disgrace

[Bunnytwo]

As a general rule its good to be tolerant of the religions and cultures of others. The problem with this is where the religion or culture of another is incompatible with yours.

For example, if someone were to come to this country seeking assylum from a country where child marriage was a part of the culture should that be allowed here? How about female circumcision which is practiced at a young age in many parts of the world, but is I believe illegal here. The stoning of wives for adultery, the beating of wives for disobedience are all accepted in many parts of the world but are illegal here.

Who is to decide which practices we will tolerate and which we will not, because either all have to be acceptable under the umbrella of not imposing our values on other cultures/religions or at some point we have to say "No" at which point we are making a value judgement that our cultural and legal values override theirs.

 

[Ezteq]

You're a racist c*nt, and a fucking moron.

OK so far people have put foward eloquant and intelligent arguements, you however are a bloody good poster boy for birth control, why did you say that when you do not know him? why did you have to use such stupid and retarded language you could simply have said "i disagree" then put foward an intelligent arguement, but no instead you resort to the lowest commen denominator and act like a complete idiot,

other people are allowed to have opionions as long as they match yours eh? is that it, you dont like the way someone else thinks so you brand them a racist? you probably call people fascists all the time too dont you? and fyi it is NOT racist to express an opionion in the way b2 did he was merely stating facts, you however were just letting out steam, i suggest you remove your head from your arse (providing its not wedged too far up there) and start paying attention to how cililized human beings discuss things.

i was remarking the other day how well this thread is going with people expressing their points of view in very good ways, even those i happen to disagree with i still read their posts and it always amazes me how passionate they are and im impressed with their conviction and with no one acting like a nob and talking bollocks, sadly Nath has just proved me wrong
Nath i suggest you grow up.

 

[Mojo]

Who is to decide which practices we will tolerate and which we will not, because either all have to be acceptable under the umbrella of not imposing our values on other cultures/religions or at some point we have to say "No" at which point we are making a value judgement that our cultural and legal values override theirs.

And at which point the some people scream racist, which is sad and which is happening in this thread.

 

[Bunnytwo]

Tainting an entire religion with the wrongs of one or even several countries that claim to follow it is - in my opinion - racist, and pretty stupid.

I was also tainting a religion with the acts and quotations of its founder. However, the main point, which I suppose I should of pointed out clearly is that if you are going to give school children trips to a mosque, where lets be honest even if they have a total firebrand cleric who gives sermons about death to the west and encouraging his followers to strap on a bomb and rush to paradise, they are going to get the cute cuddly version of the religion, they should also be made aware of other elements.

Islam is by no means singled out, you just have to look at how the press will glory in any story about gay or kiddy fiddling Catholic priests. If a guy is encouraged by the local mullah to strap a bomb to himself and blow up a bunch of children on a school bus its not the media who are giving a bad impression of Islam by reporting on it, he is the one doing that.

BTW how can I possibly be being racist, since when was Islam a race?

 

[Escape]

Only problem there m8 is that they happened so aren't lies. And well you are being even more selective than me. Wow Hitler allowed some Jews in his army and regime for practical purposes, why not look at how they flourished, rather than the millions who were killed and you can argue that he was a tolerant man.

Yes Jerusalem was under Muslim control and yes Jews and Christians were tolerated, but maybe you should also mention that this was under the terms of a treaty after the 3rd Crusade, it wasn't a decision that they made out of the goodness of their hearts it was to get the crusader army to go home. Bagdad was a centre of excellence, and that was largely because of the Jews there, they were tolerated because they had great technical knowledge, in the same way as above Hitler had Jewish generals and experts in his regime (and they still had periodic pogroms going on).

