Bye :)

[BloodOmen]

All i've got to say at GOA is... lol... gg... idiots... tedious ten and falcons deserve respect from players tbh because i would have done the exact same... the person who reported them harps on about it ruining the game? errr so does ac raiding? how is that in the spirit of the game? fucking idiot :l yet another alb baby spitting his dummy... well in that respec i'm going to join mastade in reporting AC peeps because thats also against the spirit of the game no?....

 

[IainC]

Right. I am going to make one post and one post only on this topic. I will not reply to PMs regarding this and I will not enter into a discussion via RightNow except with the accounts concerned. Also I will not disclose logs or discuss details of what sanctions may or may not have been applied to various accounts.

Spirit of the game is a very subjective term which is why it isn't down to any one person's point of view. The English team discussed the incident and we all came to the same conclusion. This is not about any one GMs personal feelings or ideals, it came from a discussion about whether this sort of behaviour should be considered acceptable or not. Downgrading the keep isn't against the spirit of the game neither is refusing to defend it. What was the sticking point for us was the combination of intent and action. The intention was clearly to sabotage their realm and the efforts of those who had taken the relic.

I'm not going to get drawn into a debate as to whether or not 'AC raids' are a good thing or not - on a personal level I don't think they are, however from a professional level they are an entirely legitimate part of the game. Players have several means ingame and elsewhere to make their feelings known and make their stand on either side of that argument. You have the right to attend or not to attend a raid or a defence to attack an enemy or to leave him be. These are things that are personal choices and have little effect outside of a very small sphere of influence. No guild or alliance however has the right to undermine the efforts of their realm though. If you don't agree with the way the relic was taken then that is fine and you are fully entitled to your opinion, if your guild happens to be paying the bounty points for the keep with the relic in it then by all means hand the keep off to a guild that doesn't share your views on defending the relic, you do not have the right however to unilaterally sabotage its defence. The relic does not belong to you or your guild, it belongs to your realm. Acting against the interests of your realm in a material manner is very clearly against the spirit of the game, a line has been crossed hence action has to be taken.

Regarding the application of the spirit of the game clause in other situations. I've seen people compare this to the 'adding' issue. The same rules apply. You are not obliged to attack an enemy or defend a friend. You are not however allowed to actively assist an enemy against your own realm. By design the game gives you very few ways in which it's possible to do this, marking friendly stealthers for an enemy is pretty much as far as it goes under normal circumstances. The issue of releasing keeps for iRvR is a grey area which we look into on a case by case basis (and yes, people have got into trouble for that in the past when it was clear that they were crossrealming), however that does not have the same impact that offering a relic on a plate to the enemy does.

Ultimately the game is about 3 realms fighting. If people keep that in mind, they are unlikely to find themselves in trouble.

 

[Luz]

There is no way to read this except :
GOA find AC-raids completely legit - trying to intefer with them will get you banned because then you are activly backstabbing your own realm.

Great.

Let's come up with times and agree on terms where we divide the 24 hours up into 3 parts, each realm has the frontiers 8 hours / each and in that time no others will be in the frontier. This way its equal to all - everyone has the same shot at PvE:ing relics. Oki

 

[BloodOmen]

Right. I am going to make one post and one post only on this topic. I will not reply to PMs regarding this and I will not enter into a discussion via RightNow except with the accounts concerned. Also I will not disclose logs or discuss details of what sanctions may or may not have been applied to various accounts.

Spirit of the game is a very subjective term which is why it isn't down to any one person's point of view. The English team discussed the incident and we all came to the same conclusion. This is not about any one GMs personal feelings or ideals, it came from a discussion about whether this sort of behaviour should be considered acceptable or not. Downgrading the keep isn't against the spirit of the game neither is refusing to defend it. What was the sticking point for us was the combination of intent and action. The intention was clearly to sabotage their realm and the efforts of those who had taken the relic.

