Corporal Punishment

[tierk]

This barbaric kind of "dealing with crime" didn´t stop criminals in the middle ages and it won´t stop criminals today. If you really think that cutting off hands is an answer, then you´re part of the problem, not part of the solution........

Wrong. Works a treat this part of the world and please lets not let this degenerate in to a debate about the rights and wrongs of Islam. Also your comment that it didnt work in the Middle Ages is based on what exactly as i am not aware of any accurate figures for crime rates etc from this period.

I am sure it not will stop all crimebut i am pretty sure that it will stop a lot more then the current system, which currently works ooooooh so well.

That´s completely correct, but it doesn´t touch the subject.........

Its is just another part of far larger problem and it is off course relevant to any discussion that involves corporal or capital punishment.

NO! It´s not the job of the legal system to satisfy individual feelings of relief or revenge. That´s not the idea behind (legal) punishments...

Maybe this is exactly the problem with the legal system as it stands. I couldnt give a shit what the reason for legal punishments are, i could careless what the do-gooders want to say about it being barbaric to deal with criminals in such a harsh way. I think that a system that gives no succour to the victims of crime, once they have the culprit is a complete waste of time and any such system needs to be changed /overhauled.

You´re contradicting yourself! First you want a legal system that´s fair to everyone, then you say "ah, sod objectivity, it´s just a f*cking criminal"?

There is no contradiction in what i am saying at all. When i say a legal system that is equal for all i dont mean that the criminal has rights - he forfeited his rights when he decided he wanted to act in a manner that is accepted by society at large as illegal.

If you take a look at the history of the world, you´ll see that it has nothing to do with this "combination". Legal punishments - regardless how severe they are - will never stop crime. Never ever.....

I dont think any system will ever completely stop crime. However, to say that in the history of the whole world combination has never wporked is completely wrong. We in the Muslim part of the world seem to have solved this severe problem of criminality in exactly the way that you claim never ever worked in the whole history of the world.

Take any country in the world, compare the crimerate in relation to the legal system... you won´t find anything that supports your theory....

Wrong again.

An analysis was done using INTERPOL data for Qatar. For purpose of comparison, data were drawn for the seven offenses used to compute the United States FBI's index of crime. Index offenses include murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny, and motor vehicle theft. The combined total of these offenses constitutes the Index used for trend calculation purposes.

Qatar will be compared with Japan (country with a low crime rate) and USA (country with a high crime rate).

According to the INTERPOL data:

1. For murder, the rate in 1999 was 2.11 per 100,000 population for Qatar, 1.00 for Japan, and 4.55 for USA.

2. For rape, the rate in 1999 was 1.72 for Qatar, compared with 1.47 for Japan and 32.05 for USA.

3. For robbery, the rate in 1999 was 1.34 for Qatar, 3.34 for Japan, and 147.36 for USA.

4. For aggravated assault, the rate in 1999 was 7.09 for Qatar, 15.97 for Japan, and 329.63 for USA.

5. For burglary, the rate in 1999 was 34.10 for Qatar, 206.01 for Japan, and 755.29 for USA.

6. For larceny for 1999 was 136.01 for Qatar, 1267.95 for Japan, and 2502.66 for USA.

7. The rate for motor vehicle theft in 1999 was 11.49 for Qatar, compared with 34.01 for Japan and 412.70 for USA.

8. The rate for all index offenses combined was 193.86 for Qatar, compared with 1529.75 for Japan and 4184.24 for USA. (Note: data were not reported to INTERPOL by the USA for 1999, but were derived from data reported to the United Nations for 1999)

For more details follow this link

Comparative Criminology | Asia - Qatar

If this is not enough information for you please let me know and i will give you more. Just so you know though we dont cut off hands in Qatar.

 

[Mey]

But surely alot of the crime in a Muslim country is controlled/reduced by the strict religious beliefs of those that live in them?

 

[tierk]

But surely alot of the crime in a Muslim country is controlled/reduced by the strict religious beliefs of those that live in them?

Partly and also the fact that you know if you get caught you are going to get a fucking mauling at court when it comes to punishment.

To give you an example, i used to smoke about an ounce of weed every week when i lived in London - i knew that the worst punishment i would get would be a slap on the wrist and confiscation of the goodies, which in the greater scheme of things aint too bad a punishment.

