Bright Wizards

[Jenk]

Will cost you 120 gold.

 

[Jenk]

Of course, destruction has just as high a percentage of sorcs playing as there are BWs. Oh wait, they don't.

Follow your own advice.

I see plenty of sorcs every time I play.

 

[Aiteal]

Of course, destruction has just as high a percentage of sorcs playing as there are BWs. Oh wait, they don't.

Follow your own advice.

Percentage?
No
Numbers?
More

Waralytics War Classes

 

[klasa]

lol that was funny, even MORE sorcs then BW

 

[Aiteal]

lol that was funny, even MORE sorcs then BW

I think for every Order archetype there are more of the corresponding Destro mirror classes

Percentages mean diddly squat if the two sides don't have equal numbers

 

[Theodoric]

I play a BW but i havent contributed to the whine about them as it seemed pointless . But i will say this BW was a glass cannon they could do great damage but died very easily . Now they are just glass ..... we do similar damage to other classes yet we can kill ourselves whilst doing it what joy !

 

[klasa]

I think for every Order archetype there are more of the corresponding Destro mirror classes

Percentages mean diddly squat if the two sides don't have equal numbers

Well the Destro class with the highest percentage is ........ Sorc or?

 

[Aiteal]

Well the Destro class with the highest percentage is ........ Sorc or?

yeah sorc
It's the highest populated class in the game
and therefore most populated class percentage wise for Destro

 

[gordro]

Percentages mean diddly squat if the two sides don't have equal numbers

Actually - thats totally untrue

google "percentage" to see what it means

 

[Javai]

Percentages mean diddly squat if the two sides don't have equal numbers

The whole point of percentages is to neutralise differences in absolute numbers for the purposes of comparison. If the two sides have equal numbers you dont need percentages at all.

The figures you linked show that the highest dps classes are the most popular (no big surprise) but the concentration of BWs is greater than the concentration of Sorcs, though not by a huge margin 15% vs 12%

 

[Aiteal]

Actually - thats totally untrue

google "percentage" to see what it means

I know what it means
But talking of percentages is a straw man arguement if both sets are not equal

 

[Javai]

I know what it means
But talking of percentages is a straw man arguement if both sets are not equal

You can do so many fun things with statistics, if we look at t4 and t3 BWs are not only a higher concentration than Sorcs they also out number them.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

My understanding was that sorcs got pretty much the same nerfs as BWs (note: not fixes, I don't mean class broken stuff that got fixed). Not playing either class I might be wrong.

Please don't confuse nerfs with fixes. Stuff like Detonate was not a nerf, it was a fix: it was applying anything up to 15 times the damage it was supposed to. Combustion was a nerf.

 

[klasa]

I guess then that very many many many Sorcs sees many many Brightwizzards in game and complain about how OP they are.

That is what I find so amusing! It's really funny if you read through this thread.

 

[Aiteal]

You can do so many fun things with statistics, if we look at t4 and t3 BWs are not only a higher concentration than Sorcs they also out number them.

Funny things indeed
If we look at the scenarios played by player X on server Y on days X we could come up with something else.

But the fact remains that based on the data collected for that site there are more sorcs in the game than bright wizards.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Hmm last week someone showed me stats that showed 21% of active Order were Bright Wizards and there were way less sorcs on the same sheet.

Yep, stats show pretty much what you want them to. As Benjamin Disraeli said, "There's lies, damn lies and statistics."

 

[ramathorn]

I guess then that very many many many Sorcs sees many many Brightwizzards in game and complain about how OP they are.

That is what I find so amusing! It's really funny if you read through this thread.

and they would have been quite right too

The War Journal Blog Archive Bright Wizard and Sorceress; One Way Mirror?

please shut up until you read it

 

[Flimgoblin]

I know what it means
But talking of percentages is a straw man arguement if both sets are not equal

It means if you take a random order character and a random destruction character you're more likely to get a BW than a Sorc...

So if you take a random sample of 12 order characters and 12 destruction characters you'll get more BWs than Sorcs...

