avalon

[Kinetix]

<Sigh> Weve been through this. High populations are much much less sensitive to AC raiding. It's a bit daft to draw parallels between limors and dyvet. Limors is still in a place which duvet, and precluster server never reached even in their hayday.

Nice and fast escape route Crom. Shall we start with wich was born 1rst? The egg or the chicken? You blame CM for doing what they did. I blame low population for it.
Ofc your logic is different then mine.
ME- GOA/mythic-> NF+New OPclasses -> Lower pop -> Not enough ppl to defend at night-> even less pop
??You - CM relics raids -> Less population ->TTs action and suspension-> even less ppl??
You might look at it on different perspectives or do like most of ppl on this forum and not.

 

[Gear]

If I may:

GOA/mythic-> NF+New OPclasses -> Lower pop -> Not enough ppl to defend at night-> even less pop

The bold part is what really matters in this discussion. It was said again and again that there are not enough people, and CM still did their own thing.

Obviously there was some natural decrease of the population, wow did it's thing, what you mentioned as well. However, those were things outside our control.

When on the other hand it was said again and again that late night early morning raids will have a detrimental effect on the server, we were ignored by a minority of players that kept on doing their own things etc etc, things we talked about.

Kinetix, just face it man. Sorry but this is how it was.

 

[Kinetix]

If I may:



The bold part is what really matters in this discussion. It was said again and again that there are not enough people, and CM still did their own thing.

Obviously there was some natural decrease of the population, wow did it's thing, what you mentioned as well. However, those were things outside our control.

When on the other hand it was said again and again that late night early morning raids will have a detrimental effect on the server, we were ignored by a minority of players that kept on doing their own things etc etc, things we talked about.

Kinetix, just face it man. Sorry but this is how it was.

Well im not gonna discuss this matter because obviously you have one perspective and i have another. But i clean my hands of the AC raids, cause after the bitching in this forum i stoped doing them, so did most of CM.
Just because one or 2 members still did it more times dosent mean generalization should come into play

 

[aika]

whats the point to take keeps at night anyway, or even whats the point to take keeps at all, its so boring

 

[Kinetix]

whats the point to take keeps at night anyway, or even whats the point to take keeps at all, its so boring

Same point has smoking the rabbit hole i guess. If they arent runing for the shooting you make them run?:wub:

 

[Soulja_IA_]

Well im not gonna discuss this matter because obviously you have one perspective and i have another. But i clean my hands of the AC raids, cause after the bitching in this forum i stoped doing them, so did most of CM.
Just because one or 2 members still did it more times dosent mean generalization should come into play

ROFL Kinspastix gone into Ostrich Mode.

Put head in sand and pretend it never happened how original m8 yet only few months ago when there was a Relic Raid 1st poster was you telling everyone to set they AC as you were going to get Relics.

Yep wind you neck in m8 and just admit You were also part of griefing on this server.

Soulja

 

[Kinetix]

ROFL Kinspastix gone into Ostrich Mode.

Put head in sand and pretend it never happened how original m8 yet only few months ago when there was a Relic Raid 1st poster was you telling everyone to set they AC as you were going to get Relics.

Yep wind you neck in m8 and just admit You were also part of griefing on this server.

Soulja

Yes i said. But did i do it? No

Instead of that honorable hibs take relic and give it to the mids. Now thats what i find amusing.

 

[Soulja_IA_]

Yes i said. But did i do it? No

Instead of that honorable hibs take relic and give it to the mids. Now thats what i find amusing.

Same as back in OF when Mids dropped it by APK in emain DID anyone whinge over that Nope most found it amusing YET you threw teddy bear out pram spitting you dummy everywhere about it at the time YOU DIDN'T find it amusing DID YOU.

Then ask you self question why was it done ? Was it because of all crap that been going on it was detrimental to server I know the OF 1 was a pisstake at Albs by Mids to show that they could take a relic without resorting to AC.Still they never took the hint way back then.

All done in the SOTG


Soulja

 

[Arethir]

people agreed with my comments

Just to make it clear. I don't agree with all of your comments. I believe you overexagurate some of them quite alot. Like, if you'd say CM killed the server, solely, I'd say they were part of what killed it. If you get what I mean.