In Qatar

Penalties for possession, use, or trafficking in illegal drugs in Qatar are severe, and convicted offenders can expect long jail sentences and heavy fines.

As a direct result of understand that i will spend a fucking age in prison and then the pleasure of deportation should i survive the prison i no longer smoke drugs.

 

[Ctuchik]

Partly and also the fact that you know if you get caught you are going to get a fucking mauling at court when it comes to punishment.

not to mention that their so calles justice system is utterly fucked up in the first place. even more so then ours.

go have a look at what types of "crimes" that can grant death penalties in those countries and u'l find out why theres so few scentances. ppl can hardly do ANYTHING without getting killed because of it. /edit: you have females getting stoned to death just for taking a lift with a man they arent married to ffs!

we gonna have the same shit here to? i doubt u would like it as thats usually called dictatorship.

you can not in any way compare a democratic country with islam or any other dictatorial country and use those as arguments.

 

[Mey]

I think thats fascinating, forgive me if i'm sticking words into your mouth, I'm just trying to verbalise how I understand what you are saying.

You were smoking weed because there was virtually no punishment in the UK, now don't smoke it because you are affraid of the strict punishment in Qatar?

Is it just me or does that destroy any argument that criminals are any different to normal people?

 

[Ned]

I always laugh when people are complaining about the problem with violent crimes in this country and how it isn't being dealt with properly.

And then say things like this!!!!



All credibility lost in one sentance (well the tiny amount you had left anyway).


Personally I don't think the current system is working even slightly tho. The current wave of human rights means that the people upholding the law actually have far less power than those who want to break it, and until that changes we're heading down a rather doomed road.
The problem ultimately starts with the current trend of parents unable to control their kids. But when trying to control your kid in a sensible fashion and teach them what they did was wrong gets you locked up for child abuse then what's the point.

Well, what would YOU do if someone told you to stfu to your face?

I would consider knocking someone on their ass because they insulted me, different to someone who hit someone for nothing.

And I very much doubt it would go to court anyway..The police would probably tell him to be careful what he says in future.

I speak to people on this/every forum as I would talk to them in person, As I think this should be a good way to conduct forum discussions. I will always be respectful until it starts to get personal.

 

[Helme]

So you are THAT guy who has to get physical for any minor offense. Yeah, not helpin your arguement one bit there Ned.

I'm sorry but, if you are going to suggest harsher punishment for crimes, being the guy who punches someone in the face for disagreeing with you isn't the one who should suggest it, or even bring it forward imho.

That said, while I personally think there could be alot harsher punishment in Sweden(lifetime is 12 years iirc). It seems to be working pretty well, as we are one of the lowest crime countries in the world(not counting net piracy hah).

 

[Ned]

So you are THAT guy who has to get physical for any minor offense. Yeah, not helpin your arguement one bit there Ned.

I'm sorry but, if you are going to suggest harsher punishment for crimes, being the guy who punches someone in the face for disagreeing with you isn't the one who should suggest it, or even bring it forward imho.

That said, while I personally think there could be alot harsher punishment in Sweden(lifetime is 12 years iirc). It seems to be working pretty well, as we are one of the lowest crime countries in the world(not counting net piracy hah).

/Sigh You are deliberately missing the point.

I would not be angry for someone disagreeing with me..Nor hit a person for that..

What I am saying is...now listen..I would hit someone who told me to shut the fuck up to my face..

Can see you see the difference?

 

[Ned]

We all want to see crime reduced, right?

What I am suggesting is what IMO is a reasonable, cost effective solution.

We have become a 'nanny' state, in which criminals are thriving.

Prison means nothing to the majority of criminals. Many are not rehabilitated, nor deterred form re-offending.

The current system is FAILING.

Asbo's? SCHMASBO's

Don't have MOT, insurance or driving licence?..Don't worry about it. You will just receive another ban..even though you can't drive.

Prisons are so full these days that only serious offenders will get locked up.

We need a new system..fast.

If you want to knock my opinion, then please put forward one of your own so the rest of us can critique it.

If you want to continue with the current system, then fine..But one day for sure it's going to bite you in the arse..If it hasn't already.

*edit punctuation

 

[Helme]

What you seem to miss is that the Scandinavian countries are even more nannystate than the UK, and all have lower crime with less harsh punishment, now this might just be a weird oddity but its something to consider before you start going medieval on someones ass.