As for a general toleration of the Jews (and unbelievers) maybe you would be better looking at the activities of Mohammed himself. For example, the 800 Jews of Medina he slaughtered in 627AD, the Jews at Bani Qurayzah where the men were all killed while the women and children were taken as slaves and concubines (Including a lovely 6 year old that he took as his wife (though he did wait till she was 9 before boffing her at the ripe old age of 53)) etc. In light of the examples from the prophet's life the fundamentalists aren't misquoting when they quote the koran as an excuse for slaughter.

Maybe you should look at the conflicts large and small going on around the world at the moment, you will probably find that peace loving and tolerant Islam is involved in more than any other religion, political belief etc.

BTW guess who commits most anti-semitic attacks in this country? It isn't the National Front.

Not saying all Muslims are bad, I have and have had Muslim friends and they can't stand these elements of Islam (and recognise that fundamentalists are not a small minority around the world, but a very strong and well backed (often government backed) force). The terrorists are Muslim, they are encouraged by a significant number of Muslim clerics and they receive financial backing from Muslims. How would you have the media call them, apart from Islamic Fundamentalists or Islamic Extremists? They are actually distinguishing between them and the majority.

BTW yes the house of Saud is corrupt, which is probably why it has backed Islamic terrorism. An example of which is the pension that it pays to the family of suicide bombers in Israel. Can't remember any attacks on non-westerners in Saudi, if any have been killed its been in the cross-fire.

If you want to get a true understanding of Islam try living in a country that is run under full Islamic law, not a westernised largely secular country. (I have, it was bloody awful, complete with religious police, thankfully had the option of coming back after 6 months, my father had the joy of living in one for 13 years). They are not tolerant of others, you live their way or else you'll wish you had.

Most treaties last a generation, not centuries! I doubt the rulers of Jerusalem didn't attack the Jews/christians, because they feared having to defeat the Crusade a fourth time.

You're getting confused when you say the advances from the east, were infact from Jews disguised as Muslims!

Conflicts happen in all corners of the world. Just because you don't see it on the news, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Violence isn't restricted to Muslim countries. And how did places like Iraq end up in their present situation? It was interference from the US/UK and eventually they turned a modern country into a third-world proverty stricken land without medicine, running water, education.... Alot of Iraqis have been living like this for two decades, and thousands of them have died. So of course there's alot of anger in Muslim communities and they don't respect western authority. And then people are surprised by violent retaliation... what else are you expecting, a free curry+rice?

You are far too deluded for me to continue this, so have fun in your fantasy world where the western governments do not tell any lies and everything in the east is evil.



-----------------------

You see alot of people who say Religion is the cause of war, slaughter, abuse... etc etc

When you leave school and live in the real world for a few years, you'll see it's basic human greed which causes conflicts, not laws or religions, those become the tools for advancement.

Even if there were no religions or differences, there would still be wars.

 

[Matriarch|Sneakers]

One of the problems with immigration is that the first generation of immigrants tends to be older and more set in their ways, wanting to keep traditions and community alive. Also the older you are the harder it is to learn new languages. Most (if not all) second generation immigrants ar bi-cultural and bi-lingual.

In terms of immigration i think special dispensation should be given to commonwealth countries though as we did steal their wealth, exploited their resources, both natural and human and impose western consumerist values upon them so we still owe them a debt for that.

Very true. /clap

 

[Matriarch|Sneakers]

I love many of you, because you make me feel a lot more clever. Cheers.










Also, you being racist in such a teenage angst fashion, it makes me giggle. Lots.
Making comments about how they should learn the language, while spelling like you've just had a stroke... Thats gr8 m8s!

xDD

 

[nath]

BTW how can I possibly be being racist, since when was Islam a race?

Oh good, semantics.

Another interesting point, you seem to believe that because you have spent time in other countries and have non-white friends that it'd be physically impossible for you to be a racist? I hate to tell you this bud, but it's still possible.

You also seem to have the view that Christianity gets a raw deal, whereas Islam is known to be perfect. It's all the media's fault for us getting the wrong idea about it.

