pointless. Accept that it is a mosque for all the important intents and purposes, accept that it is near enough to Ground Zero for its positioning to be meaningful to both sides and then justify it. Stop deflecting the important debate.

 

[Ch3tan]

We have a prayer room at work, guess that's a mosque too.

 

[fettoken]

We have a prayer room at work, guess that's a mosque too.

Defile it.

 

[Killswitch]

The Qu'ran is a book, a mosque is a building and a cartoon of Muhammed is...ready for this...JUST A FUCKING CARTOON!!

People need to sort out their priorities, seriously. Many people of the Muslim faith died or lost friends/family in the 9/11 attacks. The faith and the act are two different things.

The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour...does that mean Sony can't have a store in Manhattan?

In the case of a Mosque, I think the valuable real estate could be put to better use, but as a cultural centre which could, in theory, promote better multi-faith relations and start to close some of the gaps that Fox News are trying to force even wider, it might do some good.

 

[nath]

What the fuck is with all this, 'its not a mosque its an islamic centre with a prayer room' stuff? Its a building dedicated to Islam, you're really getting in to symantics imo. Sure they call it the Ground Zero Mosque because its more head line grabbing than Ground Zero Islamic Centre but that dosen't stop it being what it is.

Secondly, it was close enough to ground zero to get hit by fucking plane wreckage.

Thirdly, the guys behind it specifically wanted to build it near Ground Zero. They probably would have built it nearer if somewhere was available/affordable.


Saying its not 'The Ground Zero Mosque' is pointless. Accept that it is a mosque for all the important intents and purposes, accept that it is near enough to Ground Zero for its positioning to be meaningful to both sides and then justify it. Stop deflecting the important debate.

Fox news - 1, rational thought - 0.

 

[Ch3tan]

Also pez, the attack was by al-queda, not the entire Islamic faith. Aterrorist group that uses religion for it's own ends.

 

[nath]

Incidentally:

Park51 - Facilities

Doesn't sound like any Mosque I know of. The reason it's important to be specific with what it is is because people put all their prejudices on to the word "mosque" and it gives them an out to stop considering what the proposed building ACTUALLY is. I *very* much doubt that if it had never been rebranded as "the ground zero mosque" very few people would give a shit about it.

 

[pez]

Fox news - 1, rational thought - 0.

I get my news from The Guardian and The BBC website almost exclusively. Last time I checked they didn't toe the Fox News Line.

Also pez, the attack was by al-queda, not the entire Islamic faith. Aterrorist group that uses religion for it's own ends.

Holy shit, I thought a billion people, man, woman and child organised the attack.

The attack was in the name of Islam whether you care to accept it or not. How are you surprised when a proportion of the attacked are upset when a building is built in the name of islam on the doorstep of the attack.

I believe firmly that the building should go ahead. Its what makes the US better than Al-Queada and it will be a sad day when something like that is stopped.

Saying 'Its not a Ground Zero Mosque it is an islamic prayer centre 200 metres from Ground Zero - theres no reason to be upset!' Is just foolish. I mean... really?!?!?! You think the debate should go away on a technicallity?

 

[nath]

Well it seems that the Guardian, the beeb and every other news outlet IS toeing the Fox line as they're calling it a Ground Zero Mosque, two things which are DEMONSTRABLY FALSE.

It's not a technicality, it's not an "islamic prayer centre" it happens to have an islamic prayer centre in the building but if you look at that link you'll see there's far more to it. It's also NOT "on the doorstep of the attack" and saying things like that muddy the waters and make it harder to have a rational discussion about this. If everyone stuck to the facts, it would be so much easier but this whole thing has been blown all out of proportion most likely, as I said before, due to the voting down of that healthcare for heroes bill.

People are only upset about this because of misinformation and the overwhelming out of proportion news coverage that it's received.

 

[pez]

Can we agree to call it the Islamic Community Centre Which Includes and Area that Was Previously Called a Mosque but is Now Being Called a Prayer Room and Which is Very Close To But Not On The Site Of Ground Zero But Was Close Enough to Be Hit By Wreckage From the Plane That Crashed In To The Towers?

