Bright Wizards

Discussion in 'Warhammer' started by Roo Stercogburn, Dec 5, 2008.

  1. Xandax

    Xandax Loyal Freddie

    I read it - and it is just bias from a person who plays the spell-line list and not the game. Something similar can be put up about all classes, and especially when viewing in the light that the game - according to Mythic - wasn't to be balanced around 1vs1, it also goes to indicate that the mirrors weren't to be balanced as to equal power level.
    And it only goes back to my point: It is bad when Order has more powerful classes cause mirrors are meant to be equal, but quite okay when Destruction has cause mirrors aren't meant to be equal.
    WE are (much) more powerful then WHs, Marauders then WL, SHs then SWs (drinking bird plink playing style) and BLocks then SMs for example. Yet many people keep focusing on the BW vs. the Sorcs, and ignore the overall oRvR balance of the game.

    Too much scenario play for too many people I think......
     
  2. Aiteal

    Aiteal Can't get enough of FH

    When this becomes a 12 vs 12 game were each sides make up always reflects relative popularity within a realm get back to me.

    Till then we have a RvR game.
    Where the number of Destro characters outnumber the number of Order characters.
    The number of Sorcs outnumber BW's. (so too do Marauders)
    And the least rolled Destro class, the Magus still outnumbers it's order mirror

    And so on ad nasuem.

    The only area where this pattern may get broke is probably chosen and KotBS.

    But really, hang onto the probabilities thing
    It's as much fun to read as the old thread on FH were the majority of players said they were gonna roll Destro, then some had the temerity to go and claim Destro would be the underpopulated realm, described by some as the "Midgard of WaR"
    I gues the old percentages radar was jammed that day ;)
     
  3. Xandax

    Xandax Loyal Freddie

    Yet most could - especially after the guild beta see it'd be the Albion of WAR. :)
    Heck - that alone was why I rolled Order. Otherwise I'd be there whining as a Sorcerer.
     
  4. Stazbumpa

    Stazbumpa Fledgling Freddie

    One problem I see here is that people are supposing the "mirror" classes are going to be exactly the same, and they aint. They were never supposed to be.
     
  5. TheBinarySurfer

    TheBinarySurfer Can't get enough of FH

    Have to say the BW is thoroughly fucked after the patch. I do love the knee-jerk balancing - good job i have an AM and an SM to piss about on eh? :)
     
  6. Boggy

    Boggy Fledgling Freddie


    a) Don't be an arse. There's no need to take such a combative tone when all anyone is doing is discussing opinion on a computer game. Next time you catch yourself editing quotes just for effect, take a second to think about what this says about you.

    b) While some people may choose to ignore scenarios and pretend that the only valid RvR is zone RvR the truth is that both exist and that scenarios are probably accounting for vastly more player-hours. In a scenario the make up of each side does EXACTLY what you said I should wait for then get back to you. If you do not understand why, I won't be surprised, because all it will mean is that when I pointed out the difference between thinking about probabilities and thinking about proportions, you were already salivating about the opportunity to post something disagreeing with me.

    Scenarios have equal sides, approximately. Without additional contextual factors at our disposal, we can only conclude that the probability of each scenario participant being of a given class scales with the proportion of players playing that class irrespective of total population size.

    c) I would like to point out that you actually are only assuming there are more sorcs in total than BWs, because you are assuming that the population bias toward destro is of a sufficient magnitude to outweigh the class bias on order towards BWs. You can't substantiate that with figures and could in fact be completely wrong.
     
  7. Aiteal

    Aiteal Can't get enough of FH

    I'm not being an arse
    I'm simply editing the quote to show that I'm replying to you
    The only effect I'm trying to achieve is not cluttering up screen space with a giant quote


    As for assuming you can't accuse people of asuming then say "probably" and "approximately" to make a point without backing it up with anything other than supposition because then you become guilty of exactly what you are trying to accuse others of.


    I'm not assuming there are more Sorcs chars than BW's
    I'm going by data gathered by the site I linked to

    There are more sorcs chars rolled than marauders and more marauders rolled than bright wizards.

    If you want your FOTM of rolled classes list
    you have sorcs at the top
    marauders next
    and bright wizards third.


    What's funny is that posting the data in counter to anecdotal stories about the "1 time I was in a scenario and 90% of order were BW's" line that's rampant here and else where has lead to straw clutching about proportional representation of a magnitude that would make the Lib Dems uneasy.

    So in conclusion
    FOTM list
    Sorcs
    Marauders
    Bright Wizards
     
  8. Roo Stercogburn

    Roo Stercogburn Resident Freddy

    Nah.

    Only time I'd see one or no BWs in a scenario would be if it was really late at night. Most of the time there were at least three, and highest I've ever seen was seven.