Anyhow, would be nice if you (Kinetix) didn't simply avoid the posts you don't feel like answering.

And as Gear said. (Have to spread rep around... :/) The alb crowd (we really gotta find a new word for this than CM I think) could of stopped what they were doing. They didn't. And if you tried to enforce them into stopping, you only provoked them to do it even more.

And yes, if you have an answer for my previous post it would be nice to see it. Instead of just passing by and then putting forth the same wrong arguements you have in the next of these threads. Because no matter how many times you say they didn't, CM still caused alot of players to leave this server. Because they chose to do so. And it's a fact. And I can not understand how you can argue against it, telling them you know better than them why they did what they did. I hope you see how provocative that is to those who did it.

 

[Golena]

So.. there's some people like Soulja_IA_ who won't accept at any point that it wasn't CM's fault because he's more interested in whining about a personal vendetta than actually seeing the problem, but i'm still far from convinced that CM is responsible for killing the server.

What made CM's playstyle unnaceptable was the low population, so the people without blinkers looking for the easy blame them over there approach might ask the question, so why did we have a low population in the first place.

I actually think there's a few reasons for this..
One of the obvious ones was GOA's complete and utter lack of advertising.
I still think the biggest problem with Dvyet tho was the utter unfriendliness of it for the newbie player.

Dyvet is the only server i've played upon where i've got verbally abused for trying to kill a member of the enemy realm. And it didn't matter if I was playing an RR5 uber soloer or a rogged out level 40 character. It's also the only server where finding a PUG when I didn't really know anyone was utterly impossible. There was also a large period where either you played with a good set group (so you knew 7 players who knew how to play and were on at the same time as you every night) or you had to solo (so you played a multiplayer game in single player mode) or you'd be shot down for zerging soloers (even if those soloers were standing next to another 6 soloers at the time).

If the reason CM's actions killed the server was purely down to not having enough population then why did all the people leave that meant there wasn't enough population, because at one point there was. And why wern't they replaced by new players (the kind I run into every single day on the US servers). Anyone tried to find someone who quit before the AC'ing became too often and too much and find out why they left? Once you've done that you'll find the real reason Dyvet died, and I think you'll find it probably wasn't CM that did it!
The person who pisses on a gravestone might not be pleasant, but he's not the reason the person buried in the dirt is considered dead.

 

[CorNokZ]

Why do we even discuss this anymore? We have been doing this for over a year and now neither of us seem to be playing the server anymore.. Dunno about Kinetix tho? You moved to Limors or still on Dyvet?

People seem to come here just to discuss..

 

[Arethir]

Have to agree with Golena on that! Well said! Have a rep.

I totally agree, GoA killed this game. They ran it into the dirt. And I'm sorry for flaming people for playing this game the way they would like to. I just some times get very angry when they totally deny that CM did anything that made people dislike or quit this game. Because I know alot of people who did do that.

Compared to what GoA did, CM is just a tiny tiny dent in the population. It would of gone down no matter what. But CM helped, even if only a little. And when we can't yell at GoA, we choose the player group that we feel caused the biggest loss of population on the server. And I guess it's not fair to do that. But as I said, when they totally deny any responsibility, and can't even admit that they did it even though it made alot of people really angry and upset, it gets me a little heated.

Esp when people like Kinetix brings up the same arguements again and again and again, and if you answer him, he just ignores it, and moves on to the next thread.

But hey, maybe it's time to let this server die. Along with it's boards.

 

[kirennia]

Esp when people like Kinetix brings up the same arguements again and again and again, and if you answer him, he just ignores it, and moves on to the next thread.

While I don't think it's just Kinetix, I do have to agree that a lot of people seem to do that. I keep on putting out decent answers to the questions only to have the people it was aimed at later reply, quoting others who were more 'flamey' and ignoring people who actually try to spark the conversation in a positive light.

The thing is, you know they either:

a)Completely agree and choose to ignore you as they can get more flame responce from others or

b)Disagree but can't find a real reason why hence they ignore you or

c)Have you on /ignore


Sorry Kinetix but it does seem as though you ignore people who put across a decent argument, purely to flame others.

 

[Zerubiel Propane]

Seriously people.. We all know that the most of FH is just random whiners/flamers.

