avalon

[Dard]

stuff.

You really should see someone about that chip on your shoulder, if your not careful you could turn into a Mr Potato Head.

 

[Cadelin]

why even bother, arethir?

If Arethir feels his arguments carry more weight when he attaches screenshots and posts links to other threads so much the better.


Maybe this example will clarify things for you Arethir.

A while ago some members of TT were caught cheating and banned. Now there were many people who would have had no idea what had happened if it hadn't been for FH. Did you find that certain parts of the community were more hostile towards you afterwards?

Of course maybe I need to prove to you that there were some threads on FH about it or will you believe me this time?

 

[Septina]

If Arethir feels his arguments carry more weight when he attaches screenshots and posts links to other threads so much the better.


Maybe this example will clarify things for you Arethir.

A while ago some members of TT were caught cheating and banned. Now there were many people who would have had no idea what had happened if it hadn't been for FH. Did you find that certain parts of the community were more hostile towards you afterwards?

Of course maybe I need to prove to you that there were some threads on FH about it or will you believe me this time?

Cheating, hahaha xD

 

[kirennia]

A while ago some members of TT were caught cheating and banned. Now there were many people who would have had no idea what had happened if it hadn't been for FH. Did you find that certain parts of the community were more hostile towards you afterwards?

Not gonna go through this properly again, only to say that what we did was completely within the bounds of the games, as Roaken has backed up before. It was only because Requiel abused his power that one of our members got a temporary ban.

Note the same incident has happened since and nothing was done about it, Requiel just didn't like TT for whatever reason.

 

[Golena]

Cheating, hahaha xD

Not gonna go through this properly again, only to say that what we did was completely within the bounds of the games, as Roaken has backed up before. It was only because Requiel abused his power that one of our members got a temporary ban.

Note the same incident has happened since and nothing was done about it, Requiel just didn't like TT for whatever reason.

I think you've both missed the point of his post there.
The point is TT technically did nothing wrong, yet large parts of the Albion community isolated them purely because of threads made on this forum. Nothing to do with knowing the people in game or the circumstances surrounding it. Simply having a Tedious Ten guild tag over your name was enough.
It's no different i'm sure for people strung up for being crap at playing their class on here. I know if I was forming groups and if someone who was looking for a group was flamed for being a useless <insert class here> the day before i'd be more likely to take the person standing next to them instead.
Most people who post regularly here are probably well known enough as good players in game that they don't have so much difficulty in getting groups. For many of the people who are simply standing around forest sauvage looking for a pug, a "your a crap skillless adder" post on here really could affect their chances of getting invited, since the group leader has no other information to judge their abilities on.

 

[Arethir]

I was about to leave the game due to the hostilities from arrgant assholes being on top of the food chain AND not living up to their own standards/principles for a few times.

You talking about Maelstrom and their fights with your group there right? The "Evita-zerg" whine etc etc.
Well, they whined at us a shitload aswell. And I've had some fights with them on FH, IRC etc. But it only made me want to beat them even more. Made me try harder and harder.
Though, I guess they whined a little differently at you and that group But when I ran with you guys (as I did some times as a rep), you always seemed to be careless about it and pretty much laughed them off. I never really had the impression they were putting you down (spirit-wise). Ofc I didn't run with you a whole lot of times, but anyways, it was some, and you always seemed to make a good laugh about the whole thing. Which was really something I liked alot about the group

For some reason a few players felt that need to show others that their playstyle is superior AND that they are superior at mastering their playstyle.

It's a game! It's competative! You want to be the best! (Atleast I do :X) Then again, I never made FAO threads. (That I can remember:S)

Maybe because they didn't feel the urge to make some really pathetic theads insulting people who they considered cannon fodder. They knew who was good and who not and they prefered to praise and memorize a good battle. If they slaughtered some noobs, they made a movie.

Dyvet = slagfest (Hey, I may suck, but you suck more! No, you suck more! No, you suck more! No, you suck more!) But really, I have yet to see anywhere people don't proclaim their position as the best. In any game. If it was like that in EVE, then all I can say is WOOOW, INSANE! But did you play the game long enough to discover they weren't rude ***** vs their worst enemies them to? Anyhow, my experience is that the victorious side will always do its best to get the message out to the community that they are indeed the best.