    I've never seen the same spread of sorcs in a scenario over a lengthy period of time. I have however seen sorcs on par for damage at the end of a scenario, but nowhere near as often. I'd agree that sorc DPS was not far below BW DPS based on the numbers I've seen in scenarios but as pointed out by more numerically focused people that is of course not the whole story for any class.

    Can't comment on Marauders, didn't realise they were regarded as 'fotm' by anyone.

    BWs were definately top of the fotm list and anyone who couldn't see the nerf bat getting ready to swing was, if we are being kind, slightly blinkered. Still, its a tough pill to swallow and I understand why some players of BWs are seething as their dominance has been curtailed. Like I said at the very start of this thread, I've got respect for the people that continue in the class after the class adjustments. I am not being ironic or sarcastic and there is no hidden snide swipe.
     
  9. Aiteal

    Aiteal Can't get enough of FH

    haha
    Forget it

    My mistake in trying to introduce stats gathered by waranalytics into a one time in a scenario conversation.
    My mistake :)
     
  10. Flimgoblin

    Flimgoblin It's my birthday today!

    Actually what it seems that you're trying to say is that because there are more destruction players in total that bright wizards weren't overpowered.

    Hibs being lower pop than the other two realms didn't make Bainshees any less fotm, or warlocks for midgard.
     
  11. Aiteal

    Aiteal Can't get enough of FH

    sorry
    where did I say they were not Op'ed?

    So we've gone from selective percentages and one time in band camp stories to Aiteal is saying BW's were not OP'ed because he linked to a stats website that showed there are more Sorc chars than BWs?

    haha
    Seriously
    I'm done with this thread
    The stats are there, they show there are more Sorcs rolled than BW's
    But don't let that get in the way of a good thread
     
  12. Boggy

    Boggy Fledgling Freddie

    The quote function exists so that when someone reads your response, they can see what you are responding to. Really, that should not be something you need to have explained to you.

    The problem with the statistics you are trying to live and die by is that they DON'T tell you anything meaningful, as several people have pointed out to you.

    The totals you are so fond of don't show how much the characters are played. They merely show that one was rolled and in the case of the t2-4 stats that it was leveled. It's entirely possible, for example for some of those sorcs and BWs to be owned by the same player. Clearly, he or she can't be playing them both simultanseously, so at any given time, how do you know what this means for the breakdown of your RvR participants?

    In fact, if you apply what intelligence the stats do allow for, and give more weight to the higher tiers (because they have less likelihood of being discarded or infrequently played alts), you can see that in t4, there are more BWs IN TOTAL than Sorcs.

    My problem with what you are arguing is that you made a statement, which was simplistic and inconclusive, and since making it you have dismissed every single argument - not by addressing them, but by pompous posturing. I predict that any reply you make to this post will be more of the same.
     
  13. Aiteal

    Aiteal Can't get enough of FH

    Ahhh so we are gonna use the stats as the basis for the discussion now and not one time in a scenario stories.
    Excellent.

    If we can leave behind the idea that posting them has an alterior method of claiming that BW's aint OP'ed we'll be getting somewhere.

    Ok then, lets take your idea to it's logical conclusion
    The idea that the higher the char, the less likely it is to be discarded.

    Number of lvl40 Sorcs - 3,656
    Number of lvl40 BW's - 3,496

    A bigger gap than the Tier4 difference in both real numbers and percentage terms than the one you are talking about.

    Which goes to show that the figures can be manipulated based on whatever predicate the poster wishes to re-inforce their viewpoint.

    What cannot be manipulated is the cold hard fact that
    Number of Sorcs rolled > Number of BW's rolled

    All the suposition based on what an individual believes are the playing habits, current mood and seasonally adjusted jamrolls of the entire WaR playerbase does not change this.
     
  14. Theodoric

    Theodoric Fledgling Freddie

    Sorcs and BW could dish out good dps but they could/can also kill themselves whilst doing this .... what everyone fails to mention now is that whilst we can still kill ourselves our dps output is now no stronger than a SH,SW , Engi and yes Magus . Who i might add have the added advantages of longer range and no feedback........................how is this balancing ?
     
  15. ramathorn

    ramathorn Fledgling Freddie


    I dont mean to be ignorant, but this is complete bullshit. Its quite clear we arent going to see eye to eye here. This thread is about BW's not about every other class pairing. If you look in the WE thread, just a couple down you will see my opinion on them too. I'm not going to go in to it here because its now what the threads about, you are one of the most biased people I have seen on these forums and you are completely ignorant of 1) facts and 2) other peoples opinions.

    The problem with the class was (and to a certain extent still is) that they can do everything on the move, I think most people would have been happier had some of their more ott spells had a cast time added to them and they had left the crit rate as it was.

