disgrace

[Bunnytwo]

the koran is the part that has been writen down or dictated (dont know which) by Mohammed, this is the koran. Interpretations are made from this, but the koran is still the important part of it. The koran can not be changed, now do you actually know the Koran preaches the Jihad or is it the interpreter that is doing this?

note: with jihad i mean the war on the non believers. The koran probably does mention the Jihad, but it might mean it as in preaching the believe to other people not killing them untill everyone believes.

"fight and slay the pagan (idolaters) wherever you find them" (sura 9:5); "strike off their heads in battle" (sura 47:5); "make war on the unbeliever in Allah, until they pay tribute" (sura 9:29);

Sura 8:36-41
36. The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;-

37. In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.

38. Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

40. If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help.

41. And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.

 

[nath]

The fact is, there's a lot of stuff in the Bible (new testament too) that could lead people to be very intolerant and even assume that they should murder people. Of course, others would say you'd have to be mad to do this, I'd say the same about the Koran. I think your average muslim doesn't want to kill anyone, also perhaps doesn't agree or chooses not to follow the parts of the Koran that tells its followers to commit murder. If such passages even exist.

My original point was that it's good that kids are being taken to mosques to see a major part of their classmates lives. I highly doubt that murder and human rights violations are also a part of their lives.

 

[Bunnytwo]

The fact is, there's a lot of stuff in the Bible (new testament too) that could lead people to be very intolerant and even assume that they should murder people. Of course, others would say you'd have to be mad to do this, I'd say the same about the Koran. I think your average muslim doesn't want to kill anyone, also perhaps doesn't agree or chooses not to follow the parts of the Koran that tells its followers to commit murder. If such passages even exist.

My original point was that it's good that kids are being taken to mosques to see a major part of their classmates lives. I highly doubt that murder and human rights violations are also a part of their lives.

Can't think of any part of the New Testament that justifies murdering people. Just as a matter of interest are the Muslim classmates being taken to churches and Jewish and Hindu temples to learn about their classmates' lives?

 

[Escape]

have you ever heard this before "I can't be racist, I have lots of black friends!". Sorry, it's not quite as simple as that. Plus, racist doesn't have to mean someone who hates everyone who's not white...

yeah, that always makes me laugh to. I'd drive around with a car sticker:
"I'm not racist, my best friend's a niger"

...but I'd probably get arrested with people missing the irony


Christianity is probably the most diluted religion in the world. You can't say Christians don't do this or that, because the Christians of today are different to those who went before. And how many Christians did you meet in school? I knew two people in my class who went to church, one had a father who was a priest and the other was a Jehovah Witness.

England is largely an Atheist country now, did any figures come out from the Census on the UK's religious-belief percentages?


Religious/culture studies should be taught in schools, because most people will use that knowledge more in life, than maths/science/pe...

 

[nath]

Can't think of any part of the New Testament that justifies murdering people. Just as a matter of interest are the Muslim classmates being taken to churches and Jewish and Hindu temples to learn about their classmates' lives?

I've no idea, if not they should.

Sura 8:36-41
36. The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;-

37. In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.

38. Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

40. If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help.

41. And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.

There's not a whole lot there that's any worse than the Bible.

 

[Escape]

Can't think of any part of the New Testament that justifies murdering people. Just as a matter of interest are the Muslim classmates being taken to churches and Jewish and Hindu temples to learn about their classmates' lives?

You don't have a problem with religion being changed to suit the masses?
What's the point of following a belief, if you'll revise it to suit your views.


+ where you've made references to Palestinain suicide bombers, you conveniently forgot to mention them being bombed on the road by Israeli gunships, or having their houses bulldozed while they're sleeping inside or being forced to live in a warzone where everyone knows a family member or friend who's bee killed/tortured/arrested by israeli forces. But maybe because the Israelis elected a convicted war criminal to lead them, you will see it as acceptable?

 

[Bunnytwo]

You don't have a problem with religion being changed to suit the masses?
What's the point of following a belief, if you'll revise it to suit your views.


+ where you've made references to Palestinain suicide bombers, you conveniently forgot to mention them being bombed on the road by Israeli gunships, or having their houses bulldozed while they're sleeping inside or being forced to live in a warzone where everyone knows a family member or friend who's bee killed/tortured/arrested by israeli forces. But maybe because the Israelis elected a convicted war criminal to lead them, you will see it as acceptable?