The T3/T4 percentages being way higher for BW than for Sorc are interesting - a larger percentage of BWs make it to T3/T4 than of sorcs.
This implies that it's a more pleasant experience to level a BW than other classes (e.g. engineers, 7% of all chars but only 4% of t4)

If Mythic see that BW's are out-levelling other classes and are also outperforming them in scenarios and open RvR in terms of damage done then it's going to be pretty clear that there's an issue.

How big an issue, what the fix should be and how big a fix is appropriate isn't so easily determined but there's definitely been an issue. Whether the latest patch has fixed it or gone too far in the other direction is hard to say.

You'll notice that the latest patch addressed only a few mechanics downwards:

Grudge (ironbreakers), backlash (sorcs/bws)
Nothing for marauders which surprises me.

Those are the 4 classes which have the highest percentage playing to t4.

The boosts were given to:
Magus, Squig herder, engineer and shadow warrior - all classes which drop in percentage from all->t4 (plus all but the shadow warrior are relatively unpopular in general).

 

[Flimgoblin]

But the fact remains that based on the data collected for that site there are more sorcs in the game than bright wizards.

That's because destruction is more popular than order. Which isn't so much a problem of mechanics as of look/feel.

The reason comparing 'total' character percentage with 't4' percentages is going to be useful to tell character balance is that it rules out the 'look of the character' and the 'which side I'm playing on' - you're left with just the effect of both perceived and actual experience - if people think they'll be uber at 40 they'll fight through the hard times, if they're burning their way through levels they'll get on with it. If they hit a wall because their turrets are really annoying they'll roll an alt. I guess it is possible that the look of t4 armour is what's putting people off of levelling their engineers but I doubt it

What I'm saying is that forum arguments/whine threads don't mean a thing - but Mythic will have statistics on who's playing what, how much they're playing it, where people are stopping/slowing down and how much damage/kills they're doing. They've not nerfed the bright wizards because people on WHA have gone WHAAAAAAAaaaaa. They've nerfed combustion mechanics because BWs and Sorcs were way above the curve.

 

[Aiteal]

It means if you take a random order character and a random destruction character you're more likely to get a BW than a Sorc...

So if you take a random sample of 12 order characters and 12 destruction characters you'll get more BWs than Sorcs...

Sorry
But again thats a straw man arguement unless you do nothing but play scenarios with equal numbers on both sides and each sides makeup always reflects the percentage popularity of the archetypes within the realm.

Tbh, I couldn't care less if they nerfed BW's

But the idea that Destro players are facing hordes of BW's that gets thrown out on every forum from here to WHA with a shortcut via VN does not reflect the simple fact that Order players as a whole are facing greater numbers of Sorcs.

 

[Vintersorg]

Sorry
But again thats a straw man arguement unless you do nothing but play scenarios with equal numbers on both sides and each sides makeup always reflects the percentage popularity of the archetypes within the realm.

Tbh, I couldn't care less if they nerfed BW's

But the idea that Destro players are facing hordes of BW's that gets thrown out on every forum from here to WHA with a shortcut via VN does not reflect the simple fact that Order players as a whole are facing greater numbers of Sorcs.

Please read this
15% BW's versus 12% Sorcs.
There are comparatively more BW's than Sorcs.

 

[Aiteal]

Please read this
15% BW's versus 12% Sorcs.
There are comparatively more BW's than Sorcs.

Read it yourself
There are comparatively more destro than order
Therefore there are more sorcs than bw's

What's so hard to grasp?
If you want to pull the percentages game
Don't neglect to mention that there are a bigger percentage of WaR characters who are sorcs than BW's

Thats the problem with straw man arguements
They get blown over too easily

 

[Vintersorg]

Read it yourself
There are comparatively more destro than order
Therefore there are more sorcs than bw's

What's so hard to grasp?
If you want to pull the percentages game
Don't neglect to mention that there are a bigger percentage of WaR characters who are sorcs than BW's

Thats the problem with straw man arguements
They get blown over too easily

Flim already mentioned it:
"It means if you take a random order character and a random destruction character you're more likely to get a BW than a Sorc...
So if you take a random sample of 12 order characters and 12 destruction characters you'll get more BWs than Sorcs..."

I would refer you to this article...but I'm sure you'd call it a straw man argument...

