disgrace

[NeonBlue]

Going to a mosque is not the same as having religion forced down someones throats. It's seeing how people worship. Religion is a major factor in a lot of peoples lives. I've no doubt some of her friends are muslims, going to a mosque would allow her to see an important part of their lives and understand it.

TBH I wish more kids went to mosques. Islam is probably the most misunderstood and willfully misrepresented religion on the face of this planet these days.

And just because you hate religion doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it is very important to a lot of people and understanding is the key to harmony.

misunderstood in what way?

and as far as i know she doesnt have any friends that are muslim..but i cant be 100% sure on that

i dont hate religion...i just dont agree with it, i have no need for it,

but to me religion should be an optional choice

 

[yaruar]

misunderstood in what way?

and as far as i know she doesnt have any friends that are muslim..but i cant be 100% sure on that

i dont hate religion...i just dont agree with it, i have no need for it,

but to me religion should be an optional choice

But this isn't about being religious it's about understanding religons. Maybe you think it's a good thing to be ignorant and blininkered about the society we live in, that's your loss, why force the same upon your daughter?

 

[tris-]

ok say your daughter is at school. in 2 weeks she has an exam for SATs or something. the teacher is saying the kids must study religion none stop all week and visit churches and crap like that.

would you rather she did that, or did actuall work that matters? the point is, religion doesnt matter fuck all compared to being able to add 2+2 and read/write english. maybe in secondary school you get away with teaching RE but primary school is a no no.

 

[mts]

religion is evil. know your enemy. therefore, we must study about it in school.

 

[NeonBlue]

But this isn't about being religious it's about understanding religons. Maybe you think it's a good thing to be ignorant and blininkered about the society we live in, that's your loss, why force the same upon your daughter?

and why am i being ignorant exactly?

just because i dont believe in something that was manufactured to please the masses, why does this make me blinkered?

am not forcing anything upon my daughter...am saying she is too YOUNG...to learn or get to grips with the various different religions out there...if at any stage she expresses a wish to explore / learn about religions and i think she is at the right age to do so...then she is free to do as she wants

i can only assume from ur views that urself is religious or u deem religion to have some importantance in ur life?

 

[NeonBlue]

ok say your daughter is at school. in 2 weeks she has an exam for SATs or something. the teacher is saying the kids must study religion none stop all week and visit churches and crap like that.

would you rather she did that, or did actuall work that matters? the point is, religion doesnt matter fuck all compared to being able to add 2+2 and read/write english. maybe in secondary school you get away with teaching RE but primary school is a no no.

agree 110%!

 

[NeonBlue]

But this isn't about being religious it's about understanding religons.

and what has that got to do with anything exactly?

are you saying because we misunderstand the muslim religion...that we dont see why they cant be arsed to learn our language...they cant be arsed adapting to our laws, our culture...they cant be arsed intergrating

so its our fault for not understanding the religion...because if we did then we would know why they couldnt be arsed doing the above ?

 

[Tom]

This country has no native population. It has been slowly populated by immigrants for as long as history records.

I don't have a problem with people not knowing English and being a citizen here, after all, the Welsh, Scots and Cornish people were here many years before the Romans, Angles, Saxons and Normans, but we're not forced to learn Welsh or Gaelic, or even the Cornish dialect.

If an immigrant society as a whole can make a positive difference to this country, then I couldn't give a shit what language they speak. Just as long as they share my moral values.

 

[NeonBlue]

anyone watch that documentary on channel 4 tonight
"Who you calling a N.igger"

(before anyone has a pop at me that was the programmes name!)

was rather interesting...but not suprising

 

[chipper]

This country has no native population. It has been slowly populated by immigrants for as long as history records.

I don't have a problem with people not knowing English and being a citizen here, after all, the Welsh, Scots and Cornish people were here many years before the Romans, Angles, Saxons and Normans, but we're not forced to learn Welsh or Gaelic, or even the Cornish dialect.

