Corporal Punishment

[Mey]

Not really, I don't see any well-founded criticism here.

 

[Mey]

Fuck it m8, It started out as an opinion then it started to get personal.

Where did it get personal? I only told you to stfu because you are wrong and that you were arguing like a council estate bnp dolelite.

I think you have had one too many mate.

 

[Ned]

I may indeed be drunk..but it doesn't mean I am wrong.

I have very strong opinions, based on what I have both seen, read, AND experienced of the current judicial system. And I believe it to be wrong and in need of improvement.

And by the very fact that you are telling me to stfu and calling me a Dolite is evidence that you indeed do not have what it takes to be a modern policeman.

And where does BNP come into it?
Are you inferring that I am racist as well?
I have never mentioned colour..

 

[Ned]

https://forums.freddyshouse.com/off-topic21/234305-cowards.html

 

[Mey]

I'm really not going to argue with you regarding my career or personal life, you not qualifed to comment on either.

You may have strong opinions about the subject but your strong opinions are not backed up by fact. Corporal punishment will not solve the problems of the justice system, if anything it would increase them.

 

[Ned]

I have backed up EVERYTHING i have argued with fact..You have chosen to remain in your tower and shown me how much of an arsehole you can be because I do not conform to your opinions.
I stand by my opinions and I cannot believe how you could still say a flogging is less expensive than incarceration.
This may have been an interesting discussion but sadly you will continue to ignore my proof that Jail IS NOT WORKING!

 

[Mey]

Nobody has said jail is working, infact I suggested in its current form it was failing to rehabilitate, however, Corporal Punishment is not the way to solve the ills of the justice system, never was and never will be.

I also contest the statement that you have "proved" that prison is not working, because you didn't.

Flogging would cost alot of money (there is no figure so I can't compare it), it would not simply be a case of trial / guilty / flogging, there'd be all manner of legal appeals and minefields to circumvent before it was completed.

You haven't argued with fact by the way.

 

[Ned]

Nobody has said jail is working, infact I suggested in its current form it was failing to rehabilitate, however, Corporal Punishment is not the way to solve the ills of the justice system, never was and never will be.

I also contest the statement that you have "proved" that prison is not working, because you didn't.

Flogging would cost alot of money (there is no figure so I can't compare it), it would not simply be a case of trial / guilty / flogging, there'd be all manner of legal appeals and minefields to circumvent before it was completed.

You haven't argued with fact by the way.

Prison isn't working | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

BBC NEWS | Politics | 'Prison isn't working', says Tory



Prison is not working ? so let's be brave and adopt alternatives - Scotsman.com Heritage & Culture

Our prison system is not working, as these suicides demonstrate all too clearly - Leading Articles, Opinion - The Independent

Leading Article: Our prison system is not working, as these suicides | Independent, The (London) | Find Articles at BNET

Cardiff Anarchist Black Cross: Prisoner Support: Prison isn’t working, but more Welsh prisons being built

http://www.howardleague.org/index.php?id=fact2

Hmm, yep ur right..The prison system is working fine....But I offer no proof mind you.. only these first few pages..

You need any more fact that the judicial system does not work?

 

[Mey]

lol, throwing random website links at me isn't the same as proving something.

Again, did I say the Prison system was working? I said Corporal Punishment was not the cure for the ills of the justice system.

 

[Bugz]

Epic thread.

 

[Bugz]

Flogging would cost alot of money (there is no figure so I can't compare it), it would not simply be a case of trial / guilty / flogging, there'd be all manner of legal appeals and minefields to circumvent before it was completed.

Welcome to the biggest moral decision in this debate.

Should we introduce a whole bunch of legislative appeals & minefields simply because a very small minority will get found guilty and put to prison when in fact they are innocent?

Perhaps.

Take that as a somewhat unrelated example. When some newly created drugs in America caused a small number of mutated births, the government set up a legislative company known as the FDA - Foods & Drug Administration, which set about testing, testing and testing some more every new type of drug developed - a minefield of criteria in it's own right. What happened? The time for drugs to develop and enter the market increased from 25 months to 8 years. Many more people died/were effected as a result of this than the incident which caused it to come into commission.