Yes Fox and the right have blown it up but that dosen't stop it being insensitive and in my view foolish.

The genie is out of the bottle, it can't be put back in and trying to pretend it dosen't exist is futile.


One of the best pages currently on wikipedia is about this subject. Because its so sensitive almost every statement has about 5 sources backing it up. Have a read and see waht you think.

 

[megadave]

btw if a massive plane crashes into one of the world's tallest buildings at high speed, it causes wreckage to go quite a hefty distance, many blocks infact, not just 2

 

[Ch3tan]

Can we agree to call it the Islamic Community Centre Which Includes and Area that Was Previously Called a Mosque but is Now Being Called a Prayer Room and Which is Very Close To But Not On The Site Of Ground Zero But Was Close Enough to Be Hit By Wreckage From the Plane That Crashed In To The Towers?

Yes Fox and the right have blown it up but that dosen't stop it being insensitive and in my view foolish.

The genie is out of the bottle, it can't be put back in and trying to pretend it dosen't exist is futile.


One of the best pages currently on wikipedia is about this subject. Because its so sensitive almost every statement has about 5 sources backing it up. Have a read and see waht you think.

but a prayer room and a mosque are too very different things, it's not just a simple matter of symantics.

 

[ECA]

The attack was in the name of Islam whether you care to accept it or not. How are you surprised when a proportion of the attacked are upset when a building is built in the name of islam on the doorstep of the attack.

That's like saying Raoul Moat was a Christian Martyr and was a radical christian terrorist who shot people in the name of christ.

He was just a douchebag who happened to be a christian.

 

[Job]

Let's get things in balance here, after the 9/11 attacks, Muslims want to build a mosque-ey type thing near the big hole.
We on the other hand invaded and decimated two countries in the name of the Christian God (Well the Yanks did anyway).
Millions of civilians and 'not very keen in the first place' conscripts, blown to fucking bits, shot, burnt, buried alive.
Kids, mothers, daughters, old grannies, anyone in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Iraqi's regularly lose more people in one day that we have lost in the whole campaign.
We get a Mosque, they have our tanks rumbling up and down the streets.
Seems like a fair deal to me

 

[nath]

Can we agree to call it the Islamic Community Centre Which Includes and Area that Was Previously Called a Mosque but is Now Being Called a Prayer Room and Which is Very Close To But Not On The Site Of Ground Zero But Was Close Enough to Be Hit By Wreckage From the Plane That Crashed In To The Towers?

Yes Fox and the right have blown it up but that dosen't stop it being insensitive and in my view foolish.

We can agree to call it an Islamic Community Centre that has a prayer room. Because that's what it is. It's not very close to the site of ground zero, no it's within its vicinity. It's neither insensitive nor foolish - in fact it has a Sept 11th memorial there so actually I'd actually call it reasonably sensitive. Peoples feelings are being manipulated, it only takes a small amount of thought to realise that and see that the building is absolutely fine.

 

[pez]

It was also called a mosque before they renamed it.


Look at the end of the day, I'm arguing about the exact thing I think people should not be arguing about.

Imagine they were calling it a mosque and imagine it was 20 metres closer or however close it has to be for you to consider it Ground Zero. Would you still think its a lot of fuss over nothing?

I completely understand why some Americans are upset and think this Rauf guy is thoughtless and naive if he genuinely thought it would improve Muslim American - Non-Muslim American relations. Its a view that has been echoed by many senior muslims.

 

[nath]

I understand why some Americans are upset about it but I genuinely think that if it weren't for all the negative propaganda that they wouldn't be anywhere near as angry.

Moving past that I think "tough shit", if you're suggesting that Islam is responsible for 9/11 as opposed to extremists then you deserve to be outraged and annoyed. Backing down from putting the community centre there would be a form of admission that Islam is responsible for the attacks and that's just bullshit. I hate to be the one defending religion as I despise all forms of it, but these extremists were to Islam as the KKK are to Christianity, people don't seem to have trouble keeping those two separate.

 

[ECA]

It was fine, until fox news started bleating about the ground zero ( it isn't there ) mosque ( it isn't ) and riling up the stupid christian right republican base.