And I personally can't see anywhere punching someone in the face would be an appropriate response to being told to stfu.

 

[Mey]

/Sigh You are deliberately missing the point.

I would not be angry for someone disagreeing with me..Nor hit a person for that..

What I am saying is...now listen..I would hit someone who told me to shut the fuck up to my face..

Can see you see the difference?

No.

 

[Ned]

What you seem to miss is that the Scandinavian countries are even more nannystate than the UK, and all have lower crime with less harsh punishment, now this might just be a weird oddity but its something to consider before you start going medieval on someones ass.

And I personally can't see anywhere punching someone in the face would be an appropriate response to being told to stfu.

Well, I am honestly happy that the justice system may work over there. Fact is though, it's not working here.

And maybe you can walk away from confrontation, I will not.
If you happen to disagree with someone, do you tell them to stfu?

Try it in your local..then come back here and tell me what happens..Or better still try it in my local..

lol

 

[Ned]

No.

Well, if you can't then you are amazingly naive.

Read my previous post and you try it out..

 

[Helme]

The truth is, people commit crimes because they must. There's very few who does it because they find it fun(this is the type of people in prison in Sweden)

The best way to prevent crime is taking away the reason to do them, in most cases poverty, unemployment, helping the 15 year old kids out etc.

As I said earlier, everybody who commits a crime does it because they think they can get away with it. They never even think about the punishment they'll actually get from doing it if caught, so that makes your idea of punishment as a people scarer kinda pointless.

Now to carry out your punishment in the first place, you're going to need alot of police evidence to make absolutely sure that the guy is 100% guilty, even 99% means he might be innocent, and 1 innocent person punished would mean whole system would crumble - it'd be riots. This is why people on death row in the US usually stays there for 10+ years, you need to make sure. I don't need to tell you that this is VERY costly. And god forbid IF someone gets wrongfully punished, you're not looking at a few hundred thousand £ you'd get for being innocent in jail, you are looking at several million £ to the guy, money that could have kept several prisoners in prison for their entire life.

 

[Ned]

The truth is, people commit crimes because they must. There's very few who does it because they find it fun(this is the type of people in prison in Sweden)

The best way to prevent crime is taking away the reason to do them, in most cases poverty, unemployment, helping the 15 year old kids out etc.

As I said earlier, everybody who commits a crime does it because they think they can get away with it. They never even think about the punishment they'll actually get from doing it if caught, so that makes your idea of punishment as a people scarer kinda pointless.

Now to carry out your punishment in the first place, you're going to need alot of police evidence to make absolutely sure that the guy is 100% guilty, even 99% means he might be innocent, and 1 innocent person punished would mean whole system would crumble - it'd be riots. This is why people on death row in the US usually stays there for 10+ years, you need to make sure. I don't need to tell you that this is VERY costly. And god forbid IF someone gets wrongfully punished, you're not looking at a few hundred thousand £ you'd get for being innocent in jail, you are looking at several million £ to the guy, money that could have kept several prisoners in prison for their entire life.

People commit crimes because they must!! What utter Bullshit.
Everyone has a choice.
And of course they know that there is a chance that they will be caught.
The reason that they continue to commit crime is because they either do not give a shit about the people they offend against, or they are greedy, or perhaps both. (i know there may be alternative reasons but I'm not going to try to list them all)

I know many people that have encountered poverty -my grandparents for example. Yet they would never dream of commiting crime for personal gain.

Advances in Forensic science has made wrongful arrest considerably difficult.
I suggested in my opinion that those who were found guilty be punished -harshly. But only in cases where their guilt is beyond doubt.

As for several million for being wrongfully convicted, you are again talking bullshit.

A guy recently who was found not guilty and wrongfully sentenced for murder, only recieved about £700,000.
(I will try and find this link and post)

*Edited for wrong info, was from memory..This is the correct link http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4523981.ece

 

[Ned]

Also, with reference to costs.

Here is a quick breakdown of some costs as an example.

Government "Widly Out of Touch" with Prison Crisis Cost to South Wales Police (Jenny Willott MP)

 

[Olgaline]

no it wouldn't, just look at the states in the US that allow it. their prisons is overflooded with more death row prisoners then normal ones because they keep fighting the scentance.

me thinks someone has Corporal punishment mixed up with capitol punishment

Other than that, I think any notion of purpouse infliction of pain on someone els is stupid at best,
and just about as retarded as capitol punishment.