So the Israelis taking out the leader of a terrorist group with a missile is comparable to his men having blown up a school bus?

Or mention that the houses that are bulldozed are either because they are being used as sniper/mortar positions or because they belong to the families of suicide bombers who are receiving a hefty pension as a result.

And aren't the Israelis justified in it all because I'm sure they will have friends/family that have been killed and injured in attacks. And you think Arafat isn't a war criminal or is blowing up children a war crime in your book, which his forces are hardly attempted to stop.

 

[nath]

Oh dear, we're moving on to Israel/Palestine? Gosh.

The cold hard truth on that matter is that NEITHER side are without blame. I don't see how it's going to be resolved as Arafat and Sharon are as bad as each other.

 

[NeonBlue]

Just as a matter of interest are the Muslim classmates being taken to churches and Jewish and Hindu temples to learn about their classmates' lives?

not at my daughters school they aint

As far as i know they aint allowed to enter our churches...because its against their religion (suprise suprise)

And i doubt the Hindus would allow em to enter their temples since they HATE the Muslims with a passion

As for the Jewish Synagogue's not a clue on that one

 

[Morchaoron]

imo leave kids + relegion divided until they reached the age where they can think about it with a clear mind and not with a kids mind which believes most of the stuff adults tell them...

 

[nath]

I would be inclined to agree, but kids are going to hear negative things about the muslim religion anyway, and since it's likely to be a fairly major part of their classmates lives I think it's a good idea to teach them what it's really about for the average decent muslim.

 

[NeonBlue]

To me personally religion is a private thing and should be kept private it shouldnt be forced onto others, it shouldnt effect your attitude towards someone etc

Yes kids should be taught it as its abig part of life but as ive said before i think this should be done at a reasonable age when they are able to graps the concepts of it.

Personally i couldnt give a flying monekys what religion you are...what colour you are...what colour underwear you wear...aslong as you treat me with the same respect you would like to be treat with

Sadly the Muslims in this country dont do that...and if this makes me racist against Muslim then so be it.

But until they are willing to accept our laws,culture, make an effort to learn our language, intergrate and not try and take over which it seems they are trying to do, they will always get "hatred" directed at themselves.

Its funny how basically any other community in this country can adapt & intergrate and have no problems whatso ever , but it says something when other ethnic groups cant stand the muslims either.

You would think the Muslims would take a look at themselves and think why does it seem everyone "hates" us..but they act as if the dont care, so in a way make their own racism

But on another note i think our government has alot to answer for too...because when it comes to race they are way way to soft when it comes to these ethnic groups, they get away with far too much,
because the government darent do anything incase they get called racist.

Long ago the government should of introduce complusory tests for ppl coming into thos country...whereby you had to be able to speak & write English & pass an exam before being allowed Citzenship.

Its only now that the government are considering this...where as i think most other European countries have had this sort thing in place for years.

Also doesnt help when our government decides to bend the rules concerning asylum seekers or immigrants by giving them money food housing cars mobile phones and jobs. Why should these people be given special treatment? why should they get things that the British couldnt get themselves

Lists can go on & on...nothing will change unless something is done soon, and if things dont change its only gonna be a certain amount of time before the people have had enough and the situation gets out of hand

 

[Escape]

So the Israelis taking out the leader of a terrorist group with a missile is comparable to his men having blown up a school bus?

Or mention that the houses that are bulldozed are either because they are being used as sniper/mortar positions or because they belong to the families of suicide bombers who are receiving a hefty pension as a result.

And aren't the Israelis justified in it all because I'm sure they will have friends/family that have been killed and injured in attacks. And you think Arafat isn't a war criminal or is blowing up children a war crime in your book, which his forces are hardly attempted to stop.

Define Terrorist. The Israeli forces are as irresponsible as the Palestinian resistence. Just because one is officially sanctioned, doesn't make them right in what they do.

Perception is what is wrong with the world, there're too many objective views. Two people can commit the same action, and one will be justified while another is wrong. It's all to do with how much bullshit you can feed the masses and how readily they believe you.

If Gunships are shooting down suspects and killing civilians(+children) in the process, then it is as bad as a suicide bomber blowing up civilians. You say Israelis are justified in killing palestinians, because of the losses they've taken. Palestinians say the same. I don't see a difference.

You're also saying people can be bulldozed and get crushed while they sleep, because the house was given to them for having a suicide bomber in the family? Explain why this makes sense to you.