The fact is - there are nasty people in all religions, sure you've got kiddy-fiddling catholics and islamic hate-mongers. The relevant fact is that islam is an important part of a lot of decent peoples lives. Probably a lot of your kids classmates lives - for that reason it's a good idea that they understand a bit more about it. If they want to know the nasty things, just flick on the tube and watch the news any day of the week. You have to look a little harder to know about the good things.

Also, I believe it's fairly easy to know what "practices" we allow in to our country. You talked about female circumcision, child marriage etc. Well how about this, we follow the current laws that we have here, if they don't break them or any human rights laws then it's ok?

People seem to have made all these decisions based on a couple of people that they have seen in their area, and what's on the news. Here's an idea - I went to quite a rough school - most of the black people I knew/was in contact with were pretty nasty, very aggressive and used to mug people quite a bit. I also see crime committed by black people on the news all the time. I know! I'll jump to the conclusion that the majority of black people are violent criminals.

Wait, is that racist?

 

[[SS]Gamblor]

Bigot fits it better ;P

 

[Driwen]

Yes i agree with the beleiving thingy. But on the other side More bad things has come out of religion then good things.. All the wars, woman being less worth in some religions, Psychos that heard Jesus tell em to kill 5 people and then play tetris.. IMO If all religions were taken away we would loose more of the bad things then the good.

I have to agree with Yaruar and Tsabo here. Now IF religion was the cause for wars and for unequal rights between women and men than in favour of it you can plead the fact that it did create some morals atleast. Atleast people had some kind of justice system instead of none, which would mean that there would have been chaos most likely. Now if religion isnt the cause of morals than it cant be the cause of wars aswell.
Now there are psychos who dont believe and there have been wars started without religion as cause. So I dont believe wiping out religion will do anyone any good and it will probably mean that some (and I guess many) will loose a reason to live.

 

[Ezteq]

oooh ffs just because someone has an opionion different from yours does not make them a racist or wrong.
ooooh you grew up in a tough area, big whoop doesnt mean your more qualified to tell people how they should act and think tbh.
and someone points out how biast the media is... what about that crisis in sudan thats been going on for bloody ages and we only started hearing about it a few weeks ago, why didnt they report sooner? i'll leave you to work that one out.

and running about winging and calling everyone racist is highly irrisponsible and unfounded, and tbh how the hell can b2 be racist, he's going out with me.

engage brain before opening ones mouth

 

[Mojo]

Bigot fits it better ;P

Maybe even culturist (if it were a word, well it might be but dunno) something many of us are guilty of, dunno about racist tho doesnt seem to fit.

 

[nath]

Wow, someone (Ezteq) completely missed the point of my post.

In response to

and running about winging and calling everyone racist is highly irrisponsible and unfounded, and tbh how the hell can b2 be racist, he's going out with me.

have you ever heard this before "I can't be racist, I have lots of black friends!". Sorry, it's not quite as simple as that. Plus, racist doesn't have to mean someone who hates everyone who's not white...

 

[Bunnytwo]

Most treaties last a generation, not centuries! I doubt the rulers of Jerusalem didn't attack the Jews/christians, because they feared having to defeat the Crusade a fourth time.

You're getting confused when you say the advances from the east, were infact from Jews disguised as Muslims!

Conflicts happen in all corners of the world. Just because you don't see it on the news, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Violence isn't restricted to Muslim countries. And how did places like Iraq end up in their present situation? It was interference from the US/UK and eventually they turned a modern country into a third-world proverty stricken land without medicine, running water, education.... Alot of Iraqis have been living like this for two decades, and thousands of them have died. So of course there's alot of anger in Muslim communities and they don't respect western authority. And then people are surprised by violent retaliation... what else are you expecting, a free curry+rice?

You are far too deluded for me to continue this, so have fun in your fantasy world where the western governments do not tell any lies and everything in the east is evil.

LMAO didn't say western governments don't lie.