 

[Helme]

Yes he recieved £700,000 for being wrongfully accused and put in jail, which is quite alot considering jail according to you & The Sun is pretty much a 5 star hotel.

Now if we'd instead whipped the guy until he bled, like you suggest we add as punishment - the money this innocent guy would have got, would probably be much much higher - agree? and seeing as 700k is 300k from 1 million, my statement of millions isn't that off.

And every criminal is a greedy asshole? that's kinda like saying every muslim is a suicide bomber. People always do what they do because it works out the best for them, thats the law of nature. You do it, I do it, everyone does it. Thats why Africa still is poor as fuck and why Jessica Alba won't sleep with me.

The truth is that, if everyone had what they wanted, there would be no need for crimes. Thus the logical way to reduce crime - take away the reason to commit them.

 

[Olgaline]

if however you really want to mwss with a human being, put them in soletary isolation, as in true isolation! no tv, no windows, no outside communication! and only allow them 1 hour of solitary outside time, in ulterration so that they have no bearing on time.

 

[Ned]

Yes he recieved £700,000 for being wrongfully accused and put in jail, which is quite alot considering jail according to you & The Sun is pretty much a 5 star hotel.

Now if we'd instead whipped the guy until he bled, like you suggest we add as punishment - the money this innocent guy would have got, would probably be much much higher - agree? and seeing as 700k is 300k from 1 million, my statement of millions isn't that off.

And every criminal is a greedy asshole? that's kinda like saying every muslim is a suicide bomber.

People always do what they do because it works out the best for them, thats the law of nature.

You do it, I do it, everyone does it. Thats why Africa still is poor as fuck and why Jessica Alba won't sleep with me.

The truth is that, if everyone had what they wanted, there would be no need for crimes. Thus the logical way to reduce crime - take away the reason to commit them.

Do you actually read my posts?

I said people should be punished where there is no doubt of their guilt.

And I didn't say all criminals were greedy assholes. Please quote where I said that.
I said perhaps they are greedy as a reason why they commit crime. The fact that people want to take what other people have because they can, kind of defines greed. This is possibly the main reason people commit crime. Because they won't work for stuff, they would rather take from those who do..and maybe kill to do it.

And where do you presume that I think a prison is the same as a 5 star hotel?
Although I do agree that prison is too lenient.

And why is Africa so poor? LOL

Also I think that why Jessica Alba won't sleep with you is again, an entirely different reason.

FFS, OFC there would be no reason for crime if everyone had what they wanted..
And take away the reason people commit crime..Please explain.I would love to hear this.

Take away poverty? How?
Take away mental illness? How?
Take away greed? How?

LOL, I'm dying to hear this

*edit Also, you misquoted me on every statement you made! (apart from compensation payment)

 

[Ned]

if however you really want to mwss with a human being, put them in soletary isolation, as in true isolation! no tv, no windows, no outside communication! and only allow them 1 hour of solitary outside time, in ulterration so that they have no bearing on time.

This solution has merit.

If a person was limited to the amount of communication they had with the outside world, it would maybe give them time to reflect on their position in society.
Prison will never be effective unless it has a significant effect on the prisoner.

Maybe a prisoner who has been without contact with society will learn to cherish it.

I would be in favour.

 

[tierk]

I think thats fascinating, forgive me if i'm sticking words into your mouth, I'm just trying to verbalise how I understand what you are saying

No problem it is a discussion after all.

You were smoking weed because there was virtually no punishment in the UK, now don't smoke it because you are affraid of the strict punishment in Qatar

I was smoking weed because i like to smoke weed and the fact that there is a 99% probability of suffering zero punishment - except the slap on yer wrist - was just a additional bonus factor.

However, i know that if i should ever get caught in Qatar smoking, in all probability i would end up doing an long session in a jail over here - a jail which i might add is 100 times worse then anything that you would have to face in England.

Therefore i no longer smoke when i am liviing /working in Qatar as the punishment is heavy.

Is it just me or does that destroy any argument that criminals are any different to normal people?

Its just you!!

I dont for one minute think that all criminals are totally different to everyone else - exception being pedo's, rapists and probably serial killers. Jails are full of ordinary people who have chosen to walk down a certain path and they should be punished accordingly. You want to be a thief, dealer, robber - whatever - then you should be prepared to face the punishment.