If an immigrant society as a whole can make a positive difference to this country, then I couldn't give a shit what language they speak. Just as long as they share my moral values.

lets not forget that even though those dialects are still alive in ireland wales scotland etc what do the masses speak ? english although i still believe welsh is taught in some schools which is commendable its good they have some tradition they can give to the next generation.
ppl saying we english refuse to learn other languages well to be honest whats the point english is spoken all over the world believe me id love to learn another language not because i have to but because i want to most large companies world wide and there governing bodies speak fluent english

about the last paragraph thats just it m8 they dont share this countries moral values a vast amount anyway how can they make a positive impact on society when they refuse to learn the local lingo refuse to work refuse to respect our social and religious values im not saying they have to become us im just saying they should respect the way things are and try to adapt instead of saying omg your oppressing me and then the media has a fukin field day saying we all a bunch of racist assholes yeah well that coin lands both sides how ever racist we are as a nation or me i dont consider myself racist but i do have issues with certain groups in this country and no there not all coloured before anyone tries to pin that on me you can guarntee those same ppl have exactly the same problems with us.

 

[yaruar]

i can only assume from ur views that urself is religious or u deem religion to have some importantance in ur life?

No, i'm a confirmed athiest, but i also understand that society is a complex thing made up of many differerent people, ideas, cultures and philosophies. Education should not be purely based around logic, it should also encompass learning and understanding the world in which we live. History, politics, social awareness should be taught. Yes i agree that it's important to learn the academic basics such as mathematics and language, but it's also important to learn about why people are the way they are and understand the differences and similarities between them. When i have children part of their education will involve being taught about why people look different, why they act in different ways and how cultures differ. Mainly because i don't want any children of mine to grow up ignorant and prejudiced.

 

[tris-]

yes yaruar, when your 11+, learning should include things like you mentioned.

but at 7 years old? thats the whole point. its not about that we shouldnt learn it, ever. its about learning it at such a young age. at 7 years old, kids have no need to understand anything like that!

 

[Ormorof]

ppl saying we english refuse to learn other languages well to be honest whats the point english is spoken all over the world

so its ok for an english person to not bother to speak local language in another country but not ok for an immigrant to england not to bother learning english?

 

[yaruar]

yes yaruar, when your 11+, learning should include things like you mentioned.

but at 7 years old? thats the whole point. its not about that we shouldnt learn it, ever. its about learning it at such a young age. at 7 years old, kids have no need to understand anything like that!

i think they do, most social attitudes are learned and reinforced well before the age of 11. If we are to develop a more knowledgable and tolerant society we need to teach lessons about society earlier in the curriculum.

 

[old.Tohtori]

the above statement has surely got to be the most stupid thing i heard in a long time. <points at old.Tohtori>

if it was upto me id close the borders and kick all these illegal fukers out the country white black fuking green i dont care.

this country and its government ....

My statement stupid and you still manage to top it off with yours.

Oh by the way Mr Patriot, all of us ain't from your precious island so i really don't give a f*ck about your politics, i was talking about the post.

which bit and why?

...the kiwi described him as looking like bin ladens brother.. big white beard, wearing full white muslim robes and all that. now what REALLY got me, was that this muslim ...

This part tipped the scale for me i guess. Hell, i was asked to say if i thought it was racist.

 

[Bunnytwo]

Going to a mosque is not the same as having religion forced down someones throats. It's seeing how people worship. Religion is a major factor in a lot of peoples lives. I've no doubt some of her friends are muslims, going to a mosque would allow her to see an important part of their lives and understand it.

TBH I wish more kids went to mosques. Islam is probably the most misunderstood and willfully misrepresented religion on the face of this planet these days.

Couldn't agree more, however, I would go further and say children should go on school trips to the home of Islam and see Saudi Arabia, then they will have a true understanding of Islam.

They can see the fact that the practice of no other religion is tolerated there. They can see the priests in prison for trying to preach mass. They could visit the graves of people who have been caught trying to smuggle bibles into the country and were executed (not long ago either). They could go to a court and see how under muslim law a non-muslim may not give evidence against a muslim. They can be told about the westerners who were sentenced to partial decapitation followed by crucifixion after being fitted up for bombings in the capital (the punishment being tailored to the fact that they were Christians).