Blaming the state of Iraq on UK/US doesn't even come close to explaining evens. Iraq's regime under Hussain received backing from a large number of countries including France, Germany, Russia. Also backing the war against Ian were Suadi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and Jordan. (who all considered Iran to be a major threat to their interests). The main reason why he went on to invade Kuwait (which led to the 1st Gulf War and the sanctions against Iraq for the regimes refusal to allow weapons inspectors to carry out their work) was their refusal to write off the huge loans they had made to him. Hardly just down to the US and UK. So for them to blame the West for their situation is a bit like the people who take out huge loans and max out 15 credit cards and then blame the banks for their debts.

Jew disguised as Muslims, where did you get that from? The Jews were reknown for having a great deal of scientific knowledge. They were also rather useful as bankers. Largely the same reasons as why they were tolerated in the West at the time and similarly to the West they also tended to get hammered when the state they were in felt uncomfortable about the debts they had run up.

The West is basically a cheap scap goat for any problem around the world. Take Rwanda the West was damned for not going in, if we had gone in we would have been accused of being warmongers, imperialists etc.

As for accepting suicide bombing of school buses on the grounds of "ah well you've got to accept retaliation for some perceived injustice", yeh right, the day I do that is the day that I say a serial killer should be allowed to go free because he had a bad childhood. If that is acceptable then it would be OK for Catholics to kill Muslims in retaliation for the genocide committed by Indonesia against the people of East Timor?

 

[Driwen]

Oh good, semantics.

you meant discrimination though .

and just because bunnytwo got coloured friends, doesnt have to mean he doesnt think he is better than them or that in general coloured people are more prone to thieving or as in this case Islamic countries will have unequal rights. Now the reason imo Islamic countries have unequal rights towards females, isnt so much the cause of the Islam, but more the fact that 50 years ago they were still living in the same situation that they were 500 years ago (atleast I think they did and mostly speaking about their society). Give them some time to come to the same realisations we have gotten to, which was actually just around 90 years ago for us btw and it is only now that it is reasonably equal.
They were in a different world until recently, so their progress in society doesnt have to be as fast or as slow as ours (in this case it was slower in the end). So you cant just say that because they still have unequal laws for foreigners and women that Islamic countries are doomed. No they are not and with time, they will most likely have similar views on women rights as we do.

Note: I am not saying that bunnytwo is a racist or discriminates, but the defence of oow but I have people from a different group/race as friends so I cant discriminate/be a racist is a rather weak defence.

 

[Bunnytwo]

Also, I believe it's fairly easy to know what "practices" we allow in to our country. You talked about female circumcision, child marriage etc. Well how about this, we follow the current laws that we have here, if they don't break them or any human rights laws then it's ok?

Then you are imposing the cutural values of your country (which are the basis of law) on those from another, you are saying that their values are unacceptable. Quite understandably they are likely to take this as a judgement that their values are inferior and that you are a racist.

 

[nath]

You're clutching at straws here. It's not racist, the law as it stands (I believe) is publicly available to be read etc. If they want to come to this country they should follow that law.

 

[Ezteq]

have you ever heard this before "I can't be racist, I have lots of black friends!". Sorry, it's not quite as simple as that. Plus, racist doesn't have to mean someone who hates everyone who's not white...

<siiiiiiiiiiiigh> i totally give up, i refuse to read this thread any more because why bother no one pays attention to what you are saying "im not racist" ...."oooh yes you are!! i dont know you, have never met you irl, have no real reason to be so sure im right, but i am and your a racist!"

in one day someone has managed to turn this thread from an interesting discussion in to a school yard bickering contest
well done you

 

[Driwen]

Then you are imposing the cutural values of your country (which are the basis of law) on those from another, you are saying that their values are unacceptable. Quite understandably they are likely to take this as a judgement that their values are inferior and that you are a racist.

no as you do allow them to live in their own country with their values. However if they want to come to your country than they should accept your values or as nath said they should respect your values and dont do anything that would disrespect them. Like beating your wife or not allowing your wife to follow any kind of schooling as easy examples.

edit: ezteq than actually give reasons why he isnt. Bunnytwo seems to be saying that because Saudi and Afghanistan/pakistan are like that than every possible Islamic country will be like that, THAT is discrimination as you are generalizing versus a certain group as an Islamic country doesnt have to make every law on their religion and could seperate the Islam and the goverment that some or many Islamic countries dont do this, doesnt mean that it isnt possible nor that it is the proper explanation of the Islam.