I'm very sketchy about whether we should get rid of the minefields, make things 10x easier, stricter and safer (for the public) and condemn a couple to prison for crimes they did not commit, or to carry on with the existing system. For one, the appeal of a better overall service is enticing but you don't appreciate just how much an untrue allegation can do to a family.

 

[Hawkwind]

I believe Corporal punishement is right for certain crimes. Multiple premeditated murder, Murder/molestation of children and faking a dive in the penalty area. OK maybe not the last one.

Not a popular opinion I know but I just cannot see the point of keeping people like Fred and Rosemary West alive and incarserated for the rest of their lives. Yes, I know he hanged himself but he would be in prison for life. What that pair did was undefendable, torturing, raping and murdering 21 people between them. What would be the point of feeding them and locking them up until they die. We wouldn't do it to an animal believing it would be human to give the an injection yet have different standards for humans.

 

[Access Denied]

Ned you really did start a war. I will ask Mey one thing. have you ever asked all those victims you know, deep down inside at the very bottom of their being what they want to happen to the people who did those things to them? The fact is few criminals actually get rehabilitated in prison. Mostly they just get smarter, they get taught by other inmates how to be better at crime. I'm not saying this to cause trouble and while it wasn't a physical crime against me, my car was stolen 6 months ago and while the car means not much to me, I had some valuable stuff in there. Also the very fact that omeone took MY car felt like a violation and this is my honest feeling. if they ever catch the person who did it I want them to be dragged behind an 18 wheeler doing top whack.

Corpral punishment isn't just about a show of strength, it's also about showing the victim that justice is being done. A judge sends someone to prison, all well and good, they're off the streets for a while but the victim gets little satisfaction from that.

 

[Ned]

Okay Mey,

Since you have discussed this so much with all of these people you know who are in the judicial system, what have you come up with that you believe will work?

And they are not random websites, they explain why the current judicial system is not working..

I bet you didn't even read them.

I have asked friends and family who have been victims of crime what they would like to see happen to the criminals..They wanted them strung up by the balls!!..or worse.

I will give you this example..

Last year I caught 2 guys who were breaking into my neighbours' cars.. I went outside and caught one of them..The other fled..
It took nearly a year for this to come to court, and had to take a day off work so I could offer my evidence..

You know what the guy got?

A caution..No fine..Nothing.

What does this tell you? It cost ME more than the criminal in lost pay and travel expenses!

 

[Mey]

I agree whole heartedly the major failing of the CJS in the uk is the fact that it requires victims to take uncompensated costs, it simply provides nothing for them. Victims stand to gain very little from a conviction, save for maybe a sense of duty.

Prisons do not work, infact the prison system is constantly shooting itself in the foot. Each time a prison manages to reduce its recividism rates the other prison govners gang bang them because it makes them look bad. Interesting enough, however, people who are given prison sentences for first offences are less likely to reoffend in comparison to those who have been given other punishments. I think at the highest point reoffending was reduced by 90% (for those over 21).

I dont agree with harsh punishments because I feel that they simply do not achieve any objective aim other than to statisfy some lesser sense of revenge.

"It has been observed that, as a rule ruhless punishment, far from mollifying mens ways, corrupt them and stir them to violence." Giorgio Del Vecciho, "The struggle against crime" (Philosophy of Punishment.)


If I knew what the cure for the CJS was i'd be very rich right now as I would of written to the Home Security and told him, then claimed intellectual rights and got a big fat pay out each year, unfortunately I have yet to discover one that is workable, cost effective and morale unquestionable.

 

[Ned]

I agree whole heartedly the major failing of the CJS in the uk is the fact that it requires victims to take uncompensated costs, it simply provides nothing for them. Victims stand to gain very little from a conviction, save for maybe a sense of duty.