But there is no reason to fuel the fire.. "Ignore my sig"

People who want to talk/discuss for real, should do so with other people like them, cuz its useless to have a conversation with people like ...... and ..... and ..... etc.

Personally, if someone flames me in the middle of a meaningfull conversation, i'm gonna put em on ignore, cuz it simply proves they are to childish talk to.

 

[Kinetix]

While I don't think it's just Kinetix, I do have to agree that a lot of people seem to do that. I keep on putting out decent answers to the questions only to have the people it was aimed at later reply, quoting others who were more 'flamey' and ignoring people who actually try to spark the conversation in a positive light.

The thing is, you know they either:

a)Completely agree and choose to ignore you as they can get more flame responce from others or

b)Disagree but can't find a real reason why hence they ignore you or

c)Have you on /ignore


Sorry Kinetix but it does seem as though you ignore people who put across a decent argument, purely to flame others.

Sorry but i cant reply to all posts Kirennia. Please tell me wich posts would that be and ill try to answer them asap.

 

[Raven]

Its not even worth trying to convince Kinetix that CMs actions sent the server to its grave (it was teetering before ofc) He is either to blind, stupid or stubborn to see it.


Its not even as if it matters now anyway

 

[Arethir]

if you have an answer for my previous post it would be nice to see it

Sorry but i cant reply to all posts Kirennia. Please tell me wich posts would that be and ill try to answer them asap.

c)Have you on /ignore

 

[Cromcruaich]

Nice and fast escape route Crom. Shall we start with wich was born 1rst? The egg or the chicken? You blame CM for doing what they did. I blame low population for it.
Ofc your logic is different then mine.
ME- GOA/mythic-> NF+New OPclasses -> Lower pop -> Not enough ppl to defend at night-> even less pop
??You - CM relics raids -> Less population ->TTs action and suspension-> even less ppl??
You might look at it on different perspectives or do like most of ppl on this forum and not.

You didnt read as fuckin usual. You frustrate me sometimes.

I've explicitly said that it was the low population that was the root cause. But CM arnt blameless because they should of had the sense to realise that the low population was inherantly more sensitive to their play style.

 

[Kinetix]

You didnt read as fuckin usual. You frustrate me sometimes.

I've explicitly said that it was the low population that was the root cause. But CM arnt blameless because they should of had the sense to realise that the low population was inherantly more sensitive to their play style.

Crom you mofo, i´ve looked back on your last 3 posts and i´ve not seen you say directly that. Ok my english aint perfect but i can read it clearly.
We did saw that it was causing impact on population, thats why we stoped the Relic raids. Now if you want to us to stop doing rvr just cause theres no defenders i think thats selfish aswell

 

[Cromcruaich]

Maybe not truly explicitly on this thread, but said it before. Specifically said that excal and pryd post and pre merge always had a low pop in comparison to Limors even today. And I certainly never said that that initial low population was ever down to CM but have argued that there was a period, about 1.5 to 1 year ago when they had a not insignificant detrimental effect.

:wub:

 

[Kinetix]

Maybe not truly explicitly on this thread, but said it before. Specifically said that excal and pryd post and pre merge always had a low pop in comparison to Limors even today. And I certainly never said that that initial low population was ever down to CM but have argued that there was a period, about 1.5 to 1 year ago when they had a not insignificant detrimental effect.

:wub:

ok we can agree on that

 

[Gear]

ok we can agree on that

It only took 14 pages and 200+ posts! New record

 

[Kinetix]

It only took 14 pages and 200+ posts! New record

What Crom said is different from what most of the ppl in this thread were saying

 

[Gear]

What Crom said is different from what most of the ppl in this thread were saying

What Crom did was to actually spell out what's been said many many times

 

[Golena]

What Crom did was to actually spell out what's been said many many times

The issue is probably that the people normally pointing it out have also blaimed CM for the third world war, cancer and global warming.
It's often hard to actually read the sensible part of the complaint when you mix it in with all the rest.

I actually think that through the course of the game most "groups" have caused people to leave, and as such are all just as guilty. CM through the AC'ing, the 8v8'ers through the griefing of adders (i'm going to put in the disclaimer that not all 8v8'ers did this, only a minority of them), the roleplayers zerging everything, horner, etc.