I'm not going to get drawn into a debate as to whether or not 'AC raids' are a good thing or not - on a personal level I don't think they are, however from a professional level they are an entirely legitimate part of the game. Players have several means ingame and elsewhere to make their feelings known and make their stand on either side of that argument. You have the right to attend or not to attend a raid or a defence to attack an enemy or to leave him be. These are things that are personal choices and have little effect outside of a very small sphere of influence. No guild or alliance however has the right to undermine the efforts of their realm though. If you don't agree with the way the relic was taken then that is fine and you are fully entitled to your opinion, if your guild happens to be paying the bounty points for the keep with the relic in it then by all means hand the keep off to a guild that doesn't share your views on defending the relic, you do not have the right however to unilaterally sabotage its defence. The relic does not belong to you or your guild, it belongs to your realm. Acting against the interests of your realm in a material manner is very clearly against the spirit of the game, a line has been crossed hence action has to be taken.

Regarding the application of the spirit of the game clause in other situations. I've seen people compare this to the 'adding' issue. The same rules apply. You are not obliged to attack an enemy or defend a friend. You are not however allowed to actively assist an enemy against your own realm. By design the game gives you very few ways in which it's possible to do this, marking friendly stealthers for an enemy is pretty much as far as it goes under normal circumstances. The issue of releasing keeps for iRvR is a grey area which we look into on a case by case basis (and yes, people have got into trouble for that in the past when it was clear that they were crossrealming), however that does not have the same impact that offering a relic on a plate to the enemy does.

Ultimately the game is about 3 realms fighting. If people keep that in mind, they are unlikely to find themselves in trouble.

well no offence or anything but the english team are idiots then :/

 

[Takitothemacs]

Right. I am going to make one post and one post only on this topic. I will not reply to PMs regarding this and I will not enter into a discussion via RightNow except with the accounts concerned. Also I will not disclose logs or discuss details of what sanctions may or may not have been applied to various accounts.

Spirit of the game is a very subjective term which is why it isn't down to any one person's point of view. The English team discussed the incident and we all came to the same conclusion. This is not about any one GMs personal feelings or ideals, it came from a discussion about whether this sort of behaviour should be considered acceptable or not. Downgrading the keep isn't against the spirit of the game neither is refusing to defend it. What was the sticking point for us was the combination of intent and action. The intention was clearly to sabotage their realm and the efforts of those who had taken the relic.

I'm not going to get drawn into a debate as to whether or not 'AC raids' are a good thing or not - on a personal level I don't think they are, however from a professional level they are an entirely legitimate part of the game. Players have several means ingame and elsewhere to make their feelings known and make their stand on either side of that argument. You have the right to attend or not to attend a raid or a defence to attack an enemy or to leave him be. These are things that are personal choices and have little effect outside of a very small sphere of influence. No guild or alliance however has the right to undermine the efforts of their realm though. If you don't agree with the way the relic was taken then that is fine and you are fully entitled to your opinion, if your guild happens to be paying the bounty points for the keep with the relic in it then by all means hand the keep off to a guild that doesn't share your views on defending the relic, you do not have the right however to unilaterally sabotage its defence. The relic does not belong to you or your guild, it belongs to your realm. Acting against the interests of your realm in a material manner is very clearly against the spirit of the game, a line has been crossed hence action has to be taken.

Regarding the application of the spirit of the game clause in other situations. I've seen people compare this to the 'adding' issue. The same rules apply. You are not obliged to attack an enemy or defend a friend. You are not however allowed to actively assist an enemy against your own realm. By design the game gives you very few ways in which it's possible to do this, marking friendly stealthers for an enemy is pretty much as far as it goes under normal circumstances. The issue of releasing keeps for iRvR is a grey area which we look into on a case by case basis (and yes, people have got into trouble for that in the past when it was clear that they were crossrealming), however that does not have the same impact that offering a relic on a plate to the enemy does.

Ultimately the game is about 3 realms fighting. If people keep that in mind, they are unlikely to find themselves in trouble.

just the sort of wooly insubstantial round the house through the gardens and anything you can to avoid the actual issue response that I have come to expect from you in all honesty.

Thought of respecing to french politics with a secondary spec in running away from the issues... it might suit you. You certainly seem to have the right starting stats!

 

[Tuthmes]

And on that bases, (aka grey area) you ban people for 5 days. Gw Requiel!

 

[Matriarch|Sneakers]

Ofc you are right mate...but

First of all, the CoC mentions nothing about this kind of action, just simple refering to SotG is just rediculous since there are 10000000 of actions every day that could be refered to this. GoA would have any customers left at all if banned all that acted against the SotG.

