Corporal Punishment

[Ned]

Also "at least where denmark is concerned" I'd like to see a full re evaluation and overhaul of the sentencing system, wich imo is waaaay! outdated.

These benchmarks where set back in the early 20'th century where economical crime was penalized alot harder than physical crime. but times hacve changed and I at least find it apualing that someone gets a few mounths for rape, or beating someone to a vegi state, but go steal 10.000 from a persons account and you'll end up spending 5-10 years.

Well, I think most governments are harsher on crimes that effect them financially. i.e tax evasion, non payment of fines etc. At least our UK government. This type of crime affects their income directly, which is why I think they are so harsh on it.

They were quite willing to imprison OAP's for non-payment of council tax. Folks who have never committed any previous offences, but just stood up for against a tax they simply could not afford to pay.

 

[tierk]

huh ?
what the ! are you on drugs ?

this thread was origionally about coperol punishment, my coment refers to ctuch's responce at that time wich as far I can gather, seems to refer to capitol punishment.

now what the hell are you on about ?

LoL read what i am saying properly, i was refering to Ctuchik inability to differentiate between the two.

 

[Olgaline]

aah! oops
/blush

still funny how one mis conception can lead a discussion in a completely different direction,
that was the the origional point of my comment anyway

 

[Mey]

Well, I think most governments are harsher on crimes that effect them financially. i.e tax evasion, non payment of fines etc. At least our UK government. This type of crime affects their income directly, which is why I think they are so harsh on it.

They were quite willing to imprison OAP's for non-payment of council tax. Folks who have never committed any previous offences, but just stood up for against a tax they simply could not afford to pay.

LOL! Harsh on Corporate / White collar crime?! Think again Mr. Ted. these are the least representated crimes in any criminal justice system.

 

[Ned]

LOL! Harsh on Corporate / White collar crime?! Think again Mr. Ted. these are the least representated crimes in any criminal justice system.

LOL really?

You may commit an anti-social crime and be taken to court without imprisonment up to 70 + offences..But if you don't pay a fine, you will be banged up faster than you can say 'Mey is a twat'.

Be sure they will get their money one way or the other.. If they can't take it from you, they will put your ass in jail.

http://www.cjsonline.gov.uk/the_cjs/whats_new/news-3059.html

Non-payment of fineRule 3(1) If a fine is not paid in accordance with the order imposing it, the court officer shall forthwith report the matter to the judge.
(2) Where by an order imposing a fine, the amount of the fine is directed to be paid by instalments and default is made in the payment of any instalment, the same proceedings may be taken as if default had been made in payment of the whole of the fine.
(3) If the judge makes an order for payment of a fine to be enforced by warrant of execution, the order shall be treated as an application made to the district judge for the issue of the warrant at the time when the order was received by him.

The government will get their cash, one way or the other.

And who is Mr Ted? Have you not read the name of the person with whom you are 'discussing' this topic?

 

[Ned]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fed up of the way this fucking country works, random muggings, assaults, theft's..

Fuck the whole "a society is judged on the treatment of it's criminals." I don't give a flying, lock em' up, and lets never see them again!

(yes im pissed off, takes the piss when you can't even walk up your own road without getting attacked and "jacked" [as the "cool" kids like to call it])

For once mind, the police have impressed me, almost immediate response, statements taken within the hour etc.. (though it would take the mickey if they didn't seeing as they only "live" down the road!)

Remember this, Mey?
Lol you two faced cnut

 

[Mey]

I must admit I have had a few to drink and meant to type Mr. Ned. But believe me Corporate and white collar crime are very much unrepresentated in the CJS. Companies get away with fines of a few million when the crime they have comitted netted them a few billion. I'd post loads of examples but I can't be bothered routing through my Professional nad organised crime folder. Maybe in the morning.

Good night

 

[Mey]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fed up of the way this fucking country works, random muggings, assaults, theft's..

Fuck the whole "a society is judged on the treatment of it's criminals." I don't give a flying, lock em' up, and lets never see them again!

(yes im pissed off, takes the piss when you can't even walk up your own road without getting attacked and "jacked" [as the "cool" kids like to call it])

For once mind, the police have impressed me, almost immediate response, statements taken within the hour etc.. (though it would take the mickey if they didn't seeing as they only "live" down the road!)

Remember this, Mey?
Lol you two faced cnut

Baring in mind mate I posted that what, 1-2 hours after I had just been mugged, after a night out so more than likely drunk. Even though I said I didn't care how they were treated I still didn't advocate corporal punishment.