I think then they will have a proper understanding about Islam. Not the Islam which is restrained by the fact that they are a very small minority, but Islam when it is the majority and is not in a secular or westernised state.

"fight and slay the pagan (idolaters) wherever you find them" (9:5); and "strike off their heads in battle" (47:5); and "make war on the unbeliever in Allah, until they pay tribute" (9:29); and "Fight then...until the religion be all of it Allah's" (8:39);

The last on is my favorite quote form the Koran, though the one about Muslims not having Christians as friends (need to dig that one out) doesn't really bode well for harmony between religions either (though hell of a lot better than for other religions).

Do hope the children are introduced to these areas of Islam (which are central, cos just look at Mohammed's life) on their visits.

 

[Escape]

if they're gonna go live in they're little social groups, and tlak they're own language, fair enough (even tho this does cause ALOT of trouble, my dad works in bradford... the number of random fights and riots he's seen just because of the clash of societies is unbeleivable.... and in fairness, the britts were there first). but anyway, even if you are gonna live in one of these 'groups', its still taking the piss that you cant speak a word of english.... its just rude and anti-social, it suggests that you have no interest in intergrating into the society you now belong to, and just want to keep yourself to yourself in your own social group, which causes trouble.

The British empire didn't show much respect to the locals when they went to India and to this day, Kashmir is having trouble because of how the empire divided the countries. The older generation of asians will remember the Pakistan/India wars and if they now want to come over and abuse the social security system of the country which meddled with their lives... well, they could probably justify it more than you.

I don't see a serious problem with retired people not knowing the language. But I was passing through Rochdale once and met teenagers who were born in England and couldn't speak English. Now that is an issue.

 

[yaruar]

Couldn't agree more, however, I would go further and say children should go on school trips to the home of Islam and see Saudi Arabia, then they will have a true understanding of Islam.

They can see the fact that the practice of no other religion is tolerated there. They can see the priests in prison for trying to preach mass. They could visit the graves of people who have been caught trying to smuggle bibles into the country and were executed (not long ago either). They could go to a court and see how under muslim law a non-muslim may not give evidence against a muslim. They can be told about the westerners who were sentenced to partial decapitation followed by crucifixion after being fitted up for bombings in the capital (the punishment being tailored to the fact that they were Christians).

I think then they will have a proper understanding about Islam. Not the Islam which is restrained by the fact that they are a very small minority, but Islam when it is the majority and is not in a secular or westernised state.

"fight and slay the pagan (idolaters) wherever you find them" (9:5); and "strike off their heads in battle" (47:5); and "make war on the unbeliever in Allah, until they pay tribute" (9:29); and "Fight then...until the religion be all of it Allah's" (8:39);

The last on is my favorite quote form the Koran, though the one about Muslims not having Christians as friends (need to dig that one out) doesn't really bode well for harmony between religions either (though hell of a lot better than for other religions).

Do hope the children are introduced to these areas of Islam (which are central, cos just look at Mohammed's life) on their visits.

Sharia law /= islam
Or should we hold up the USA as the example of christian society. A country led by the greatest executioner in Texas history who is a warmonger and invader of foreign nations and who uses his military and economic might to terrorise all the other nations on earth. A country where money can buy you freedom (oj simpson, et al.) and poverty can be punishable by barbaric death (electric chair just because your state apointed lawyer was incompetant or lazy.....) A fine example of christanity.

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

if they know our language, and if they accept our traffic rules, if they don't steal or break the law in any other way, if they wash themselves they can stay.... IF they get a job and don't live on our tax money!
if it's war in their own country they can come and stay a while, but as soon as the war is over their asses should be kicked back where it belongs!

no i dont hate foreigners but i dont want them in my neighbourhood unless they can behave...
if a norwegian steal, rape and kill, there is nothing we can do about it exept throw him to jail, but if a foreigner does it we can kick him the hell out imo!