Also they have already made a ruling with this particular action and the result was: "A guild can do what it will with a keep it has claimed." So that ruling should overrule all CoC references until they change that officially.

All of the above should have left GoA with 2 decisitions:

Go in officially in the game, and releasing the keep for someone else to claim. And going out on the official website clearly stating that this is against the CoC.

OR

Let the ingame be as it was, and say nothing leaving it at: You can do what you want with a claimed keep.

Banning someone for this is just wrong and a bully attitude that we havent paied them for. And banning the BF GM just makes it look lika a witch hunt.

We and GoA must always remember that we are all paying customers, and even the individual must be protected by them. They should never be allowed to sacrifice one customer, because next time it will be you who are left out to dry randomly.

/Charmangle

100% agree.

Also that joke of a company GoA should learn to be more flexible. In these times when the server are struggling some people try to step up and say 'enough is enough, you can't carry on like this, it is killing the server', and sure they will get the obvious argument and random flames but a BAN...jesus.

It's not like GoA done anything of late to help the server, all they do is pushing it furhter to the closure, ( not like WE YOUR paying customers expect that you will cluster us, b/c that would obviously involve an effort from your side. ) of the server.

If yo do not understand that overkilling the enemy realm will result in people moving. Making it impossible for the other realm to have any rewarding RvR will result in people moving. Lack of consideration and deliberate stubborness to the issue at hand will make people move.

Result is a server with less then 300 people, or even worse a completly empty server, and as I said before you shouldn't expect that joke of a company to step up and help you because thats not on their agenda.

 

[Caylan Raal]

Ultimately the game is about 3 realms fighting. If people keep that in mind, they are unlikely to find themselves in trouble.

Except now it isnt - theres only 1 realm. Players from that realm - notably TT - made the effort to restore a balance. They did not do ths entirely for their own selfish reasons. They did it for the good of the community. The poll in this thread: https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?t=210962 is a clear indication what the majority of the community want. Therefore your decision, although perhaps has merits on a moral lvl, is in negative contrast to the moral views of the majority of the english cluster (poll proves this).

Perhaps if you took a look at the global picture of the cluster instead of the constricted issue at hand you would have come to a different, more suitable decision. Or perhaps not. But your decision has had a demoralising effect on the community.

Consequently i must maintain your decision was wrong, and its my impression you failed to consider all the angles when making your decision (i say you i mean GoA - nothing personal towards you)

 

[Anvar]

Even though people have strongly advised against me posting the following, I'm doing it anyway as I could not care less about the people that will /point and laugh, but do wish to inform the more serious part of the community of how these things are solved by the people in charge of this game. For me this email, and all of the negative reactions of the albs whose eyes we wanted to open, is the confirmation that things sadly will not improve on this cluster. As a result, I will sadly too quit this server.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,

We have investigated an incident of griefplay and found your account to be involved. The specifics are:

Character: Sollers
Account: binklaar
Date: 29/11/2006
Details of the offence: Acting in a manner which is clearly against the spirit of the game and against the interests of your realm. We consider this to be grief play. Specifically conspiring to downgrade a keep containing a relic to expedeite a retake by an enemy realm.
Consequences for the account: Suspended 5 days.

Sorry to hear this , both of you who got banned when neither of you did anything against the spirtit of the game. GOA in one fell swoop have managed to lose any credibility they had, which to be fair was very little. Could it be they are trying to hasten the demise of daoc in time for their anounced launch of warhammer in europe or am I just too cynical ;p

Either way only one word to sum them up - fuktards.

 

[Mabs]

wow, how pathetic is this.

Firstly, fair play to TT and the rest for doing it.
Now i may have misunderstood this but...
-GOA make a ruling on this.
-people whinge about it.
-GOA change their tune.
so they are allowing themselves to be pressured into making a decision which clearly wasnt their initial one, by people whining at them. how about stick to your guns and behave sensibly instead of playing favourites with the whiners.

tbh, youve lost ALL credibility you ever had. you claimed in the past that you dont do things based on FH accounts/posts because they could be faked, but i really doubt that this many people bothered to RightNow it ? so you are in fact, spouting rubbish. dunno if its one person being schizophrenic, or whether its too many chefs, and it depends who gets the email first. either way, its no way to operate.

end of the day, you let yourselves be pushed around on this, which you have, and you open the floodgate. have lots of fun with all the RN you will undoubtly be getting from people about EVERYTHING possible, and they will probably continue to do so until you do what they want, and why not, youve bent over for this, you can be made to do it again.

i was taking a break from daoc, and i will now not be coming back, and frankly, if this is the way GOA are evolving, i will be going to USA for WAR.