As it stands currently the punishment for the majority of crimes in England are way too soft. The punishment should have a direct relation to the crime that has been committed. No payment of fines or bills - non payment because of a genuine inability to pay off course and not careless disregard - for example should never end up with people being locked up or flogged.

However some C**t that feels that it is ok to rob people at knife point or beat people up should get a proper taste of what he is dishing out to people himself.

you can not in any way compare a democratic country with islam or any other dictatorial country and use those as arguments.

As i said in my earlier post i dont want to turn this into a Muslim or Islam debate. Also as i have pointed out in my very first post

Also i think a few people posting on this thread need to go and find out the difference between capital and corporal punishment.

and as Olga has said

me thinks someone has Corporal punishment mixed up with capitol punishment

please go and find out the difference between corporal and capital punishment and when you have figured out what this debate is actually about feel free to join in.

The truth is that, if everyone had what they wanted, there would be no need for crimes. Thus the logical way to reduce crime - take away the reason to commit them.

Yes if we all had what we wanted there would be no crime but in reality that will never ever happen. However, to say that every criminal is committing a crime does so because they are poor is utter tripe. The majority of people in Qatar are bloody poor - labourers and maids etc - and there is a minority that own everything and have everything - Hawkwind would probably tell you the same about the UAE - and yet we dont have a problem with crime over here.

 

[Olgaline]

please go and find out the difference between corporal and capital punishment and when you have figured out what this debate is actually about feel free to join in.

huh ?
what the ! are you on drugs ?

this thread was origionally about coperol punishment, my coment refers to ctuch's responce at that time wich as far I can gather, seems to refer to capitol punishment.

now what the hell are you on about ?

 

[Ned]

Actually, when I started this thread I was intending to discuss Corporal punishment, but it has since evolved into Capital punishment also.

Please feel free to discuss your opinions on both, I would love to hear them.

 

[Olgaline]

both to me seem redunant tbh,
I do however agree that inmates in western european prisons have it "too easy" (not that I'd trade places with any of them, would you ?)

things like computers, game boxes, phones & tv's should be prohibited.
but as it's often seen in USA, even the stictest of prohibitions in the hardest enforced prisons, often fail, the inmates & human nature, will allways find a way around it.
but dosent mean it shouldnt be enforced or at least attempted. however I'm not a fan of complete isolation either, wich is "to me" basicly just another form of torture. And as I view my self as being at least marginaly civilized, i cannot condone torture in any shape or form, "with the exeption of torturing your on kids with the virtue of patience"

 

[Ned]

both to me seem redunant tbh,
I do however agree that inmates in western european prisons have it "too easy" (not that I'd trade places with any of them, would you ?)

thyings like computers, game boxes, phones & tv's should be prohibited.
but as it's often seen in USA, even the stictest of prohibitions in the hardest enforced prisons, often fail, the inmates & human nature, will allways find a way around it.
but dosent mean it shouldnt be enforced or at least attempted. however I'm not a fan of complete isolation either, wich is basicly a form of torture

Hmm, now I'm confused..Didn't you mention isolation as a way to punish prisoners?

I agree that prisoners should not have luxury items though. At all.

They should be allowed letters so that they can see the effect that their actions have on the people that they love and have left behind.

 

[Olgaline]

aye I did,

I was mearly stating an example, dosent nessersarily mean that I agree with it or condone it

 

[Ned]

Ok, fair point. Would you like to venture on an opinion on how you would change the UK judicial system?

I thought your isolation idea was valid.

 

[Olgaline]

heh, well..
As I dont live in the UK and thus dont really know the turns and bumps of your judicial system it's kinda hard, but if it's anything like the danish system then well basicly as I've already pre mentioned. the notion of luxury and perks in coexistence with serving jail sentances has me confused.

 

[Olgaline]

Also "at least where denmark is concerned" I'd like to see a full re evaluation and overhaul of the sentencing system, wich imo is waaaay! outdated.

These benchmarks where set back in the early 20'th century where economical crime was penalized alot harder than physical crime. but times hacve changed and I at least find it apualing that someone gets a few mounths for rape, or beating someone to a vegi state, but go steal 10.000 from a persons account and you'll end up spending 5-10 years.