The reason CM get more grief than all the others is because the people they caused to leave are the ones currently still hanging round the boards, while most of the other groups have simply wandered away more silently.

 

[aika]

It only took 14 pages and 200+ posts! New record

and several previous threads

 

[kirennia]

Sorry but i cant reply to all posts Kirennia. Please tell me wich posts would that be and ill try to answer them asap.

I do have to say, although the people I'm defending don't like me anymore anyway for whatever reason, CM weren't the ones as a whole doing the late night raids towards the end. Okay a couple of members were present and just after our TT incident they went out of their way to take a relic at stupid o'clock, but they generally weren't the ones who went taking the relics in the early morning.

The few months leading upto the TT incident, they'd all but stopped, it was just a collection of people from different guilds who did it regularly and because a couple of their members were there and they had done it before, they were blamed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that those who did it in the morning are right, far from it, I'm just saying that 'CM' seems to have become an abbreviation for ...'Collective members' maybe instead of custodia...they just got blamed for it more and more, even when they stopped playing.


It's the people who carried on, even when the server was in dire straits that are partly to blame for the servers downfall along with GOAs alarmclock fanboy, requiel who acted on his own behalf doing something which is NOT GOAs policy. The problem was that when he'd inforced the ban for it, GOA had to as a whole stick up for him else risk loosing face...which they lost even more rapidly anyway. I say this not as a mud slinging thing, but purely because it was proven recently when Roaken was shown to say it was perfectly within the bounds of the SOTG/COC or whatever to set a relic keep to level 1.

Specifics of what happened aside, it was his action which left me and others feeling policed in ways which they shouldn't be in a role playing game. That's why we left the english server specifically in the knowledge that others had gotten away with similar actions on other servers and faced no punishment. It was unfair that he'd taken actions against us when we'd acted against the realm he was playing in. I'd still put money on it that if his guild or a guild within his own alliance had of done it, nothing would have been said.

I'd still quite frankly, never play a GOA server/game ever again on principle of how mind numbingly bad a hosting company they became over the english servers. Not just from this incident but from their history as a whole.

Slow language translations.
Basic XML problems which take months to fix.
Supporting GMs that make up rules.
Prydwen crash leaving people without items for months.
Stealing money from closed accounts.
The list just goes on and on.....

Personally I wish this debate would be sorted out into a constructive letter to games magazines, let them decide whether it's news worthy or not and then we can put the whole thing to bed. Okay so the cluster is dead and there is nothing we can now do about it other then warn others away from goa in the future.

We need to just let it rest.

 

[kirennia]

(i'm going to put in the disclaimer that not all 8v8'ers did this, only a minority of them),

Am glad you aded that bit in as I can't remember a single time we were directly rude to someone in game for adding on a fight or whatever unless they were rude to us first.

And I was never a saint, I just happened to never ever come across someone flaming me for adding. I've had pm's off of people before politely put but I've not once received abuse for adding on a fight or whatever. I'm not saying it didn't happen to other people, just that a lot of people who did get pm'ed responded 'lol FO, SOTG mates!!!1!!'. Surprisingly I've had more abuse (although still only very little) from the 'casuals' as they're known for random incidents, purely when I joined TT, even before the whole relic keep issue...

8vs8ers, for whatever reason seemed to get flamed even if they were just trying to mind their own business in a seperate zone on the server. Anyone remember when people complained at the agramon nights being set up saying it was against the CoC? Well people got their way and not long after the 8vs8ers pretty much all left bar a few groups, the server died. Read from that what you will


edit:Sorry, didn't mean that to sound like it was aimed at you Golena, I just got caught on a tangent and didn't stop

 

[Genedril]

Am glad you aded that bit in as I can't remember a single time we were directly rude to someone in game for adding on a fight or whatever unless they were rude to us first.

And I was never a saint, I just happened to never ever come across someone flaming me for adding. I've had pm's off of people before politely put but I've not once received abuse for adding on a fight or whatever. I'm not saying it didn't happen to other people, just that a lot of people who did get pm'ed responded 'lol FO, SOTG mates!!!1!!'. Surprisingly I've had more abuse (although still only very little) from the 'casuals' as they're known for random incidents, purely when I joined TT, even before the whole relic keep issue...