 

[Takitothemacs]

But your decision has had a demoralising effect on the community.

Not only demoralising.. but destructive.... but at the end of the day GOA will see soon enough that they are proceeding as the authors of their own demise.

 

[Luz]

Except now it isnt - theres only 1 realm. Players from that realm - notably TT - made the effort to restore a balance. They did not do ths entirely for their own selfish reasons. They did it for the good of the community. The poll in this thread: https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?t=210962 is a clear indication what the majority of the community want. Therefore your decision, although perhaps has merits on a moral lvl, is in negative contrast to the moral views of the majority of the english cluster (poll proves this).

Perhaps if you took a look at the global picture of the cluster instead of the constricted issue at hand you would have come to a different, more suitable decision. Or perhaps not. But your decision has had a demoralising effect on the community.

This is where the usuall "FH is just a tiny part of the cluster the majority dont visit any forums at all so we automaticly asume they dont share FH opinions" which we seen before.

 

[QuickStix]

just the sort of wooly insubstantial round the house through the gardens and anything you can to avoid the actual issue response that I have come to expect from you in all honesty.

Thought of respecing to french politics with a secondary spec in running away from the issues... it might suit you. You certainly seem to have the right starting stats!

I thought she answered it pretty well. and if u cant see the validty in what she told us then your a muppet.

what did u expect her to say ? you should know they cant go into detail rearding certain individual accounts.

But the reasons shet states as to why they was banned makes sense to me.. harsh.. possibly yes.. but still make a lot of sense.

 

[BloodOmen]

wow, how pathetic is this.

Firstly, fair play to TT and the rest for doing it.
Now i may have misunderstood this but...
-GOA make a ruling on this.
-people whinge about it.
-GOA change their tune.
so they are allowing themselves to be pressured into making a decision which clearly wasnt their initial one, by people whining at them. how about stick to your guns and behave sensibly instead of playing favourites with the whiners.

tbh, youve lost ALL credibility you ever had. you claimed in the past that you dont do things based on FH accounts/posts because they could be faked, but i really doubt that this many people bothered to RightNow it ? so you are in fact, spouting rubbish. dunno if its one person being schizophrenic, or whether its too many chefs, and it depends who gets the email first. either way, its no way to operate.

end of the day, you let yourselves be pushed around on this, which you have, and you open the floodgate. have lots of fun with all the RN you will undoubtly be getting from people about EVERYTHING possible, and they will probably continue to do so until you do what they want, and why not, youve bent over for this, you can be made to do it again.

i was taking a break from daoc, and i will now not be coming back, and frankly, if this is the way GOA are evolving, i will be going to USA for WAR.

also will be going to USA for War

 

[klasa]

Right. I am going to make one post and one post only on this topic. I will not reply to PMs regarding this and I will not enter into a discussion via RightNow except with the accounts concerned. Also I will not disclose logs or discuss details of what sanctions may or may not have been applied to various accounts.

Spirit of the game is a very subjective term which is why it isn't down to any one person's point of view. The English team discussed the incident and we all came to the same conclusion. This is not about any one GMs personal feelings or ideals, it came from a discussion about whether this sort of behaviour should be considered acceptable or not. Downgrading the keep isn't against the spirit of the game neither is refusing to defend it. What was the sticking point for us was the combination of intent and action. The intention was clearly to sabotage their realm and the efforts of those who had taken the relic.

I'm not going to get drawn into a debate as to whether or not 'AC raids' are a good thing or not - on a personal level I don't think they are, however from a professional level they are an entirely legitimate part of the game. Players have several means ingame and elsewhere to make their feelings known and make their stand on either side of that argument. You have the right to attend or not to attend a raid or a defence to attack an enemy or to leave him be. These are things that are personal choices and have little effect outside of a very small sphere of influence. No guild or alliance however has the right to undermine the efforts of their realm though. If you don't agree with the way the relic was taken then that is fine and you are fully entitled to your opinion, if your guild happens to be paying the bounty points for the keep with the relic in it then by all means hand the keep off to a guild that doesn't share your views on defending the relic, you do not have the right however to unilaterally sabotage its defence. The relic does not belong to you or your guild, it belongs to your realm. Acting against the interests of your realm in a material manner is very clearly against the spirit of the game, a line has been crossed hence action has to be taken.