    Your "too much scenario play" is just attempted cheap shot which I wont even dignify with a response.
     
  16. Xandax

    Xandax Loyal Freddie

    Actually - it is very much about every other class pairing.
    Because if one pairing must be equal - all must be. If some pairings are allowed to be unequal - all don't have to be.
    And right now favor seems to be that all don't have to be, so BW and Sorcs don't have to either when WE and WH or Maurader and WL needs to be. Or even Knight vs. Chosen.

    I am extremely biased against other peoples opinions, I'll give you that, because they are just that - opinions. They are by the very definition subjective when not presented with factual evidence, and so I do not pay them much credit outside the scope of, well... subjective opinions.
    Facts are a vastly different story. You just can't present them by playing one class, look at the spell list and do comparison when the game in fact isn't a 1vs1 mirrored game. Facts in something such as this usually seem to (d)evolve down to "omg, class X did Y amount of damage while class A only did B). Thus - mostly formed randomly, due to the amount of factors and combined with the (subjectively and biased) opinion about how things should in fact be.
    Qua my former mentioned point.

    Yeah - Immolation was "easy" to play cause it was a mobile spec. Whether it is the problem or the problem comes from 5 people playing it dishing out the DOTs, that's an entirely different situation in itself.
    My subjective opinion (which you can then disregard as easily as I disregard others subjective opinion) is that the nerf cries were founded in the number of BWs playing and not the singular BW itself. And that leads to the problem with the game lying elsewhere. Something I hope the Knight class can balance out now.
    And franky - I have no problem with them fixing Detonate. Not one bit. I do however have an issue with them nerfing the critical chance for Sorcs and BWs alike, because I think the foundation for the nerf was wrong and caused by (some/many) people playing
    scenarios and basing their opinions on how the game should be from there.

    It might be a "cheap shot", but it doesn't make it false.
    Just take a bit of objective look at all the nerf cries which roams the forums and the vast majority of them will be founded in scenarios and damage scores (and occasional killing blow) from said. Scenarios which as it was launched, wasn't the main focus of the game, and scenarios which are random (class composition and levels comes to mind as random factors).
    So cheap shot or not....
     
  17. Boggy

    Boggy Fledgling Freddie

    Please quote my posts showing where I have given a one time anecdote about scenarios and where I have mentioned in any form at all any reference to whether BWs are OP'd.

    You won't be able to, because I have not done either of those things. That being the case, what the hell are you basing your argument on?

    If you want to respond to my points, by all means do so. However, at least please apprise yourself of what those points are before you take such pains to disagree with them.

    I can't help but wonder whether there is a connection between your habit of removing content when quoting and your complete lack of any idea what the points are you are responding to.

    As to your comments on the figures, they cannot be manipulated, but as you demonstrate yourself it is entirely possible to quote them as demonstrating something they do not show. Do the arithmetic again. The results you will find (use a calculator if you cannot do mental arithmetic are:

    Level 40:
    3656 So - 3496 BW = 160

    T4
    8587 BW - 8324 So = 263


    As you may notice, the second number is not in fact smaller than the first one as you claim, unless you'd like to include the meaning of "smaller" in the set of things you are now ignoring to try to make a point.

    Having said that, this is not a particularly useful argument. You are still trying to draw absolutes from a single set of simplistic figures. Whereas I suggested using weighting, which would need to be given some thought and be done intelligently, you've just looked for a single aspect you could potentially subvert as "evidence" for your original point, and started jumping up and down on it the same way you've been doing for the stats as a whole.

    The point is, these stats show nothing conclusive. They give a few simplistic figures that you're not able (and actually appear unwilling) to translate into meaningful commentary on gameplay.

    If you were using your head at all, the first blindingly obvious comment you might have made is that the margins shown in the stats between BWs and Sorcs, makes them fairly comparable. Both classes are the most widely played on their factions and both have a similar proportion of players when compared to the other classes.

    It's quite interesting that a similarity of proportion seems to extend across most of the mirrored classes. The only exception that jumps out at me (if I recall the mirrors correctly) is Marauder and White Lion, who have a 5% gap, the impact of which will be quite keenly felt because White Lions only have 6% in the first place.
     
  18. Boggy

    Boggy Fledgling Freddie

    I find it strange that you make these comments.

    Scenarios are no more random than zone RvR. At what point is any kind of clas distribution enforced within zone RvR? Scenarios, if anything are less random, because they at least equalise numbers of participants. Fixed groups can be used in both scens and zone.

    I also find it quite arrogant of you to place your definition of what the focus of WAR is. I would guess more player hours are being spent in scenarios than in zone RvR, which would suggest that for more people, the focus of the game (which is entertainment) is being realised more through scenarios than through zone RvR. Whether that is how you WANT it to be is not the point; it's how it is.