You see you are the victim of propoganda. As I mentioned earlier, state controlled media(CNN, BBC etc) will tell people who to like and who to hate. They need people like you to belive their bullshit, so well done on being a good citizen

 

[NeonBlue]

I would be inclined to agree, but kids are going to hear negative things about the muslim religion anyway, and since it's likely to be a fairly major part of their classmates lives I think it's a good idea to teach them what it's really about for the average decent muslim.

fair enough...

but isnt it a major part of a kids school life to invite their classmates to "tea" or to birthday parties or go and play with their mates after school?

funny how my daughter never sees any of her muslim class mates outside school, funny how everytime she asks 1 to "tea" or 1 to come and play, the answer is always the same , her friend isnt allowed to come to tea or play with her.

Again showing that they just aint interested intergrating or getting along...so why the hell would it be beneficial to my daughter to learn about Islam when all she sees is these people rejecting her

 

[Escape]

I don't know which backwater village you're from Neon... but around here we have an almost equal number of white/black/asians living together. If you brought you're ignorant views here, you'd most likely be beaten up by the white community first.

No everyone isn't living in perfect harmony, but that's to do with general crime. There's no racial tension between any of the groups and most live/work together without problems.

What do you mean by "Integration". Do you want immigrants to dress, eat, talk, walk like you? Forget their cultures and embrace British values(which are currently dictated by the bald, lesbian thought-police). Or are you saying they should be more open with the other communities? I've been through alot of England's cities and where there's a racial majority, there will be problems caused by xenophobia. Whether that majority is white/black/asian. In mixed communities, you won't find as much tension.

 

[NeonBlue]

I don't know which backwater village you're from Neon... but around here we have an almost equal number of white/black/asians living together. If you brought you're ignorant views here, you'd most likely be beaten up by the white community first.

backwater? LOL

I could say where do you get off at looking down on people thinking you know everything...what give you the right to think am ignorant?

Just because i dont agree with you views? or just because i express my opinions based on what i know & see everyday

Everything ive said...ive experienced...everything ive experienced is down to me trying to get along with these people...in some cases bending over backwards for em. Ive spent years trying to get to know these people about their way of life their religion..their values etc.

Have i been given the same respect ...simple answer is no

In mixed communities, you won't find as much tension

Utter Crap

No everyone isn't living in perfect harmony, but that's to do with general crime

This has nothing to do with crime what so ever...but if you want to talk about crime why was it ok for the Asians in Bradford to cause £20 million worth of damage during the Bardford riots?...why was it when any Asain youths got arrested the rest of the community came out and rioted?

This is acceptable to you?

What do you mean by "Integration". Do you want immigrants to dress, eat, talk, walk like you? Forget their cultures and embrace British values(which are currently dictated by the bald, lesbian thought-police). Or are you saying they should be more open with the other communities? I've been through alot of England's cities and where there's a racial majority, there will be problems caused by xenophobia. Whether that majority is white/black/asian. In mixed communities, you won't find as much tension.

Am not saying any of the above...am saying they sould be willing to learn our culture...they be should willing to learn our language...and they should be willing to get along, they should abide by our laws and accept them without screaming "racist" all the time

But time after time they prove they have no intention of doing this

As for me being ignornant...nah, i read peoples points i can see their views, i can their arguments for and against, am willing to stand correct or accept when am wrong

As for you ,throughout your posts you like to "look down" on people, you like to think your always right...you come across as "holier than thou"
thats ignorance

In my part of the world you views wouldnt stand any water because daily events would just blow it all away

 

[Escape]

This has nothing to do with crime what so ever...but if you want to talk about crime why was it ok for the Asians in Bradford to cause £20 million worth of damage during the Bardford riots?...why was it when any Asain youths got arrested the rest of the community came out and rioted?

This is acceptable to you?

Definately not. If someone commits the crime, they should be arrested/charged regardless of race. Not doing so is itself racist.

afaik the youths who were at the center of the riots were arrested? the community elders worked with the police to weed them out. That's the news we got here in the south anyway. I tend to avoid places like Bradford/Sheffield... they're depressing cities

 

[Driwen]

"fight and slay the pagan (idolaters) wherever you find them" (sura 9:5); "strike off their heads in battle" (sura 47:5); "make war on the unbeliever in Allah, until they pay tribute" (sura 9:29);

doesnt say who the pagans are though meaning the 9:5 ones. 47:4 you actually mean there and to cut of the enemies head in war isnt that horrible. Currently most countries use more horrible ways of fighting their enemies.