Regarding the application of the spirit of the game clause in other situations. I've seen people compare this to the 'adding' issue. The same rules apply. You are not obliged to attack an enemy or defend a friend. You are not however allowed to actively assist an enemy against your own realm. By design the game gives you very few ways in which it's possible to do this, marking friendly stealthers for an enemy is pretty much as far as it goes under normal circumstances. The issue of releasing keeps for iRvR is a grey area which we look into on a case by case basis (and yes, people have got into trouble for that in the past when it was clear that they were crossrealming), however that does not have the same impact that offering a relic on a plate to the enemy does.

Ultimately the game is about 3 realms fighting. If people keep that in mind, they are unlikely to find themselves in trouble.

Thanks Requiel and here is my good bye note. For those of you who know me ingame I played a BM called Riccio and a Hero called Rohwan. Was thinking about going to Avalon but decided that I will never again play on a server jandled by GoA. Thank you for making my descision a simple one Reqiel, and I think your job being a GM for an english server very simple in the future. You will have no one to take care of.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot of things we can do about it. Some players just don't consider the future and are more interested in instant gratification without considering anyone else.

The Cluster does not fare well with Relic movements these days. Grabbing one is exceedingly short-sighted, and when they find people (the majority, actually), trying to stop them from causing that sort of damage, they hide behind the CoC and call on GOA. GOA does not have much of a choice. They can either ignore the issue, or follow the 'letter of the law' -and not the intention behind it-, and hand out bans.

I don't agree with the choice GOA made, but they had to do something. The problem isn't GOA or their choice of resolvement. It's the idiot players who caused the incident to begin with.

The hilarious part is that they are posting in this thread all feeling 'sorry' that it had to come this far, while not being sorry one bit. They're selfish, shortsighted idiots, who cause more damage to the game than they realise, and then proceed to blame it on others.

I have nothing but respect for the choice TT made, and find it sad that they get banned (even if it's only for 5 days), for trying to do the right thing.

 

[Tubbs]

This is not an issue of people spitting dummies... hell I rarely find myself in agreement with Censi on anything... but this rather is a discussion about GoA and their inability to follow their own policy and their willingness to hide behind generalised coverall statements rather than using the rulebook that they publish that covers what is or is not against the CoC. Their move to say that this action is against the spirit of the game is a blatant... "we are getting screamed at by loud group of people and we dont have a book that we can throw at someone... lets write a quick title with no substance and throw that at them instead of the book" move!

GoA aren't hiding behind anything, last time I checked Albion were at war with Hibernia. If tedious ten had carried out an action such as this in a real war situation, it's likely that the whole guild would be executed for treason.

He should just accept the ban and move on.

 

[Eruptix]

hahahahaha

rofl @ GOA once again


this is why ppl really DONT want GOA to host Warhammer EU servers,Gm's acting like that is just..lol

fkn roleplayers

 

[Gahn]

English Team needs some more brainstorming me thinks, cause this one was actually poor to say the least. Anyway if u wanna endorce actions from a small minority pissing off the majority of the Cluster hence making of it a Ghost Town like Glastonbury u are taking the steps in the right direction.
Guessing if instead of a reroll on Avalon ain't better closing accounts and move to US, will give a deep thought about it l8er on in the day.

 

[Mabs]

Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot of things we can do about it.

vote with your feet --> door

 

[klasa]

GoA aren't hiding behind anything, last time I checked Albion were at war with Hibernia. If tedious ten had carried out an action such as this in a real war situation, it's likely that the whole guild would be executed for treason.

He should just accept the ban and move on.

Are you stupid? It's not a war it's a game. What part of that can't you comprehend? Really glad I'm not your friend IRL.