    I suspect that zone RvR will become more the focus as time goes by, as larger numbers of people hit the endgame. However, that's just me speculating and opinions today about how RvR plays need to be based in the facts of what IS happening, not what might happen.
     
  19. Pandemic

    Pandemic Fledgling Freddie

    I am an average player as a BW, neither good or bad. I will only ever play a BW until maybe the servants of the horned rat emerge from their tunnels.
    I am now currently reguarded as free renown kill by almost every destruction class and get laughed at after each time I am killed
     
  20. Xandax

    Xandax Loyal Freddie

    Sorry - not my definition. Call Mythic arrogant instead.
     
  21. Thatelf

    Thatelf Fledgling Freddie

    What goes around,come around.
     
  22. Aiteal

    Aiteal Can't get enough of FH

    nevermind
    too flamey ;)
     
  23. Roo Stercogburn

    Roo Stercogburn Resident Freddy

    Easy there, no need for that.

    I want to see BWs balanced. It will take a bit more time and more level headed analysis before it can be said if they've been over-nerfed or are where they should be and exactly what tweaks are needed if any. There's an element of having had it easier before which has been taken away and some are getting a rude awakening. This doesn't mean some of the stuff being posted by the people who play BWs isn't valid. Some of it I outright disagree with of course - there'd be no decent debate if we all agreed all the time ;)

    Previous to patch I felt my class was the free RP class of the game, its not a fun place to be. No matter what class people play we log in for similar reasons: to have fun and get some fights where preferably we win. I'm not sorry BWs got nerfed (I'm not able to say whether they were nerfed to the right degree) but I don't want the people who play them to be made miserable just because they played a class that was a bit too strong at the game's release.
     
  24. Cybwyn

    Cybwyn Fledgling Freddie

    Played my BW for the first time in RvR since the recent changes.

    Barely noticeable difference to be honest, don't see what the all the fuss is about.
     
  25. Theodoric

    Theodoric Fledgling Freddie

    I have no problem with the damage reduction to BWs .But what i am not happy about is the fact that we still take feedback damage when clearly there is no justification for that .
     
  26. Tallen

    Tallen Fledgling Freddie

    When and where did Mythic outline what the focus of this game is?

    They didn't because that would be idiotic and pigeonhole their game.

    This game is what it is, the focus is the game and the war effort, be that through scenarios, pvp, pq's or pve, it's never been specific.

    AND PLEASE FFS STOP EDITING POSTS!!! Christ, having to scroll back and find the persons unedited comments you are manipulating is annoying and often it screws the context of the entire post.
     
  27. Roo Stercogburn

    Roo Stercogburn Resident Freddy

    Tallen, I think there's a timer on FH, you've only got a few mins to edit a post. If I spot any grammar/spelling errors when I post I'm usually mashing the keys trying to get them fixed before the timer expires.

    I've seen the 'edit' game played with viciousness in the past, aye, its really annoying. The FH guys were aware of this type of baiting a long time ago and changed the way the forums work with that in mind, as far as I recall.
     
  28. Flimgoblin

    Flimgoblin It's my birthday today!

    You take less feedback damage since the patch.

    Also you (collectively meaning bws/sorcs btw) still do more dps than any other rdps class - noone else gets the 200% crit damage, or the crit chance.

    Is the backlash price now too high for the dps increase though? Too soon to say imo.
     
  29. TheBinarySurfer

    TheBinarySurfer Can't get enough of FH

    It isn't - it's yet more knee-jerk balancing from mythic.

    I wonder if anyone even playtested the new mechanics in anything other than PVE or against unhealed opponents?

    The changes to a lot of the classes feel like window dressing that actually make next to no different in some cases (AM for example), and in other cases they pretty much make the class a bright red firey RP pinata (BW).

    Sorry film but wrong on the more dps. The archer classes can equal me in dps now, without having to fuck around with a bugged mechanic (combustion drops when using a focus spell, making most focus spells very undesirable now with the new combustion cast mechanics) and take backlash. It's worth noting that said mechanic has been bugged since release, and if anything has become more buggy since the 1.6 patch (sometimes it starts to drop while i'm tab-spamming dots/dds at the rate of 1 per 2 secs or so).

    And yes, backlash damage is way too high. I could accept it before due to the great dps spikes.
     
  30. TheBinarySurfer

    TheBinarySurfer Can't get enough of FH

    By your own definition at the start of this thread, some people rolled the class because they liked the way they got to play.

    The class has changed drastically with this patch (not for the better either), necessitating a big change in playstyle to remain even remotely competitive.

    So i'm an FOTM power-gamer, because i stopped enjoying a class that now has to be played very differently to the one i rolled?
     

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