Boycot Rvr

[Glyph_mid]

Mana regen isnt the same as end regen?...

Anyways, kahland said something true, just make a good group instead of 4 random groups, and even with 4 random groups and you just play semi-mindless, 1fg is beatable, easily indeed. But when you do mindless zergtactics and you dont even try to put an efford into killing, you cant do it.

PE was a rvr guild and performed very well in rvr, but theres a lack of rvr guilds in albion, compared to mid, which leads back to the adds

And whitedragon, you might want to read up abit on the game, before pouring out of your funny knowledge

 

[old.windforce]

eeep my bad

 

[old.Jeriraa]

Originally posted by old.windforce
cons
wet tissue armor
1400-1500 hp fully buffed

Excuse me but the wet tissue armor is a myst...

Caster AF caps at (51*5 + 250 AF buff) * 10% absorb buff + 83 cleric AF buff (1.25*67) = 638

Thats the armor of a Midgard light tank! Healer has a max possible AF of 647. (102*5)* 27% absorb

 

[-naetha-]

Originally posted by old.Jeriraa
Well well, the grass is always greener on the other side...

1st of all: Healers get 1x spec points so they have to specialize like any other class (except maybe infis ). Hybrid spec is possible but hardly found in PvP. Its correct when you say an aug/mend healer can still cc but what you dont see is the amount of power the spells take when you have 1-8 pac. I can spreadheal thrice for every 2 stuns.

2nd: As you said Healers are a key class for Midgard groups. If you kill one you cause serious harm to the groups abilities. Why else would those gank groups run with at least 3 healers? The minimum for a half decent RvR group is 2 healers and a shaman.
1 mending/pac and 1 aug/mend Healer + the Shaman with aug/cave.
Now lets see what happens if you kill 1 of them...

* Mend/pac goes down: group looses cc, a serious amount of heals and the power regen - the other healer will be oop in no time.

* Aug/mend goes down: group looses baseline buffs, a good bit of heals and haste

* Shammie goes down: group looses spec buffs and end regen

As you can see the most harm is done when taking out the shaman first. If you then get the aug/mend healer you have stripped the group of almost all buffs. You dont have to kill the mend/pac healer at all... just disable him with a pet or something.

3rd - Survivabilty: NOTHING survives 3-4 tanks for more than a few seconds. I've been killed within the first 3 seconds of a fight by hib melee groups quite a few times and I have nearly 2k hit points when fully buffed! Yes, a healer can soak up immense amounts of damage through insta heals but they only buy you another 10 seconds.


Its right when you say groups with 3 or 4 healers are very tough but wouldnt groups with 3 clerics be that aswell?

Survivabilty: NOTHING survives 3-4 tanks for more than a few seconds. In optimised guild groups where we have 3 tanks (mercs and polearmsmen - most thrust) it takes a good 30 seconds to get a healer down, if we do at all - sure it'd only take a few seconds to kill if it just stood there, nobody else is healing it, you can get some nice positionals and it has no instas. Now give the healer an ounce of common sense - its permanently sprinting away/strafing so that you have to sprint after it yourself and hope that it runs out of end before you do (unlikely unless the shaman dies, or goes out of 1k range of end buff) or that you slowly catch up as it runs around in circles. By the time you catch up, you are usually out of end, unless your pally has resisted mezz/purged mezz, and is stuck on your arse twisting, so your damage is shit, making it even harder to kill the healer. Thats assuming that of the 3 healers there, you've managed to target the right one from the beginning, and haven't been prodding the pac healer who's smugly sprinting around thing 'my work here is done'. Don't make it out that healers aren't that tough to kill, because they're a fecking bastard to kill.

Meanwhile your tanks are assisting on the cleric(s). Clerics generally don't have as many HPs as healers, and can only use the same tank avoiding tactics as healers if your pally has resisted mezz/purged mezz, and is stuck on your arse twisting (sound familiar?) Tanks are doing approximately half as much damage again as Alb tanks (and don't deny this - my 2h axe skald (with 29 in axe and using a fairly fast axe) at level 43 hits for slightly more than my fully SC'd level 50 RR 4l5 50/50/31 specced merc using positionals). Mid end regen is a conc buff so is still on if the shaman is mezzed, and range is the same as pally end regen, so mid tanks usually have active end regen.