 

[nath]

<siiiiiiiiiiiigh> i totally give up, i refuse to read this thread any more because why bother no one pays attention to what you are saying

What a pity, I'm sure you'll be missed.

 

[Bunnytwo]

You're clutching at straws here. It's not racist, the law as it stands (I believe) is publicly available to be read etc. If they want to come to this country they should follow that law.

Only problem there is this does not happen. In a number of examples the law has been ammended on the basis of cultural/religious grounds, the law as it stands is not compatible and so is ammended.

As for an earlier comment about having friends from other ethnicity doesn't prove I'm not a racist, yep true, but then that could be said about anyone, could argue that the person who made that comment could be a complete racist and the posts he has made are to hide this fact, could argue that a white guy who spent his life working against the white regime in South Africa and counted Nelson Mandella as his closest friend was a racist really and looked down on blacks.

P.S Funny how people who claim to be tolerant of all ideas and cultures fail so miserably in this respect when someone else's beliefs differ from their own. I mention aspects of Islam that I find distasteful bam I'm labelled a bigot, a c@nt, a moron. Wow not all that tolerant really are you?

Nath you still haven't mentioned what makes you think you're in a position to label people as morons, is it the Nobel Prize or the post graduate degree from Oxbridge?

 

[nath]

I like how you assume that it's simply because your ideas differ from my own that I've taken a particular distain from you. Yeah, right. That's the same reason I think Hitler was a bad sort - his opinions were not that of my own!

No - it's your specific opinions that I take issue with, though not all of them. One thing I find interesting:

I mention aspects of Islam that I find distasteful

I "labelled" you a racist because you bundled together the Islam faith and countries that commit horrible violations of human rights - claiming to be following that faith. If I go out now and mow down 20 people in my car, and later claim that there was some reason the Jewish faith led me to do it - are you going to have a problem with Judaism all of a sudden?

 

[Driwen]

As for an earlier comment about having friends from other ethnicity doesn't prove I'm not a racist, yep true, but then that could be said about anyone, could argue that the person who made that comment could be a complete racist and the posts he has made are to hide this fact, could argue that a white guy who spent his life working against the white regime in South Africa and counted Nelson Mandella as his closest friend was a racist really and looked down on blacks.

uhm ok, but you have said something discriminating and all those other people actually havent small difference.

P.S Funny how people who claim to be tolerant of all ideas and cultures fail so miserably in this respect when someone else's beliefs differ from their own. I mention aspects of Islam that I find distasteful bam I'm labelled a bigot, a c@nt, a moron. Wow not all that tolerant or intelligent really are you?

I dont think you are a bigot or someone I rather not have around. I do find it abit discriminating and dumb to think that because Saudi and Pakistan have unequal women rights that this is caused by the Islam and maintained by it and that all Islamic countries will have unequal rights for foreigners and women.
Sure the Islam might have parts in it that mean that non believers are worse, but the same goes for the Bible and probably for every other religion. Most (atleast western) countries are above this now and so will most likely most other countries sooner or later.

 

[Tom]

Funny how many people blame Religion for the world's problems, and not greedy people looking to control more land and people and resources just for the sake of it. I can't think of a single war off the top of my head that was religiously motivated, unless you consider the crusades.