9:29 is refering to that unbelievers should pay tribute and be humble when living in islamic countries.

Sura 8:36-41
36. The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;-

37. In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.

38. Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

40. If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help.

41. And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.

sura 8 is about the spoils of war, so off course there is talk about fighting and as the people of the koran is seen as one people(in the eyes of the koran) there can be no war between them.

39 doesnt mean you should fight until they believe the koran, but till there is no more oppression of the koran.
41 is talking about when they were going to fight the meccans, so that day where the armies meet has already happened.

So yes there is some hate preaching in it, but there is also that in the bible and it still doesnt mean that Islamic countries will be for ever doomed to hate the west.

and neonblue that has very little to do with the Islam and more to do with different races and bad integration. I dont think the Koran says you can not meet with non believers, but it will be parents/father who dont want their kids to hear or see other ways of living most likely. Yes that is bad, but it isnt the same thing as that the Islam is bad.

 

[Mojo]

I see where neon is comeing from, here is why.


I thought the ethnic kids in my school were way more intersting than everyone else and i used to hang out with them a lot in and out of school. All appart from the Muslims, as sad as it was i never saw any out of school never had any turn up at my birthdays and was never invited to hang out at either, but yet in school we got on very well. i got the sense that they were not allowed not that they didn't want to (back to the parents really)


/edit i am 31 now btw, I have no muslim friends, in fact i have no religouse freinds at all, am i a racist?
I think not, i have many friends from many origins and tbh i never really think about it, the one thing we all have in common regardless of any personal tastes in music/food culture is that were are all either atheist or agnostic.

 

[NeonBlue]

Definately not. If someone commits the crime, they should be arrested/charged regardless of race. Not doing so is itself racist.

afaik the youths who were at the center of the riots were arrested? the community elders worked with the police to weed them out. That's the news we got here in the south anyway. I tend to avoid places like Bradford/Sheffield... they're depressing cities

Well the backwater you presume i live in is Yorkshire...infact not very far from Bradford...ive lived in Bradford and the surrounding areas, which has mixed communites and various religions.

Chinese,Polish,Kurds,Seikhs,Muslim,Hindus,Caribbean

you name it we probably got it up here

and the ONLY community to cause any trouble and is the centre of trouble everytime is the Muslims

Now if these ppl are so wonderful as you make them out to be...why you think that is?

afaik the youths who were at the center of the riots were arrested? the community elders worked with the police to weed them out. That's the news we got here in the south anyway

And i suppose the story you got told about how the riots were started was the 1 linking the BNP who incited them?

Some community Elders did there best to help the police...but the majority of them turned a blind eye as they was too ashamed of their younger generation but also knew the grief they would get from the young Asians if they did interfere

The other story about why the riots started...is the 1 about 6 Asain youths who got arrested for stealing cars and joyriding. But they thought they was above the law and started crying "racism"...they then got all their family and friends to picket the police station at which they was being held.

You can guess the rest

Now what annoyed me at the time during the riots was that the police not only had a hell of a job to do...but they were getting blamed for being racist...police brutality all because it was Asians

In my eyes the police were way too soft...if that had been a riot say involving white ppl...it would of been cleared up within hours..the police would of gone as they normally do and sorted it. Because this was very large group of Asians they were told to try the softly softly approach...the Mayor and council of Bradford ( which is 90% Asian btw) all said they would sort it out by talking to the Elders...everyone knew that wouldnt do jack.

Basically because it was an ethnic group they was dealing with the police werent allowed to handle the riot as they would if it had been whites, and after the riots the majority of the offenders were suprisingly never caught or got let off with a slapped wrist.

Bradford was left with £20mill worth of damage, busniess, homes were destroyed just because these people couldnt get their own way and wouldnt abide by our laws..thats what i mean when talking about intergrating.

They should accept our laws and accept the punishment that comes with them..instead of screaming "racism" all the time and then kicking off a riot

Also lets no forget the NO go areas there is...certain parts in my area you cant walk down the streets without fear of having van loads of Asians jumping out and mugging/assaulting/raping

So dont tell me am ignornant

 

[Tsabo]

Blimey, this thread has really taken off.

But I s'pose you would of thought that by now'a'days religous backgrounds and culture backgrounds wouldn't matter to people. But unfortunatly there are alot of ppl that are afraid of or disagree with other peoples beleifs to such an extent that they would easily be able to say they hate anyone of that origin.