(Ironically if I was you, I'd have to threaten to knock you out now, as you just called me a ****..)

 

[Mey]

The CJA section you posted also relates to the imposing of a fine re: any level of crime.

 

[Ned]

Baring in mind mate I posted that what, 1-2 hours after I had just been mugged, after a night out so more than likely drunk. Even though I said I didn't care how they were treated I still didn't advocate corporal punishment.

(Ironically if I was you, I'd have to threaten to knock you out now, as you just called me a ****..)

So, do you change your mind regularly? or do just play devils advocate.

Either way, you just contradicted what you said..

And as I SAID, the first reaction is often the most honest.

And I still defended myself when I had a drink!
Do your opinions change when you are drunk?

And you said lock em up and never see them again?
You think you are the only one to think that?

Like I said in a previous post..If we don't change the judicial system, it's gonna bite you!

LOL, you already got bit!! :lol:

 

[Ned]

I'm gonna look for more contradictions in your posts now m8.

LOL

 

[Mey]

Um' so my first gut reaction is the best way to deal with crime? I don't think so.

My opinions changes depanding on my mood, current situation and level of experince at the time of the giving of said opinon (I think you'll find thats pretty common, anyone whos opinon stays the same no matter what is not worth debating with)

I have learnt alot more about penal policy and penology since being mugged a year and abit ago so naturally as a consequence my attitude towards how we should punish such has changed.

You didn't really defend yourself last time you just insulted everyone.

I must admit I do love this attempted character assasination! I can't wait for the next really old piece you bring out

 

[nath]

I have to say Ned, that's a fucking ridiculous attitude. Heightened emotions clearly warp peoples opinions and make them say things they don't necessarily mean. You using this as ammunition against someones argument is pretty fucking stupid.

 

[Ned]

Um' so my first gut reaction is the best way to deal with crime? I don't think so.

My opinions changes depanding on my mood, current situation and level of experince at the time of the giving of said opinon (I think you'll find thats pretty common, anyone whos opinon stays the same no matter what is not worth debating with)

I have learnt alot more about penal policy and penology since being mugged a year and abit ago so naturally as a consequence my attitude towards how we should punish such has changed.

You didn't really defend yourself last time you just insulted everyone.

I must admit I do love this attempted character assasination! I can't wait for the next really old piece you bring out

Insulted everyone?
Where?
How?

I was talking about you being a two faced dick.
Wanting people locked up for life one minute, but trying to argue against it the next.
Make up your fucking mind..And lol, plz don't tell me I offended the whole community cos I caught you out.

I would have been happy to continue this discussion, even though you called me to stfu initially, but now I know you are a hypocrite, I don't really care for discussing this subject with you, as I know you are a knob.

Make up your mind one way or the other, then come back and discuss what you would REALLY LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN TO CRIMINALS.

/waiting

 

[Mey]

What I'd like to happen to criminals and what should happen to criminals is two different things, haven't we been over this before?

 

[Ned]

I have to say Ned, that's a fucking ridiculous attitude. Heightened emotions clearly warp peoples opinions and make them say things they don't necessarily mean. You using this as ammunition against someones argument is pretty fucking stupid.

Hmm, and my opinions just after being a victim of crime doesn't matter?

If this arse is planning to be a policeman, then he should get a grip of his/her own emotions.

If he did not mean to say it, then he should have said so..

As for you, if you think that a person should not be in a state of high emotion before he posts, then tell HIM that.

If YOU got raped, would you have to think about what sentence you gave to the offender?

If you got burgled, would you wait until you calmed down before you called the police?
Of course not! Your initial instinct would be the most powerful and most correct..

You fucking nugget.

*edited for politeness

 

[Ned]

What I'd like to happen to criminals and what should happen to criminals is two different things, haven't we been over this before?

Yes we have, and you performed not only a U turn, but a handbrake turn in front of your mates.

 

[Mey]

Ned you are starting to sound like a fool again, the person who is the victimin of crime doesn't decide the punishment so what they think the punishment should be is irrelevant.

I'm fully in control of my emotions, the post you quoted was hardly "extreme" its a fairly common response to crime.

 

[Mey]

Yes we have, and you performed not only a U turn, but a handbrake turn in front of your mates.

Sense? Make not?

 

[Olgaline]

I'd tread carefully ned,
There really is a big differrence between a constructed representative opinion and an initial emotional response be it anger, dispaere, ect..

 

[Ned]

Ned you are starting to sound like a fool again, the person who is the victimin of crime doesn't decide the punishment so what they think the punishment should be is irrelevant.