The first bit of the fight after the mezzes have been fired off are basically a race to kill eachothers' support classes. OK, now bring RAs into it - say both clerics have BoF, and don't fire it off at the same time. 30 seconds where tanks do little damage to anyone in the group (other than casters who die no matter what) so all tanks pile in with renewed vigour on the healer and/or shammy, if shammy is downed (again, unlikely with 3 healers free to heal it), the group drops all its spec buffs (which are usually yellow con - cleric spec buffs are usually blue unless they want to be a shite healer)and loses end regen so their advantage is reduced considerably. The group is usually already diseased, so there isn't really much point on PRing the shammy unless they want to rebuff the tanks with end regen. Next target - back to the healers - if the MA is fairly observant, you can sometimes find the mend healer, so if lucky (no instas, no heals from other healers) you can kill that one - group loses one main healer. Other healer PR's mend healer - main healer is now on full power, and 'forgotten about' by Alb tanks. It still takes a good 20-30 seconds to kill a healer that isn't afk the first time round, by which time the mid tanks are back on the cleric(s) and have usually killed it within about 10 seconds, again the second cleric can fire BoF (if it hasn't already been used/overwritten) and the whole pullaver is repeated. If you repeat that (even using no RAs) then there is no way the Albs can win, unless they are very lucky.

This isn't factoring the other classes that are usually in an optimised group.

Mincer - ablative that absorbs 70 damage every 6 seconds - is negligible in this kind of situation - its NOT like pbt where the entire blow is absorbed, making you miss the style. Mincer also has interrupts, if power is an issue, it can switch to power song if really necessary, (don't think I've ever seen that), can have a pet (also pretty rare as this means twisting speed and pet which is a ball ache), or can mezz - same mezz type as healer castable single line mezz (assuming you don't get the flute bug). I don't even bother adding ae mezz as its on a 5 second cast time and lasts ~10 seconds on non-determination classes. Mincer can also be a tank - hitting for 50~100 damage with styles.

Skald - damage add that adds an extra ~50 damage on 2h styles, and about 25 damage on each weapon of h2h/LA users. Heal song which is the same as the pally heal chant, but usable out of combat. DDs/snare/instamezz etc to interrupt. Mincers have the advantage at the moment with DDs, but this is being rectified in 1.65.

Assuming that Albs have 3 tanks, 1 pally for end regen, and 2 clerics, that leaves 1 space.

Sorc If you can find one, this provides castable mezz equivalent to the pac healer ae cast mezz - no instas, no stuns, although there is quickcast available on a 30 second timer. Also able to have pet which is great for interrupting healers if not mezzed. Also provides mana regen on a 10 minute buff - good as doesn't drop if sorc does, bad as needs to be recast every 10 minutes. Mezz resist chant - this is a real bonus if you can get it - its like all the classes having det 2 at least. Other than that, a sorceror's job is pretty much done - it can spend the rest of its time nuking with a pretty poor nuke until it runs out of power, and/or debuffing.

Theurg Again, if you can find one, you can either have 6 second pbt and unmezzable pets, or 10 second pbt, decent nukes (well, decent as caster nukes go in Dark Age of tankalot) and unmezzable stun pets. Pets last for 20 seconds, and cost 1/8th of a power bar to cast, each. Also get damage buffs (equivalent to skald DA) haste buffs (equivalent to aug healer conc buff) and the nicest looking epic in the game

Thats pretty much it for other classes you'd let in to an optimised group - there are other classes, but its really not worth it - you'd be better just getting another tank. Groups with 3 clerics are ok, but a bit of a waste of time - you just delay the inevitable - it takes 40 seconds to kill you all, instead of 30 seconds.

Overall, Mid always has the advantage, even with the "overpowered" BoF - obviously other RAs can come into it other than the ones already mentioned - paladin FH, shammy's ichor, SoS etc, but I don't see them as making as significant an impact as the basic make up, damage output and defensibility of the groups.