For those even remotely defending the rights of the bigoted idiots -
go watch 30 minutes of glen beck or sean hannity and try not to commit suicide before the 30 minutes is up because your faith in humanity will be shaken and you will wish to end your life.

 

[nath]

Don't forget Bill O'Reilly - the fucking anti-christ himself.

 

[Ch3tan]

For him to be an anti anything, there would have to be a a non anti version

 

[pez]

I understand why some Americans are upset about it but I genuinely think that if it weren't for all the negative propaganda that they wouldn't be anywhere near as angry.

Moving past that I think "tough shit", if you're suggesting that Islam is responsible for 9/11 as opposed to extremists then you deserve to be outraged and annoyed. Backing down from putting the community centre there would be a form of admission that Islam is responsible for the attacks and that's just bullshit. I hate to be the one defending religion as I despise all forms of it, but these extremists were to Islam as the KKK are to Christianity, people don't seem to have trouble keeping those two separate.

I agree completely. Its a very strong arguement but as someone who has looked in to the history of park 51/The Corboda Initiative and looking at the picture I posted I think you lose a lot of credibility by flat out saying its not Ground Zero its not a Mosque.

In my view it makes you sound as bad as Fox by just repeating stock phrases without looking in to it.

 

[Amanita]

I would like to think that it could be seen as a symbol of forgiveness and hope for a more amicable future.

But of course there's the people

 

[Puppet]

I'm just thinking: What is the point and goal the people want to achieve by building a mosque-alike building so close to Ground Zero ?

If the goal is to obtain mutual understanding and respect it is pretty obvious that the outrage from a very significant part of the NY-population shows that that aint working. A good sign of showing respect and gaining mutual understanding is by saying now 'Ok, we see a lot of people have a problem with it, so we move it, since there is no rational(*) reason to put it here in the first place'.

Make that gesture and you gain sympathy. Keep yelling about freedom of religion and such and the only thing you achieve is more hatred from a substantial part of the people living in the direct vicinity. But perhaps the latter is their true hidden agenda, I can't tell. All I know is that a lot of bad people are hiding behind their religion, be it Christians or Islams.


(*) I know it is ironic bringing ratio into a discussion solely based on religion but I found it necessary to do so anyhow.

 

[nath]

I agree completely. Its a very strong arguement but as someone who has looked in to the history of park 51/The Corboda Initiative and looking at the picture I posted I think you lose a lot of credibility by flat out saying its not Ground Zero its not a Mosque.

In my view it makes you sound as bad as Fox by just repeating stock phrases without looking in to it.

The reason I'm focussing so much on mere labels is that they carry so much significance. If, from the very beginning, there were no hyperbole attached to this I very much doubt we'd even be having this discussion now. Yes, it looks close to ground zero on that aerial shot but I still maintain it's a reasonable enough distance away to make "ground zero mosque" a bullshit term.

If you have information suggesting that the building was initially conceived as a mosque I would be (genuinely) interested to read about it, though even if I were to concede it were a mosque and in fact even if it were closer, I don't think my opinion would change significantly but I'm interested to know where you've read that it was going to be a mosque.

 

[kamorrista]

one thing is for sure, is harder to build a catholic church in arabic countries, apart from that we should leave them construct it, need to be tolerant, even when it seems we are being idiots (many people can think it's stupid to do it when Al-Qaeda killed thousands people in name of their religion).

I don't think is stupid, but yes, might be not very appropiate and risky.

 

[Thorwyn]

I don´t see the point. Islam didn´t bomb the towers, Al-Qaeda did. The US are not fighting aginst islam, they are fighting against terrorists (or at least that´s what they say). There ARE muslims living in the USA and some of them even died during the 911 attacks.

 

[Raven]

Well, most of the blame for the media shit storm surrounding this is the media and people who believe what they are told without questioning it, right wing Christian Americans.

Fox news love this shit.

 

[kamorrista]

I don´t see the point. Islam didn´t bomb the towers, Al-Qaeda did.

You are right, it is just that Al-Qaeda point they did in name of their religion (and everything they do they say the same), so i repeat what i previously said.