 

[yaruar]

if they know our language, and if they accept our traffic rules, if they don't steal or break the law in any other way, if they wash themselves they can stay.... IF they get a job and don't live on our tax money!

WHat about the large proportion of British citizens who steal and are violent, who spend their lives sponging off taxpayers like me, waht do we do about them

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

kick em out imo
edit: oh misunderstood, English ppl that are thieves in their own country u cant do anything about, but the foregners that are thieves in england should be kicked out

 

[Escape]

They can see the fact that the practice of no other religion is tolerated there. They can see the priests in prison for trying to preach mass. They could visit the graves of people who have been caught trying to smuggle bibles into the country and were executed (not long ago either). They could go to a court and see how under muslim law a non-muslim may not give evidence against a muslim. They can be told about the westerners who were sentenced to partial decapitation followed by crucifixion after being fitted up for bombings in the capital (the punishment being tailored to the fact that they were Christians).

You forgot: Use lies and propoganda to wage war whenever you can make a profit...
or wait, that's how the UK/US do things.


The Saudi leaders are corrupt, why do you think Osama went postal in the first place?
Selectively quoting verses to your needs doesn't help your argument. Islam tolerates other religions, and even in an islamic country, other religions are free to practice their beliefs. For how many centuries was Jerusalem ruled by Muslims and allowed Christians and Jews to practice their religions there? Were these Muslims ignoring the Quran? Or did they understand the teachings as a whole, without misquoting some verses as an excuse for slaughter.

If you study the history of Islam and see from 700AD onwards, the countries under Islamic rule were some of the most advanced in the world. Baghdad was an international learning center and these benefits weren't restricted to Muslims, but people from around the world went there to learn. Would this have happend with a fanatical religion which you're trying to describe?

The trouble now is with the media giving a negative image of Islam(How many times have you heard of the "fundamentalist Protestants" or "Christian Terrorists" in NI?), everytime you hear 'Muslim' or 'Islam', the word is prefixed with a negative word which will subconsciously affect the listener. After some five years of this happening, it's no wonder people are suspicious of Muslims.

 

[NeonBlue]

No, i'm a confirmed athiest, but i also understand that society is a complex thing made up of many differerent people, ideas, cultures and philosophies. Education should not be purely based around logic, it should also encompass learning and understanding the world in which we live. History, politics, social awareness should be taught. Yes i agree that it's important to learn the academic basics such as mathematics and language, but it's also important to learn about why people are the way they are and understand the differences and similarities between them. When i have children part of their education will involve being taught about why people look different, why they act in different ways and how cultures differ. Mainly because i don't want any children of mine to grow up ignorant and prejudiced.

thats fair enough....i didnt say at any point i didnt want her to learn those things...i just want her to do them at a reasonable age so she understands them...and 7yrs old aint that age

 

[NeonBlue]

so its ok for an english person to not bother to speak local language in another country but not ok for an immigrant to england not to bother learning english?

no i aint saying that....if i moved to another country i WOULD WANT to learn the local language to help me adapt and fit in..not only would it benefit me (a 2nd language, but i reckon i would gain more respect from the locals too)

But the fact remains that in this country alot of ethnic groups especially the muslims community just DONT/WONT

and if anyone watched that programme i mentioned on channel 4 last night it just proved my point even more...2 Asian lads they tried to interview had the balls to say that England is and will become another Pakistan because thats what they was aiming for and to make it THEIR country...

its that kind of attitude i dont like and if Pakistan is that great and they arent willing to intergrate here, then imo go HOME!