If you've been able to read this far into my post have a cigar - you'll probably class it as bullshit and not bother reading it, but hey, its important to me

omg longest post i've ever done!

 

[old.SadonTheGrey]

i love ur first post slo :>

NO LONGER RUN FULL GROUPS BUT ZERG THEM TO OBLIVION ^^

and i don't mean only 4 fg but at least 12 full groups. rps for everyone, 27 rps is better then none.

The ubergroups cannot function without fgs to prey on. fg vs fg is not fair if you run an optedgroup who is used to playing with each other. zerg!!!! pick a leader and listen to him. Kill anything with a small shield, they are the support classes

</irony stops here>

^^

 

[Glyph_mid]

If you use 30s to get a healer down you need to hand your tanks other weapons than trainer weapons

Or ask Faderullan how he does, because they take down healers in 5s, except you got a warrior guarding

 

[thewhitedragon]

nicely put neath - i think u've backup up my statement very nicely with all the info - VERY long post but covered almost everything i think - so unless some mid thinks that what she said is untrue - i think my whole point has been settled
- WE DONT HAVE A CHANCE !!!!

in quite simple words - if a Opt'd Alb grp cant even take a fotm grp what chance does the rest of us have !

 

[-naetha-]

Originally posted by Glyph_mid
If you use 30s to get a healer down you need to hand your tanks other weapons than trainer weapons

Or ask Faderullan how he does, because they take down healers in 5s, except you got a warrior guarding

Most of public enemies are rr8+ I'm talking about meeting enemies of equivalent RR, roughly RR4-7.

Alb damage sucks, there's no question about it, and mid damage is insane.

 

[Flesh]

Originally posted by -naetha-
If you've been able to read this far into my post have a cigar - you'll probably class it as bullshit and not bother reading it, but hey, its important to me

I read the first 2 lines, and last 3 lines of the post...does that count?

 

[Shike]

pally
mincer
sorc
cleric
cleric
merc
merc
merc

whats wrong with that group? You albs dont realize how good you actually have it tbh. Compare it to a similar hibgrp:

druid
druid
bard
warden
BM
BM
BM
Shieldhero

Ive been in many groups with the setup above and won vs mids plently of times. In my book the albgroup is better off tbh. 2xBoF and SoS and FH added to the AFchant, the speccAFbuff you have, the healprocc you have, the ablative song, light tanks in chain, endregen on a freaking platewearer etc... whine more and play less, mebbe it will improve then

 

[Balbor]

Originally posted by old.windforce
the adds make it impossible

ps. Balbor: end regen is on shaman

ps. Windforce: mana regen on Healer

i know that but thanks for pointing it out,

 

[hangianix]

Shike, FH is ~300 hp/member due to constant disease.

 

[old.mattshanes]

Originally posted by Shike
pally
mincer
sorc
cleric
cleric
merc
merc
merc

whats wrong with that group? You albs dont realize how good you actually have it tbh. Compare it to a similar hibgrp:

druid
druid
bard
warden
BM
BM
BM
Shieldhero

Ive been in many groups with the setup above and won vs mids plently of times. In my book the albgroup is better off tbh. 2xBoF and SoS and FH added to the AFchant, the speccAFbuff you have, the healprocc you have, the ablative song, light tanks in chain, endregen on a freaking platewearer etc... whine more and play less, mebbe it will improve then

Having played both set ups, alb one is very strong with ra's up but without hib one is better.

Though the end regen is worse :E

 

[Balbor]

Originally posted by old.Jeriraa
3rd - Survivabilty: NOTHING survives 3-4 tanks for more than a few seconds. I've been killed within the first 3 seconds of a fight by hib melee groups quite a few times and I have nearly 2k hit points when fully buffed! Yes, a healer can soak up immense amounts of damage through insta heals but they only buy you another 10 seconds.