TBH, every man/woman to their own I say.

You wanna beleive in god? You beleive in god!
You wanna god hump a dead moose? You go hump a dead moose!

Aslong as you don't start trying to force your beleifs onto me when I'm clearly not interested then I'm not fussed.

 

[Mojo]

TBH, every man/woman to their own I say.

You wanna beleive in god? You beleive in god!
You wanna god hump a dead moose? You go hump a dead moose!

Aslong as you don't start trying to force your beleifs onto me when I'm clearly not interested then I'm not fussed.

I think most people here would agree, the only issue i have is that if you wish to hump a dead moose, move to Canada and not the UK

 

[yaruar]

How about female circumcision which is practiced at a young age in many parts of the world, but is I believe illegal here.

Female genital mutilation is different from female circumcision.

Both are legal here if consented to by an adult who wants it on themselves (personally i'm against genital cutting of males or femals when they have no choice, but that's just me) female circumcision is very popular among certain circles (essentially it's removal of excess skin on the clit hood, can also be used as a term for the trimming of the labia.)

 

[yaruar]

in one day someone has managed to turn this thread from an interesting discussion in to a school yard bickering contest
well done you

Someone should have called Goodwin's a while ago, i nearly did but it was still interesting at that point.

 

[yaruar]

True, but then I'd like you to find where the Jewish religion says to kill people in your car. The Koran does say that Muslims should make war on the unbeliever, it does say that a husband may beat his wife if she is disobedient. I find these elements distasteful, you might not. Muslims who do this are not misinterpreting the religion. Yes many Muslims do not go around killing their neighbour who is not a Muslim, yes many Muslims don't beat their wife. However, if they chose to they have the Koran to justify their actions.

The bible advocates child sacrifice amongst other things, all religious texts are products of their times.

 

[yaruar]

the koran is the part that has been writen down or dictated (dont know which) by Mohammed, this is the koran. Interpretations are made from this, but the koran is still the important part of it. The koran can not be changed, now do you actually know the Koran preaches the Jihad or is it the interpreter that is doing this?

note: with jihad i mean the war on the non believers. The koran probably does mention the Jihad, but it might mean it as in preaching the believe to other people not killing them untill everyone believes.

Jihad actually has two meanings, the one usually associated to it by the west, a holy war against infidels and the second, more important meaning which is an internal struggle with ones own faith.

 

[NeonBlue]

and neonblue that has very little to do with the Islam and more to do with different races and bad integration. I dont think the Koran says you can not meet with non believers, but it will be parents/father who dont want their kids to hear or see other ways of living most likely. Yes that is bad, but it isnt the same thing as that the Islam is bad.

Your probably right, but i believe that Islam creeps in somewhere...how i dont know exactly but if other communites can intergrate with others regardless of colour,regilion etc....and the Muslims wont, this leads me to believe its something more than their community Elders saying " You cant speak to that person" (simplified) there has to be a bigger reason.

I had written a long post about a restaurant owner i knew in Bradford for 13yrs, use to go there every week after a night out for a curry...but i didnt want to bore you all,

But the long and the short of it is, he was a great bloke orignally from Pakistan who came over to this country made a life for himself and his family in the 60's and was very successful.

But soon as any other Muslim entered the restaurant he would withdraw from "friendship mode" and go into "taking ur order mode"...i asked him about this and simple answer was his community would look down on him very very hard if they thought he was ever friends with a "westerner"

He himself was ashamed to admit this, being 50+yrs old but he said at the end of the day...i wont ever come to ur house, i wont ever meet ur family..you wont meet mine, simply because it isnt allowed

Now surely this type of thing has something more to do with religion than just race,colour?

 

[nath]

No, it has to do with idiots in a position of power over the community CLAIMING it has something to do with religion.

 

[Morchaoron]

No, it has to do with idiots in a position of power over the community CLAIMING it has something to do with religion.

relegion was created out of fear for the unknown, relegion gives you a sort of 'grip' on your future, you will no longer have to fear the unknown because you know what the future holds...

others use this as a power, as a form of controlling over peoples lives, like what happend in the dark ages for example, and there are those nowdays that still hold power over others, and they are in a very strong position because defying them would mean defying the relegion you follow...

 

[NeonBlue]

No, it has to do with idiots in a position of power over the community CLAIMING it has something to do with religion.

so i presume u mean the elders?