The area they lived in Walsaw i think it was had become a NO go area for anyone of any other culture because the Asians there wouldnt allow anyone through and did all they could to intimmidate (sp?) people who entered that area, and at night gangs of Asian would set about anyone they didnt like. THis shouldnt be allowed to happen

Btw the programme (if anyone is interested) was about not blacks & whites...but about black v black and how the Asain community hates everyone except their own and how the Caribeanian (sp?) groups were now targets of racism from the Asians and at 1 point the Asian lads started to threaten the programme maker / interviewer who was a 40-50 aged 6ft Jamacian guy

Point am making is...that alot of racism wouldnt exsist if this type of behaviour wasnt allowed to happen and ppl are very narrow minded if they think all the racism comes from white ppl, infact i would go far to say that some of the Asian communties who tend mainly to be Muslims make their own racism by the fact they wont intergrate and get along

 

[Bunnytwo]

You forgot: Use lies and propoganda to wage war whenever you can make a profit...
or wait, that's how the UK/US do things.

The Saudi leaders are corrupt, why do you think Osama went postal in the first place?
Selectively quoting verses to your needs doesn't help your argument. Islam tolerates other religions, and even in an islamic country, other religions are free to practice their beliefs. For how many centuries was Jerusalem ruled by Muslims and allowed Christians and Jews to practice their religions there? Were these Muslims ignoring the Quran? Or did they understand the teachings as a whole, without misquoting some verses as an excuse for slaughter.

If you study the history of Islam and see from 700AD onwards, the countries under Islamic rule were some of the most advanced in the world. Baghdad was an international learning center and these benefits weren't restricted to Muslims, but people from around the world went there to learn. Would this have happend with a fanatical religion which you're trying to describe?

The trouble now is with the media giving a negative image of Islam(How many times have you heard of the "fundamentalist Protestants" or "Christian Terrorists" in NI?), everytime you hear 'Muslim' or 'Islam', the word is prefixed with a negative word which will subconsciously affect the listener. After some five years of this happening, it's no wonder people are suspicious of Muslims.

Only problem there m8 is that they happened so aren't lies. And well you are being even more selective than me. Wow Hitler allowed some Jews in his army and regime for practical purposes, why not look at how they flourished, rather than the millions who were killed and you can argue that he was a tolerant man.

Yes Jerusalem was under Muslim control and yes Jews and Christians were tolerated, but maybe you should also mention that this was under the terms of a treaty after the 3rd Crusade, it wasn't a decision that they made out of the goodness of their hearts it was to get the crusader army to go home. Bagdad was a centre of excellence, and that was largely because of the Jews there, they were tolerated because they had great technical knowledge, in the same way as above Hitler had Jewish generals and experts in his regime (and they still had periodic pogroms going on).

As for a general toleration of the Jews (and unbelievers) maybe you would be better looking at the activities of Mohammed himself. For example, the 800 Jews of Medina he slaughtered in 627AD, the Jews at Bani Qurayzah where the men were all killed while the women and children were taken as slaves and concubines (Including a lovely 6 year old that he took as his wife (though he did wait till she was 9 before boffing her at the ripe old age of 53)) etc. In light of the examples from the prophet's life the fundamentalists aren't misquoting when they quote the koran as an excuse for slaughter.

Maybe you should look at the conflicts large and small going on around the world at the moment, you will probably find that peace loving and tolerant Islam is involved in more than any other religion, political belief etc.

BTW guess who commits most anti-semitic attacks in this country? It isn't the National Front.

Not saying all Muslims are bad, I have and have had Muslim friends and they can't stand these elements of Islam (and recognise that fundamentalists are not a small minority around the world, but a very strong and well backed (often government backed) force). The terrorists are Muslim, they are encouraged by a significant number of Muslim clerics and they receive financial backing from Muslims. How would you have the media call them, apart from Islamic Fundamentalists or Islamic Extremists? They are actually distinguishing between them and the majority.

BTW yes the house of Saud is corrupt, which is probably why it has backed Islamic terrorism. An example of which is the pension that it pays to the family of suicide bombers in Israel. Can't remember any attacks on non-westerners in Saudi, if any have been killed its been in the cross-fire.

If you want to get a true understanding of Islam try living in a country that is run under full Islamic law, not a westernised largely secular country. (I have, it was bloody awful, complete with religious police, thankfully had the option of coming back after 6 months, my father had the joy of living in one for 13 years). They are not tolerant of others, you live their way or else you'll wish you had.