 

[IainC]

I'm just going to clear up one point that I forgot to make in my earlier post.
There was never any 'ruling from us' that was later reversed. We were asked many times about this incident before we made our decision and at no point did we say that it was legitimate or that we would not take action. We did say that we would not interfere ingame (by for example moving the relic or releasing the keep to another guild) however we always stated when asked that we'd be looking into the wider issue of whether the CoC had been broken and would possibly take action accordingly.

 

[Icebreaker]

I'm just going to clear up one point that I forgot to make in my earlier post.
There was never any 'ruling from us' that was later reversed. We were asked many times about this incident before we made our decision and at no point did we say that it was legitimate or that we would not take action. We did say that we would not interfere ingame (by for example moving the relic or releasing the keep to another guild) however we always stated when asked that we'd be looking into the wider issue of whether the CoC had been broken and would possibly take action accordingly.

Or just say:

We want to see the server die and won't change anything to make it a better place to be!
Suspending Members of TT was a really bad move and maybe you should suspend yourself for acting against the spirit of the server.

 

[Gahn]

GoA aren't hiding behind anything, last time I checked Albion were at war with Hibernia. If tedious ten had carried out an action such as this in a real war situation, it's likely that the whole guild would be executed for treason.

He should just accept the ban and move on.

Maybe u should be shot also in the process, MAYBE.

 

[QuickStix]

Are you stupid? It's not a war it's a game. What part of that can't you comprehend? Really glad I'm not your friend IRL.

why all the drama n whinging then if just a game?

 

[Gahn]

I'm just going to clear up one point that I forgot to make in my earlier post.
There was never any 'ruling from us' that was later reversed. We were asked many times about this incident before we made our decision and at no point did we say that it was legitimate or that we would not take action. We did say that we would not interfere ingame (by for example moving the relic or releasing the keep to another guild) however we always stated when asked that we'd be looking into the wider issue of whether the CoC had been broken and would possibly take action accordingly.

So lowering a keep in enemy territory ain't against SoTG (AoD incident not so long ago) but if suddenly there's a Relic involved it is? It seems to me u quite changed the rules, i'd say u DEFO changed em.

 

[Matriarch|Sneakers]

Long post.

I understand how you guys think here, I understand your only the little footman here and didn't have any particular role in the decision.

But you should raise the issue with your boss, that is GoA, that this server will be dead in 2-3 months if nothing changes. We need more players, sanctioning the actions of AC raids and as alot of other people see it breaking the SotG is not brining people or solving problems, it is the oposite.

Now this is what you got, stop with the mumbojumbo and help us out, if not you will be out of a job very soon and the server will be more or less empty.

I don't think you realize how many people are going to US servers or Avalon. I myself only have 3-4 peoplpe I know since long back left on the server, this is the problem, solve it.

Hearing you say that it is not possible to cluster and it is not possible to charactar transfear isn't good enough, find a solution we PAY you money for it, this isn't acceptable.

 

[Gahn]

why all the drama n whinging then if just a game?

Cause there are some people who'd like to play it for more time before the lights turn off? Guess u ain't in that % tho.

 

[Takitothemacs]

I thought she answered it pretty well. and if u cant see the validty in what she told us then your a muppet.

what did u expect her to say ? you should know they cant go into detail rearding certain individual accounts.

But the reasons shet states as to why they was banned makes sense to me.. harsh.. possibly yes.. but still make a lot of sense.

a little bit of useless info...

Requiel is male.

and that answer was not answering the issue... or perhaps you missed the issue too... GOA cannot show us anywhere that it says that what was done is against the rules... Requiel even said in his reply that the spirit of the game issue is subjective... meaning there is nothing real upon which they can base their decisions... only the feelings of the GMs on the day they discussed it... if the GMs have had a bad day, hangover, pmt whatever then the decision from day to day will be inconsistent and therein lies the problem. They have no foundation for this or any future decision and as such have just said clearly in an open forum that they will not show any consistence and will base their decision on how they feel at the time... surely even you can see the futility of trying to uphold rules and standards when they have publicly said that they dont have anything substantial to base decisions on.

 

[Muylaetrix]

I thought she answered it pretty well. and if u cant see the validty in what she told us then your a muppet.

what did u expect her to say ? you should know they cant go into detail rearding certain individual accounts.

But the reasons shet states as to why they was banned makes sense to me.. harsh.. possibly yes.. but still make a lot of sense.

:worthy:

I can only agree with requiel tbh.