Prisons do not work, infact the prison system is constantly shooting itself in the foot. Each time a prison manages to reduce its recividism rates the other prison govners gang bang them because it makes them look bad. Interesting enough, however, people who are given prison sentences for first offences are less likely to reoffend in comparison to those who have been given other punishments. I think at the highest point reoffending was reduced by 90% (for those over 21).

I dont agree with harsh punishments because I feel that they simply do not achieve any objective aim other than to statisfy some lesser sense of revenge.

"It has been observed that, as a rule ruhless punishment, far from mollifying mens ways, corrupt them and stir them to violence." Giorgio Del Vecciho, "The struggle against crime" (Philosophy of Punishment.)


If I knew what the cure for the CJS was i'd be very rich right now as I would of written to the Home Security and told him, then claimed intellectual rights and got a big fat pay out each year, unfortunately I have yet to discover one that is workable, cost effective and morale unquestionable.

Yes, but is by the very fact that they are being locked up not just another type of 'revenge'.

Flogging is just a VASTLY cheaper alternative.

I hate how soft the government and people's attitudes have become regarding crime and punishment.
How many more millions must we spend on these offenders just to realise that it simply does not work!

Look at the state of Britain's economy today fgs..

Yes you may discuss it a lot but the fact is you offer no solution. You just try to discredit people who offer a viable solution.
And please don't argue a persons' human rights; because these people who are quite prepared to murder, rape, steal from etc another human being deserve none.

You mentioned in an earlier thread that friends of yours suffered at the hands of people like this..What would YOU like to see happen to them?

I tell you right now what I would like to see.

An eye for an eye m8..

 

[tierk]

Ned you are the man. 100% agree with you and belive firmly that they should have public flogging amongest a host of other ways to fuck over a criminals life.

Far to much concern is shown for the people that choose to lead a life of crime and far too little concern is shown for the victims of crime.

Also i think a few people posting on this thread need to go and find out the difference between capital and corporal punishment. I personal am a firm believer in bringing back both of them.

 

[Mey]

Your not offering a viable solution though, if it was as easy as flogging someone do you not think we would of done it ages ago. It simply doesn't work.

What you or I would like to see happen to a person isn't objective. The reason we have a legal system with set tariffs and punishments is because everyone difers, if you allowed the victim too chose the punishment the system would collapse.

 

[Ned]

Your not offering a viable solution though, if it was as easy as flogging someone do you not think we would of done it ages ago. It simply doesn't work.

What you or I would like to see happen to a person isn't objective. The reason we have a legal system with set tariffs and punishments is because everyone difers, if you allowed the victim too chose the punishment the system would collapse.

We did it ages ago.. we put them in stocks and threw rotten fruit at them.

Of course it is a viable solution..

How do you know it doesn't work if you have never seen it?

I know you are arguing your point because you maybe still feel that you must stand for the humanitarian corner, but what happens to an offender IS objective and the reason for this post.

And if the victim chose the punishment, there would be no system as you know it..The victim would immediately choose the first punishment that came to mind..Which would often be the correct punishment.
Often the first thing that comes to mind is the correct and most honest opinion.

 

[Huntingtons]

oh yeah. the people back then got incercerated just to show the public that the police was doing its job... WAY TO GO! and yes, they got hung.

Im with you may. I dont think the current systems work (in most countries), but physical punishment for the public to feast on wont help one bit. You think criminals are afraid of it?
Instead of working on the punishment, try working to avoid people turning into criminals. that means you need to find the proper education in the problematic area, teaching people a very elemental respect for other human beings. And to me that comes in kindergarden (personally i believe that a person is more or less shaped in the first 5 years). There was a test done in the 60's where kids from different daycares in US were given 2 choices regarding marshmellows.
1. Eat the marshmellow now.
or
2. Wait 15 minutes till the professor comes back and get 2 marshmellows.

when the kids turned 18 the professor checked up on them again. those who took choice no. 2 were more social competent, better career options, more friends and more cofident that the option no. 1 takers.