 

[Ezteq]

The trouble now is with the media giving a negative image of Islam.

rofl well thats not intirely true, everytime i see the news they are increadibly biast on the side of the muslims, infact they seem to be on everyones side except the side of your average white british person.

there was a case in scotland where a gang of black boys killed a white lad who was younger than them that story got about 2 minutes coverage, just remind me how long the stories of stephen lawrence went on for? both cases were disgusting that a gang could set upon a single person and beat them to death is totally abhorrant but in order to keep the peace and not invoke racial hatered they swept the story about the white guy under the carpet.

and with the news items on muslims they wont tell you about the gangs of em up north that drag people out of their cars and make em swear allegance (sp?) to their god, or the threats that get put upon people by them, as far as the news goes they can do no wrong and we are the scumbags. im not making a statement about muslims or blacks or foriegners in general what im on about is how predjudiced the reporting of news really is for fear of upsetting some ethnic group or another so the news has gone in to ultra submissive mode "oooh there was a crime with a white person as the victim, best not mention that might upset the minoritys.........ooh crime against a black person/muslim whatever omg lets be overly sympathetic and make out that all white brits are fascist scumbags so they know we're not oppressing them"

tbh it makes me sick, i know this is naieve and never going to happen but i really wish that it could stop being a compettition over who's the most hard done by, that people would stop trying to force others to see their point of view and we could all just bloody well get along but the more one side pushes the harder the other side is going to push back and its just all going to end in tears!

sod the lot of em, i wash my hands of the whole affair, leave me alone im going to bed :touch:

 

[NeonBlue]

rofl well thats not intirely true, everytime i see the news they are increadibly biast on the side of the muslims, infact they seem to be on everyones side except the side of your average white british person.

there was a case in scotland where a gang of black boys killed a white lad who was younger than them that story got about 2 minutes coverage, just remind me how long the stories of stephen lawrence went on for? both cases were disgusting that a gang could set upon a single person and beat them to death is totally abhorrant but in order to keep the peace and not invoke racial hatered they swept the story about the white guy under the carpet.

and with the news items on muslims they wont tell you about the gangs of em up north that drag people out of their cars and make em swear allegance (sp?) to their god, or the threats that get put upon people by them, as far as the news goes they can do no wrong and we are the scumbags. im not making a statement about muslims or blacks or foriegners in general what im on about is how predjudiced the reporting of news really is for fear of upsetting some ethnic group or another so the news has gone in to ultra submissive mode "oooh there was a crime with a white person as the victim, best not mention that might upset the minoritys.........ooh crime against a black person/muslim whatever omg lets be overly sympathetic and make out that all white brits are fascist scumbags so they know we're not oppressing them"

tbh it makes me sick, i know this is naieve and never going to happen but i really wish that it could stop being a compettition over who's the most hard done by, that people would stop trying to force others to see their point of view and we could all just bloody well get along but the more one side pushes the harder the other side is going to push back and its just all going to end in tears!

sod the lot of em, i wash my hands of the whole affair, leave me alone im going to bed :touch:

glad someone else isnt as blind as everyone else seems to be
(especially the fecking media!)

 

[[SS]Gamblor]

any1 read "Dude where's my country ?"

it goes into the Saudi Royal Family. well that and bashing M.r Bush.

was a good read =)

as for the bigots in all culturers , there are many.
I myself can't stand it. I'm a open person i judge peeps on their actions
rather than race, Colour , Creed or religon.

 

[tris-]

this country is too PC. they cant show asian/black people being bad because it would be racist.

but its not illegal to intice racial hatred is it? i dont think they passed it at the commons yet to make it illegal.

im not saying we should be racist but fuck sake you cant not talk about crimes just because the guy who did it was black/asian! if they live in this country they should be shown the same way as a white english person.

 

[Mojo]

I agree with the last few posters, I think your all hitting the nail well on the head.


Bring back Maggie T