8vs8ers, for whatever reason seemed to get flamed even if they were just trying to mind their own business in a seperate zone on the server. Anyone remember when people complained at the agramon nights being set up saying it was against the CoC? Well people got their way and not long after the 8vs8ers pretty much all left bar a few groups, the server died. Read from that what you will


edit:Sorry, didn't mean that to sound like it was aimed at you Golena, I just got caught on a tangent and didn't stop

Big quote but I agree... Anyway,

I've said it before & I'll say it again: I had many more flames from people for not adding or taking keeps than I've had for adding in all my DAoC time. I think I was twice flamed in all my time FG'ing & soloing since before NF for adding on fights. Once was because the GG I was barding deigned to arrive at a tower that some other people had decided to camp (not taking lord so we had no idea who was in there) & another when we rear ended Maelstrom when they were in a fight - we tried to pull off & got more understanding from Mael on iRC than we did the hibs. Thems the breaks as they say.

While running solo (on a group spec'd hero, light eld or ranger) I got shot down in flames so many times for not 'helping out' that I stopped taking names (+ I've always been to lazy to keep an add on sight list or have anyone other than Treacle on my /ignore). However, this doesn't mean that all people who ran in zergs or trio's or whatever were all a bunch of abusive retards - there was proportionately rather more of them them than 8v8rs on the server & so therefore I'd expect to receive far more abuse from that crowd as that is what the law of averages would suggest.

What did happen is that those that preferred fg fights took to FH to protest for fairplay (& yes some got far too abusive) as this was their prefered playstyle. Despite popular opinion only one group of people could ever enforce their playstyle on anyone else and that was the people with a larger playerbase playstyle & the oppurtunity to overrun the people that wanted solo, trio, 8v8 & all in between. I'm not saying that coming here & being abusive was right, it's just what happened. Frustration may have been part of it, so may have been the "I'm great you have to zerg me" factor. Either way it happened & unlike other servers/clusters the UK never found a way to seperate the playstyles & keep everyone happy. As Kirennia pointed out those that tried to arrange fighting in zones for their preferred playstyles got questioned on the CoC & SotG (that mythical beast). When Gahn set up his solo zone he had a lot of agro here on FH & he went to great pains to ensure it was all above board with Req. The fg zone went through the same issues (though it was never as fluid as on the Avalon cluster & that may have been its downfall in the end - though that's another debate).

No one was blamesless on this cluster - FG's could have played the RW just a little bit more & keep that side fluid (I know that I got dragged into the fg/solo scene & left behind the whole RW scene I'd enjoyed back on Pryd); Zergs could have been more understanding of the fact that FG's actually enjoyed to fight even numbers (though if a fg ran into a zerg rather than ran away they deserved everything they got imo); & those that wanted to AC relics should have been more aware of the implications of their actions on a server with a low population (if you AC a realm that can't get them back then you're going to hack people off).

Waffle waffle & apologies to Gear - must get back to the whole communication thing again at some point, but felt it a tad contrived to re-earth it 4 days later .

 

[Golena]

Am glad you aded that bit in as I can't remember a single time we were directly rude to someone in game for adding on a fight or whatever unless they were rude to us first.

I think it's often slightly too easy to view abuse in the game as people yelling swear words. In many cases someone simply saying "nicely added" after a fight actually leaves a nastier feeling for a new player than getting a stream of abuse back where at least you can put it down to them simply being a foul mouthed idiot taking it too seriously (especially when it happens 80% of the time you attack something). Even if it didn't happen all the time in game, look at many of the FAO posts here and you'll see plenty of X is an adding mofo posts from many of the FG regulars. It's just as dishartning i'm sure to end a fun playing session, pop over here and find 12 people complaining you ruined their evening. I added the disclaimer in because i'm also aware that a large proportion of the 8v8 community didn't do it, in the same way that a large proportion of Albs have never stayed up until 4am to take a relic.

edit:Sorry, didn't mean that to sound like it was aimed at you Golena, I just got caught on a tangent and didn't stop

OMG you replied to my post and didn't say I was the most awesome person ever, rar rar rar, you evil bloodthirsty!!....... nasty things them tangents!