 

[soze]

I know a few people up in Scotland who got themselves sent to prison on purpose. Living in a council flat on dole did not get you 3 meals a day, electric and heating always on ect ect. I think prision is far too soft and would like to see work camps make these fuckers work 8 hours a day for thier warm meal and bed.

In the UK, reviews prompted by the Criminal Cases Review Commission have resulted in one pardon and three exonerations with compensation paid for people executed between 1950 and 1953, when the execution rate in England and Wales averaged 17 per year.

4 out of 51ish wrong thats why we can't kill or even flog criminals. Maybe it should be part of a Judges arsenal so if a case really is a no brainer evidence all points to one person or they confess he can order execution.

 

[Zede]

Growing up in England in the 70s, you would be canned during morning assembly if your crime was fitting. I know it put the fear of god in 99% of my classmates.

People put to much credence in humanity. In relative terms we are just out of the trees. With regard to rapists, molesters, murderers treat them. like the animals they are. Personally I would be all for public scrotum electrocution, followed by cutting open the sack and having hungry pigs eat the balls in front of their eyes. Then leave them to rot in a stinking cell for 15 years.

I laughed out loud at the repeated attempts of Myra Hindley to get out of jail. The time when she really really really wants to get out, supported by all the right on do-gooders is exactly the time when she should be locked up all day, and hopefully tortured & reminded what she did. Well that kinda happened, but without the torture, but with more luxuries than the average O.A.P.

 

[tierk]

oh yeah. the people back then got incercerated just to show the public that the police was doing its job... WAY TO GO! and yes, they got hung..

Nothing wrong with hanging esp for Rapists, Murderers and Pedo's.

You think criminals are afraid of it?..

Errr yes i think that the majority of people would be afraid of getting the skin flogged off their backs for criminal behaviour.

Instead of working on the punishment, try working to avoid people turning into criminals.....

Been trying that shit since the 60's and it clearly doesn't working. I am not a big fan of prison myself as it is just a university of crime - they go in as a shoplifter and come out as something far worse.

They should force people that commit crimes to walk in public for a set period of time with dirty big sign clearly showing what crime they have committed and warning people to be aware of them. Fuck civil liberties for them as they clearly dont have any concern for their victims civil liberties.

The other ideas i have heard will make people laugh but it would be a awesome way to punish them. Dip the fuckers in a huge vat of paint that will wear off after a set period.

Different colours for different crimes - shoplifting, burglary etc. If that fails and they repeat offend off with their left hand, then there right hand and then finally hang the fucker.

Violent criminals should be dished a serious dose of pain - public flooging or some such punishment. Rapists and pedo's should have their nuts cut off and repeated offending should be punished by death.

 

[Golena]

I always laugh when people are complaining about the problem with violent crimes in this country and how it isn't being dealt with properly.

And then say things like this!!!!

Haha, you're right you would be much more polite about it, cos I'd knock you on your arse..

All credibility lost in one sentance (well the tiny amount you had left anyway).


Personally I don't think the current system is working even slightly tho. The current wave of human rights means that the people upholding the law actually have far less power than those who want to break it, and until that changes we're heading down a rather doomed road.
The problem ultimately starts with the current trend of parents unable to control their kids. But when trying to control your kid in a sensible fashion and teach them what they did was wrong gets you locked up for child abuse then what's the point.

 

[Thorwyn]

Errr yes i think that the majority of people would be afraid of getting the skin flogged off their backs for criminal behaviour.

So... then please explain the crime rates of countries like the US or Russia.

Thing is, no punishment will ever stop the criminals from committing crime, simply because they always think they´ll get away without being caught.

 

[Azurus]

Flogging will most likely leave people feeling alienated and rejected by society thus pushing them further down a path of criminality and anti-social behaviour.

 

[Helme]

I don't really think physical punishment would deter crime, I mean whats that saying? "Nobody commits a crime unless they think they can get away with it". What punishment they would get for their actions never enter their minds. Unless they have tatoo'd themself with prison schematics & plan to escape prison with their convicted brother.