Its right when you say groups with 3 or 4 healers are very tough but wouldnt groups with 3 clerics be that aswell?

i think you are forgetting that healers unique RA is an istent 100% rez. Healers are still very useful while on the move, clerics force to move about or under attack can only instent heal and sometime use a very pour BPAE mezz and PBDD.

If you look at a group with 3 clerics vs 2 healers and a Shamen.

3x Clerics: Healing, buffing, resists, BOF, pour DD and weak, short range stun, Heal procs (although not seen it make a huge difference).

2 x Healers + 1 Shamen: Healing, Buffing, Mana regen, Speed, End Reg, mezz, stun, AOE interupting, AOE disease, instent Rezing, remove mezz.
With speclines, Aoe Stun, Mezz and Root, and AOE DOT all resists.

ATM clerics unique live is very weak, while healers and shamens unique lines are as good, if not better than ture caster ones. Maybe whats needed to to make healers and shamens unique lines fall inline with smite when comparing it to true casters.

 

[case-rigantis]

albs cannot replicate the mid fotm group mainly because mercs don`t do enough damage to compensate for only 3 damage dealers

the next fotm in mid i`ll bet will be 3 2 hand warriors

think of it this way warrior is highest damage table in the game how could 3 mercs compare?

 

[old.Jeriraa]

30 seconds to take a healer down? Yes, been there seen it... gimps who dunno how to slam.

Experienced tanks slam and then use positionals... thing is they dont even go straight for you. They run past you, then use /stick to change course instantly and WHAM... no chance to kite or insta heal yourself.

I've had encounters were I have taken 400-700 dmg per tank and swing from positionals.


Anyways, I dont want to prove that healers perform worse than clerics or what ever. In my opinion its about how you play your character... support classes actualy need a skilled player to be effective.

What I try to prove wrong is the general Albion attitude: We dont have a chance anyway so we dont put up a fight.

Did you ever wonder why there havent been 4 healer, skald, 3 zerker groups before LA nerf? They would have been as devastating as Savage groups are now.
I tell you why: The tendency towards opted groups on Prywden was started by Albs. Namely Servants of the Lake with their killer caster group. Mids didnt give up - the SotL emblem was feared but did we stop going to Emain? Then Spiritmasters got PBAE and Mids started running their own caster heavy gank squads to counter SotL and SotL wannabe's... Midget Mafia to name one. No whines like now from Albs back then. Instead the started the melee heavy groups. Mids adapted and now you're outa ideas?
All you do now is saying we dont have a chance. Midgard is overpowered. RvR is no fun anymore.

RvR is not fg vs fg. Thats something you Albs came up with. It backfired but there is more than that: Whenever there's a big keep defense or take you see people posting how much fun they had there. Yet you you aint very active concerning keeps and you keep pointing out the "bad aspects" of RvR.
Albion has always suffered from bad morale. Even when you had the class advantages over us Midgard dominated this server. Do you try to raise the spirits? Nah, you're drowning your realm in self-compassion and envy on the few guilds who are able to field decent RvR groups.

You will never dominate with this attitude!

I urge you to be brave
be strong and face it
stand up and fight like a man

be a warmachine
warmachine
warmachine

don't let them grind you down
rise up and charge 'em
fight back and never give in

be a warmachine
warmachine
warmachine

warmachine
warmachine
warmachine

so hold on to your pride
be what you are and...
show them a warriors wrath

be a warmachine
warmachine
warmachine

(I used to spam that on TG raids and sometimes in RvR. )

 

[old.Jeriraa]

Originally posted by case-rigantis
the next fotm in mid i`ll bet will be 3 2 hand warriors

think of it this way warrior is highest damage table in the game how could 3 mercs compare?

Mercs have serious advantages over 2h warriors. If you dont see that you're blind. And btw I dont think it will be warriors. I actually hope Midgard will remember its old heros the Berzerks... they are still quite effective in a group even with the LA nerf.

I /leveld a savage yesterday to check out the class personaly and I have to admit its one sick killing machine... reminded me of pre-1.39 archers. But we all know what happend to archers.