I'm fully in control of my emotions, the post you quoted was hardly "extreme" its a fairly common response to crime.

LOl, now that you are back in control of your emotions.

Would you like to change your mind again?
Or should I wait 5 mins?

 

[Mey]

Dude are you posting from a psych ward or something? You seriously have some problems that I'm clearly not qualified to discuss.

 

[Ned]

I'd tread carefully ned,
There really is a big differrence between a constructed representative opinion and an initial emotional response be it anger, dispaere, ect..

OK, this person performs a full u-turn on his opinion..And I should tread carefully.. I think not.

Yes, he is annoying me now, because he is defending an opinion which he previously had different views on.

I am often lead by my emotions, but at least I do not let them change my opinions every 5 mins.

 

[Ned]

Dude are you posting from a psych ward or something? You seriously have some problems that I'm clearly not qualified to discuss.

Lol, you worm.

Do you deny the fact that you changed your opinion?

 

[Mey]

Actually Ned if we look at the post I made a year ago an hour after I had been mugged I said, lock em up i don't care anymore. I'm still advocating the locking up of people (albeit in a differnet manner to what we currently have) and arguing against corporal and capital punishment.

I can't really see this U-turn you are talking about?

 

[Mey]

I feel strongly about this topic, and of course my emotions will affect my opinion.

OMGZ YOU TWO FACED LIAR!!! LOLOZLOLZOLZ

(Cf: irony)

 

[Ned]

I imagine a similar case would be the same for corporal punishment with the inveitable legal cases for appeals and so on. I also assume that you would be in favour of the death penalty, so I'll give you this quote to think on.

"Where disablement+ enters as an element into penal theories*, it occupies, as a rule, a subordinate place and is looked upon as an object subsidary to some other end which is regarded as paramount" Heinrich Oppenheimer, the rationale of punishment (London University Press, 1913)

+meaning punishments which have permenacy, i.e pyschosurgery, capitial punishment etc..
*meaning theories regarding punishment.

The fact that you want to use it (Corporal punishment) as a deterence destroys the proper functioning of a judicial process, if detterence is the end it is unimportant whether an individual has committed a crime because the punishment is there purely to re-educate and sway those who may have commite such crimes from a "similar" path. In this sense you aren't punishing the crime because it is bad, you are punishing it to stop people from acting in a similar way. Thats not justice, thats madness.

Ironically it costs more to sentence someone to the death penalty than it does to keep them in prison for life.

It's obvious that you are unable to set aside strong emotions to argue in a coherent manner, quite frankly I do not want to argue with someone who has no clue about the Prison service or the law in the UK.

You may have strong opinions about the subject but your strong opinions are not backed up by fact. Corporal punishment will not solve the problems of the justice system, if anything it would increase them.

Nobody has said jail is working, infact I suggested in its current form it was failing to rehabilitate, however, Corporal Punishment is not the way to solve the ills of the justice system, never was and never will be. :lol:

I agree whole heartedly the major failing of the CJS in the uk is the fact that it requires victims to take uncompensated costs, it simply provides nothing for them. Victims stand to gain very little from a conviction, save for maybe a sense of duty.

Prisons do not work, infact the prison system is constantly shooting itself in the foot. Each time a prison manages to reduce its recividism rates the other prison govners gang bang them because it makes them look bad. Interesting enough, however, people who are given prison sentences for first offences are less likely to reoffend in comparison to those who have been given other punishments. I think at the highest point reoffending was reduced by 90% (for those over 21).

I dont agree with harsh punishments because I feel that they simply do not achieve any objective aim other than to statisfy some lesser sense of revenge.

"It has been observed that, as a rule ruhless punishment, far from mollifying mens ways, corrupt them and stir them to violence." Giorgio Del Vecciho, "The struggle against crime" (Philosophy of Punishment.)


If I knew what the cure for the CJS was i'd be very rich right now as I would of written to the Home Security and told him, then claimed intellectual rights and got a big fat pay out each year, unfortunately I have yet to discover one that is workable, cost effective and morale unquestionable.
:lol:

Well, what the fuck DO you mean then?

You contradicted everything YOU JUST SAID!! :lol:

 

[Ned]

OMGZ YOU TWO FACED LIAR!!! LOLOZLOLZOLZ

(Cf: irony)

Well, at least my opinions don't change when I'm emotional/drunk lol

 

[CorNokZ]

Who the fuck is Ned?

 

[Mey]

Can you explain your point, I can't really see it myself.

(not you Cornokz, I was thinking the same. Is he some drunk scot?)