 

[Legean]

and they would have been quite right too

The War Journal Blog Archive Bright Wizard and Sorceress; One Way Mirror?

please shut up until you read it

A very poor comparison of the two classes. It highlights all the BWs strongest points against all the Sorcs weakest. It completely misses the AoE line out which are at least as different as the other lines and in the Sorcs favour.

They talk about added utility but fail to mention that sorcs have a 1 second cast 5 second disarm and BW has nothing comparable.

There are some good points in there but some points are obviously the writer just wanting to bash BWs by comparing a powerful ability with a weak one for sorcs. In some arguments he complains how the sorc has to do something before they can use a certain spell, such as with arctic blast but negates to inform you that is what is needed for Stop, Drop and roll too (needing a curse and ignite respectively). Stop, Drop and roll is also a 13 ability in a mastery line where as arctic blast is a core ability.

Its also now outdated.

 

[Turamber]

I am an Order player and I have a Bright Wizard. Rolled him the first week of retail, played him for two weeks and haven't played him since.

The dot spec seemed the best spec for scenarios but offered nothing, I thought, for open field RvR and keep fighting. It felt squishy, there weren't many healers playing in those early days and the Warrior Priest looked a lot cooler than the red headed stepchild.

Order don't have a lot of choice if they wish to play a caster. They have even less choice if they don't want to play a namby pamby skirtwearing girlie looking character (Archmage). I don't accept that BW's pulled the FOTM style players, and I don't accept the FOTM style players have moved on now.

They are just subjective opinions, grounded in a dislike for Order's main DPS class and the class most likely to kill Destruction players.

 

[Gwadien]

I'm not being funny, but I didn't read everything you wrote Roo, but i'll say this, it's not OUR fault we're over powered characters, it's an OP class, Yes, but we're not going to go around creating un-useful characters are we?


+ 1 Rep to Roo.

 

[Boggy]

Read it yourself
There are comparatively more destro than order
Therefore there are more sorcs than bw's

What's so hard to grasp?
If you want to pull the percentages game
Don't neglect to mention that there are a bigger percentage of WaR characters who are sorcs than BW's

Thats the problem with straw man arguements
They get blown over too easily

You and Flim are talking at cross purposes. You're talking about proportions but he's talking about probabilities.

The probabilities approach is more meaningful, because it deals with how likely you are to actually play against a class. Talking about abstract proportions irrespective of game mechanices doesn't really mean much at all in terms of gameplay impact.

Having said that, arguing the toss of 15% vs 12% is not worthwhile in my opinion. All it means BWs are marginally more popular and you will face a very small number more than order will face in sorcs.

Also, talking about these classes in isolation is a bit silly. I'd guess part of the reason (proportionally) less sorcs are being played than BWs would be the comparative popularity of the other DPS options. WEs may well be (proportionally) more played than WHs.

 

[ramathorn]

A very poor comparison of the two classes. It highlights all the BWs strongest points against all the Sorcs weakest. It completely misses the AoE line out which are at least as different as the other lines and in the Sorcs favour.

They talk about added utility but fail to mention that sorcs have a 1 second cast 5 second disarm and BW has nothing comparable.

There are some good points in there but some points are obviously the writer just wanting to bash BWs by comparing a powerful ability with a weak one for sorcs. In some arguments he complains how the sorc has to do something before they can use a certain spell, such as with arctic blast but negates to inform you that is what is needed for Stop, Drop and roll too (needing a curse and ignite respectively). Stop, Drop and roll is also a 13 ability in a mastery line where as arctic blast is a core ability.

Its also now outdated.

I dont think it was a poor comparison at all. I realise its out dated now, but in the context of the person I quoted it was completely relevant, if your going to argue a point atleast build it on facts.

Care to tell me which is so much better in the sorc AoE line? I had a quick browse down the destruction and conflagaration lines, pretty much everything has the same cast times and delve damage value.

I'll give you your point on the disarm, but lets be honest, who would take the disarm over playing with fire, boiling blood etc.

He's compared pretty much like for like on each spell, if you can point out an ability they he has compared incorrectly please do so.