The word is about, there's something evolving,
whatever may come, the world keeps revolving
They say the next big thing is here,
that the revolution's near,
but to me it seems quite clear
that it's all just a little bit of history repeating

 

[Danya]

I don't want to be a warmachine, I want to have fun. RvR isn't fun anymore.

 

[old.Jeriraa]

Originally posted by Danya
I don't want to be a warmachine, I want to have fun. RvR isn't fun anymore.

Proves my point, no?

 

[Danya]

You're the one who's bothered about albs going to RvR. I couldn't care less if the entire realm of albion quit daoc tomorrow.

 

[old.mattshanes]

Thrust merc does way more damage than a 2h warrior overall.

Providing they are using the haste effect and positionals they will hit very good damage, 2h hits like once every 4s on a warrior or so, a merc can hit 3 swings or so between that with decent damage.

Healers can only take 30secs to take down if no one slams, they all purge, healer mocs who you are hitting, it is guarded by a warrior or your tanks are not using the right weapons.

Many reasons, many excuses, several solutions.

Personally though in 1.64 albs will have easier time vs healers with the new selection of thrust weaps.

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.Jeriraa
Proves my point, no?

A few more thoughts on this. I don't know about you, but I play games to have fun with my friends, primarily (whether they be online or irl friends, or a mixture). So what if I'm not a warmachine, I'm not going to run off crying because I don't want to spend my time doing something I dislike just to beat someone I don't know on the internet.

"You will never dominate with this attitude!"
Oh no! I won't dominate, what shall I do... Oh I know, I'll get on with the rest of my fucking life and stop treating a game like it's the entire focus of my world. Yeah that sounds like a good idea.

 

[old.Jeriraa]

Originally posted by Danya
A few more thoughts on this. I don't know about you, but I play games to have fun with my friends, primarily (whether they be online or irl friends, or a mixture). So what if I'm not a warmachine, I'm not going to run off crying because I don't want to spend my time doing something I dislike just to beat someone I don't know on the internet.

"You will never dominate with this attitude!"
Oh no! I won't dominate, what shall I do... Oh I know, I'll get on with the rest of my fucking life and stop treating a game like it's the entire focus of my world. Yeah that sounds like a good idea.

Harsh words... maybe you've a slightly blured vision there? You seem a bit hypocrite to me.

You wanted to have fun with your friends. - Fine.
You dont find DAoC fun anymore and quitted. - Fine.
You're comming here telling others that they dont have a chance and should give up because you feel RvR isn't fun anymore? - Excuse me but thats a bit egocentric, no? When your favourite footy team cant win anymore do you tell everyone to get a new favourite? Imho you dont have any right to spoil the fun of other people playing a game you quitted! Not even if its only "potential fun".


PS: I'm sorry about your "fucking life".

 

[Shike]

Originally posted by old.Jeriraa
Harsh words... maybe you've a slightly blured vision there? You seem a bit hypocrite to me.

You wanted to have fun with your friends. - Fine.
You dont find DAoC fun anymore and quitted. - Fine.
You're comming here telling others that they dont have a chance and should give up because you feel RvR isn't fun anymore? - Excuse me but thats a bit egocentric, no? When your favourite footy team cant win anymore do you tell everyone to get a new favourite? Imho you dont have any right to spoil the fun of other people playing a game you quitted! Not even if its only "potential fun".


PS: I'm sorry about your "fucking life".

very harsch words too Jeriraa :[

Danya has every right to say what he thinks, even if you or me dont like it, thats the lovely thing with forums

one thing though, the negative attitude is bad, very bad, a positive spirit leads to more relaxed playing and in its turn into better playing aswell in my experience.

Hope you sort it out albs

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.Jeriraa
You're comming here telling others that they dont have a chance and should give up because you feel RvR isn't fun anymore? - Excuse me but thats a bit egocentric, no? When your favourite footy team cant win anymore do you tell everyone to get a new favourite? Imho you dont have any right to spoil the fun of other people playing a game you quitted! Not even if its only "potential fun".