 

[tierk]

So... then please explain the crime rates of countries like the US or Russia......

Try cutting off a few hands and have a few peoples skin taken off their backs and lets see what happens to the crime rate. Its not just a question of executing people though but rather a complete change in the way that we deal with crime and criminals.

The USA currently has a back log for executions a mile long and the system of justice is clearly not working with people staying on death row for 100 years and then only to find out that they are not guilty of the crime in the first place.

You have to have a justice system that is fair for everyone and not just for the smarmey c**t that can afford a good lawyer. You also need to have a system of punishment that affords some measure of relief for the victims of the crime and they should have a major input into the punishment set - esp for serious offences.

Some people say that there is something wrong with this as the victim cannot be objective but who wants to be objective when they have been violently assaulted, robbed, raped etc.

It also needs to be made clear that in society that has an almost universal hatred of police it should be pretty obvious that there is a problem not just with the courts but also with the people enforcing the law. This is another major issue that needs to be addressed. You cannot have a group of people who are supposed to enforce the law being one of the worst offenders in the eyes of the law.

Quite clearly prison also isnt working and if anything makes the persons stay at the prison like a university education in crime. There must be alternatives to prison, esp for minor offences for example non-payment of fines and such petty things. Get em to go around cleaning: public toilets, parks whatever but ffs dont stick them into prison with the real criminals.

Thing is, no punishment will ever stop the criminals from committing crime, simply because they always think they´ll get away without being caught.

That is the crux of the problem. Its the thought that they will get away with it combined with the a completly retarded system of courts and punishment.

A convicted rapists gets out of prison after a few months only to offend again and then when they end up in court again for the same crime it cannot be mentioned that the fucker is a proven convicted rapist at his next hearing as it would be considered a attack on his right to a fair trial. Its laughable.

Softly softly just doesnt work and that seems pretty clear to me at least.

The best idea i have ever seen for prisoners to be quite frank is to chuck all of the evil fuckers on a island in the middle of the pacific and leave em to it. Let them rob, rape, murder each other to their hearts content.

 

[Thorwyn]

Try cutting off a few hands and have a few peoples skin taken off their backs and lets see what happens to the crime rate. Its not just a question of executing people though but rather a complete change in the way that we deal with crime and criminals.

This barbaric kind of "dealing with crime" didn´t stop criminals in the middle ages and it won´t stop criminals today. If you really think that cutting off hands is an answer, then you´re part of the problem, not part of the solution.

You have to have a justice system that is fair for everyone and not just for the smarmey c**t that can afford a good lawyer.

That´s completely correct, but it doesn´t touch the subject.

You also need to have a system of punishment that affords some measure of relief for the victims of the crime and they should have a major input into the punishment set - esp for serious offences.

NO!
It´s not the job of the legal system to satisfy individual feelings of relief or revenge. That´s not the idea behind (legal) punishments.

Some people say that there is something wrong with this as the victim cannot be objective but who wants to be objective when they have been violently assaulted, robbed, raped etc.

You´re contradicting yourself!
First you want a legal system that´s fair to everyone, then you say "ah, sod objectivity, it´s just a f*cking criminal"?

That is the crux of the problem. Its the thought that they will get away with it combined with the a completly retarded system of courts and punishment.

If you take a look at the history of the world, you´ll see that it has nothing to do with this "combination". Legal punishments - regardless how severe they are - will never stop crime. Never ever.
Take any country in the world, compare the crimerate in relation to the legal system... you won´t find anything that supports your theory.

I`ll stop replying to your post here, since it seems utterly futile to me. Let´s just hope that - if your ideas become true some sunny day - you´ll never get in trouble with the law... innocently or not.

 

[- English -]

dunno if link has been posted or what as i cba to read all of thread but this is a brilliant watch if you havent seen it

BBC iPlayer - Louis Theroux: Behind Bars

basically its a documentary inside san quentin prison