He says that stop drop and roll consumes an ignite on the target? He's either written it badly by accident or intentionally. Lets face it, instant dot then instant knockdown is much easier and much more useful than instant dot, 2 sec cast for a 5 sec 40% snare. Yes its understood by everyone that SDaR is high in a mastery line, but its not like anything has to be sacrificed to get it as that line will be packed to the hilt because of all the other goodies in it. This is afterall why he compared to the same spell in the sorc's line (not arctic blast).

 

[Soazak]

HEH,

don't have much that is constructive to say, just wanted to be part of the epic thread where someone is trying to claim percentages are dependant on equal numbers.

Would be awsome if they implemented such a system into discrimination in employment etc "You must have 30,000,000 women in your work place!"



Personally though there are far too many sorcs and BW. I don't think either are overpowered, just too easy to be effective for bad players.

 

[Legean]

I dont think it was a poor comparison at all. I realise its out dated now, but in the context of the person I quoted it was completely relevant, if your going to argue a point atleast build it on facts.

Care to tell me which is so much better in the sorc AoE line? I had a quick browse down the destruction and conflagaration lines, pretty much everything has the same cast times and delve damage value.

I'll give you your point on the disarm, but lets be honest, who would take the disarm over playing with fire, boiling blood etc.

He's compared pretty much like for like on each spell, if you can point out an ability they he has compared incorrectly please do so.

He says that stop drop and roll consumes an ignite on the target? He's either written it badly by accident or intentionally. Lets face it, instant dot then instant knockdown is much easier and much more useful than instant dot, 2 sec cast for a 5 sec 40% snare. Yes its understood by everyone that SDaR is high in a mastery line, but its not like anything has to be sacrificed to get it as that line will be packed to the hilt because of all the other goodies in it. This is afterall why he compared to the same spell in the sorc's line (not arctic blast).

I didn't really want to get into comparing the classes so ill just be brief.

Sorc gets Infernal Wave which does DD in 65 foot infront, BW gets a higher delve DoT but has to be within 40 feet, which lets face it if your within 40 feet a tank is gonna start ripping into you.
Sorcs get Black Horror, a second AoE with the same damage but reduces the targets inititive which increases their chance to critically hit (50 can be as much as 7% or more depending on how much initiative the target has). BW gets a DoT with reasonible damage that spreads to do a small amount of damage each tick to people 20ft around the target on a 20 second recast and requiring the target to already be hexed.
The last in the line is more subjective, BW is AE knockback and damage, good for getting away not great for AE damage. Sorc is basically pit of shades meets hand of ruin so high focus damage bit with a 20ft radius.

So being the AoE line a sorc can pump out a lot more damage than a BW in a shorter space of time, whilst the BW gets a knockback which increases survivability but isn't that great for situations where AE is best suited, ie packed targets in a small area as it breaks them up.

I would take a core ability disarm in a heartbeat over playing with fire, especially now with the root changes. I dont acutally spec for playing with fire on my wiz atm and its not in my proposed final spec.

Ice spikes and Boiling blood just arn't similar apart from they are both DoTs. One is CAoE and the other is single target. Ice Spikes is like Flamebreath with less damage but 25ft larger range/effective area.
Boiling Blood doesn't really have an equal and is one of the good points I mentioned. Loosely, as its the only spell left, it would be like vision of torment which is not that great but not bad to annoy a healer of add a last spike bit of damage.

The whole article is based on all BWs being DoT specced which isn't true, I'm DD spec and so is another guildie whilst another is AoE spec (actually think DoT is the minority in our guild) this might not be the norm but shows not everyone is DoT specced. He also just passes DD spec as sorcs being slightly worse with nothing more said. But 2 insta DDs, one spamable, disarm, and a tactic that has a chance to put a protective barrier on anyone in the group that triggers when frozen touch triggers gives the sorc some pretty nice group utility. Also the stat debuffs, 120 willpower now and 50 initiative which make not only their own spells more likely to land and crit but anyone that attacks the debuffed targets.

Yes a BW has some nice toys and he makes some good points, but its mostly a one sided view because he plays the class and hasn't seen / just ignores the potential of the class hes playing.