Actually, if you check, I didn't tell anyone to do any such thing. Don't confuse me with the original thread poster. If other people are enjoying RvR, then they are welcome to carry on. That said, I don't think telling people everything is fine and they should just buckle under and put up with doing something they hate is any more appropriate than saying that we have no hope and should all just quit. So tell me, am I the hypocrite, or are you? Think about it.

As for my life, thanks, I'll give it your regards.

 

[old.Jeriraa]

Originally posted by Danya
I want to have fun. RvR isn't fun anymore.

Thats your personal experience and I give you that. But posting it in the context of this thread gives it the meaning I was refering to.

If you carefully read what I posted then you would know that I didnt ask the Albion players to ignore the current issues. I didnt say anything is fine. I myself strongly dislike savage gank groups and if my guild should ever start running with 3 healer/3 savage or even 4 healers I will quit playing my healer in RvR and go back to soloing with my Hunter.
What I tried to point out is that there are other activities in RvR than the race for RP's in Emain. Most of the Albs seem not to be aware of this or ignore it. Instead the come here and whine.

Originally posted by Shike
very harsch words too Jeriraa :[

Danya has every right to say what he thinks, even if you or me dont like it, thats the lovely thing with forums

one thing though, the negative attitude is bad, very bad, a positive spirit leads to more relaxed playing and in its turn into better playing aswell in my experience.

Hope you sort it out albs [/B]

Sure he has... call me oldstyle but I'm a fan of civilized arguments. Oh, where did I use harsh words? Refering to the PS? That was just an ironic qoute trying to give him a hint to keep it civilized.

 

[Danya]

I consider certain uses of profanity "civilised", I actually use a hell of a lot less on forums than irl.

As for the actual subject matter, I've been having a bit of a think about this today, and I think the real issue I have, and probably quite a few people isn't the lack of albion success in RvR, or the way midgard plays. It's a twofold thing - one thing which makes daoc crap for me is the number of people that have quit prior to this. When you're playing with your friends, you'll take a lot of shit and just carry on. When you're playing with random people you don't really feel any attachment to, you'll be very much more sensitive to things. This is in part where the respect for enemies comes in.
Also there's the not winning thing. Losing isn't bad per se - it's fun when you meet a challenge and it defeats you so you persevere and overcome it. Losing gets annoying and pisses people off when they don't learn anything from it though. Or if they know the obsticle is insurmountable. I think a lot of albs feel they have refined their tactics as much as they can given their level of skill, and that it's not enough. If you know you aren't learning anything and still can't win, then losing sucks. On the flip side there's always winning, this is where PvE comes in. In PvE most people have already overcome all the challenges, thus there's nothing to challenge them and they get bored. Thus, if you know you're not improving at RvR and you've already beaten all the PvE challenges, it's time to move on. I think a lot of people are at this stage now, and the volume of whines is just a backlash against this - you know you're pissed off, so you just latch on to a little thing that annoys you, like savages, and lash out rather than considering the bigger picture.

 

[leviathane]

alb rvr groups are so boring tbh, imo they get a cabby with ae disease and ns. 1caba, 1 pally, 1mins, 1 sorc, 2 cleric, 2 mercs.

 

[old.Morchaoron]

rvr is very boring... ive had enough of using the same setup again and again to fight the same fotm groups again and again and make it a 'who has RA's up wins' gamble, i wanna play my necro but thats IMPOSSIBLE (not cuz of savages for the paranoid midkids here) for any serious rvr since mythics devs are cheap noobs...

 

[Lomald Umilinn]

don't play prydwen crap server ... but just have to say i so fucking much agrree to the origina lposter, ,p

fighitng in albion is hardcroe, need 6 classes to get what mids get sdone with 4, hibs with 3. See any problems here? no you probably don't because of course you are so incredible fucking skllled abusing Zerker damage and now Savages which is so incredible bugged and overpowered and in no way balanced (light tank with tank ras ? joke).

But ofcourse you are so skillfull running with those 4 savages, 3 healers groups so you really should win the most skillfull players of the millenium awards.

Becuase you could never ever agree to the fact that savages are not even worth puting an efford in fighting it. but you don't know that because you dont get 3 styles with BoF up every run to emain.