 

[Driwen]

Funny how many people blame Religion for the world's problems, and not greedy people looking to control more land and people and resources just for the sake of it. I can't think of a single war off the top of my head that was religiously motivated, unless you consider the crusades.

and the crusades were more motivated to either get control over jerusalem or to try and stop the wars inside europe itself.

 

[Bunnytwo]

I like how you assume that it's simply because your ideas differ from my own that I've taken a particular distain from you. Yeah, right. That's the same reason I think Hitler was a bad sort - his opinions were not that of my own!

No - it's your specific opinions that I take issue with, though not all of them. One thing I find interesting:


I "labelled" you a racist because you bundled together the Islam faith and countries that commit horrible violations of human rights - claiming to be following that faith. If I go out now and mow down 20 people in my car, and later claim that there was some reason the Jewish faith led me to do it - are you going to have a problem with Judaism all of a sudden?

True, but then I'd like you to find where the Jewish religion says to kill people in your car. The Koran does say that Muslims should make war on the unbeliever, it does say that a husband may beat his wife if she is disobedient. I find these elements distasteful, you might not. Muslims who do this are not misinterpreting the religion. Yes many Muslims do not go around killing their neighbour who is not a Muslim, yes many Muslims don't beat their wife. However, if they chose to they have the Koran to justify their actions.

 

[nath]

"Muslims who do this are not misinterpreting the religion"

So Christians/Catholics who use the Bible to justify their vile and disgusting acts *are* misinterpreting the religion? In my time, I've come across some pretty unpleasant quotes from the Bible - it's not all nice either.

 

[Driwen]

True, but then I'd like you to find where the Jewish religion says to kill people in your car. The Koran does say that Muslims should make war on the unbeliever, it does say that a husband may beat his wife if she is disobedient. I find these elements distasteful, you might not. Muslims who do this are not misinterpreting the religion. Yes many Muslims do not go around killing their neighbour who is not a Muslim, yes many Muslims don't beat their wife. However, if they chose to they have the Koran to justify their actions.

Are you sure the part about war on unbelievers and wife beating is in it?
Talked to my mum who has read a translated version of the koran and she says both isnt in there. That is it isnt in the actual koran the one mohammed gave, it could be in the interpretations of the koran though.

Also the bible preaches unequal rights versus women and versus gays and it probably says alot of other stuff we ignore nowadays.

 

[Bunnytwo]

"Muslims who do this are not misinterpreting the religion"

So Christians/Catholics who use the Bible to justify their vile and disgusting acts *are* misinterpreting the religion? In my time, I've come across some pretty unpleasant quotes from the Bible - it's not all nice either.

Nope they would not be misinterpreting their religion. However, and this is a big however, they would be misinterpreting the Bible if they were using an element of the Bible which is superceeded by a later element, as the Bible does state that this is the case, e.g the New Testament takes priority over the Old. Thus a Christian following the "eye for an eye" principle would be misinterpreting as it is overwritten by "turn the other cheek" is they were following a part that had not been superceded then they wouldn't be misinterpreting.

In the Koran this is not the case all elements are equally true and it does state this, thus a Muslim who follows the part of the Koran that says they should respect the people of the Book (i.e Christians and Jews) is following Islam correctly as is the Muslim who straps a bomb to himself under the make war on the unbeliever element.

 

[Driwen]

In the Koran this is not the case all elements are equally true and it does state this, thus a Muslim who follows the part of the Koran that says they should respect the people of the Book (i.e Christians and Jews) is following Islam correctly as is the Muslim who straps a bomb to himself under the make war on the unbeliever element.

the koran is the part that has been writen down or dictated (dont know which) by Mohammed, this is the koran. Interpretations are made from this, but the koran is still the important part of it. The koran can not be changed, now do you actually know the Koran preaches the Jihad or is it the interpreter that is doing this?

note: with jihad i mean the war on the non believers. The koran probably does mention the Jihad, but it might mean it as in preaching the believe to other people not killing them untill everyone believes.