 

[kirennia]

I think you've both missed the point of his post there.

Got the point of it mate, just fed up with people mislabelling an injustice as 'cheating'. Pretty sure if you got into a fight which you didn't start and accidentally broke his nose, you wouldn't like being labelled as a 'criminal' for what you did as that just puts you in the same boat as all the people who did much worse then you. I know it's another RL relation but it fits for the time being

And as for being isolated, the only person who ever said anything about it in-game to me afterwards was Ironheart just when labby had been released. He died solo, our group didn't Got in plenty of groups whenever I logged on and there was a population, regardless of my tag. Then again, I suppose I never really went out of my way to ask for invites otherwise I may well of found the people who disliked us for what we did.

 

[CorNokZ]

Why do we still discuss Dyvet when non of us plays it? And who is Cadelin?

 

[Arethir]

A while ago some members of TT were caught cheating and banned.

Noone cheated. Nothing "wrong" was done, as the new GM have informed the community. Requiel made a decision because he personally felt that was the correct way to go.

Now there were many people who would have had no idea what had happened if it hadn't been for FH.

Yes they did. Luckily for me, Muylaetrix & co were kind enough to post links to screenshots they'd taken of guild and alliance chats, to proove to us that alot of the people on the server were against our actions. So yes, people DID get to know this very clearly, even without FH.

Did you find that certain parts of the community were more hostile towards you afterwards?

With the exception of Muylaetrix and a couple of his friends (and this ONLY on FH), no, I didn't notice any hostility. I got some pm's from people that agreed with what we did, and that saluted our actions, and said they would of done the same thing. Other than that, noone talked to me or bothered me with anything "hostility-wise".

Of course maybe I need to prove to you that there were some threads on FH about it or will you believe me this time?

Ofc I believe you. And no, you don't need to find these threads on FH. I don't expect you to find these posts and threads, as you have said there were alot of them. If you read through my posts (esp the last one I directed at you), you will notice that what I'm asking for is your opinion (if you have one) as to why you left. I've been asking you what excactly about these threads that made you leave. What was so horrible about them that you decided to quit. But as usual, the only answer you've given has been "because.".

 

[Cadelin]

Ofc I believe you. And no, you don't need to find these threads on FH. I don't expect you to find these posts and threads, as you have said there were alot of them. If you read through my posts (esp the last one I directed at you), you will notice that what I'm asking for is your opinion (if you have one) as to why you left. I've been asking you what excactly about these threads that made you leave. What was so horrible about them that you decided to quit. But as usual, the only answer you've given has been "because.".

Arethir I have explain before but you clearly missed it. The threads did not affect me directly, they changed other peoples attitudes towards me and some of the people I played with. It wouldn't have mattered if I had stopped reading FH because other people still did and they based their judgements on what they read on FH.

Please also remember that your personal experiences are not the same as mine. Not only did you have a regular guild group to RvR with but you also played on the realm with a significantly higher populations than the others.

 

[Arethir]

The threads did not affect me directly, they changed other peoples attitudes towards me and some of the people I played with.

Ok, so you posted some shit on FH. People didn't like it. So they didn't invite you to any more groups. Harsh crowd I can understand you quit then.

 

[aika]

There's always whine in any online game, always elitism and flame on forums.
I was a part of the UT iCTF community for a long time and the flaming and namecalling was much worse there than on FH.

It also had a sort of forum (Clanbase), with lots of daily whine about playstyles (camping, spawnkilling, defending with 4 etc).

It exists in any game, just get ovet it.

 

[Cromcruaich]

This is exactly why I have not been bothering to explain in detail. You don't know what people said to me ingame about things they had heard on FH. For all you know I might have been told: "I am not grouping with you because of that thread on FH" but I am not horner, I don't take a screenshot everytime someone sends me a PM. I can't remember exactly who said what to me ingame around a year ago and even if I did some people probably wouldn't be happy until I produced GOA servers logs and a sworn testmenant from all those involved.

I am supporting some of the things Golena said because it did reflect my personal experience. Choose to accept it or not but I know I am not going to change anybodies mind with more "evidence" or "proof".

You responded to a minor point here. But no matter. Its demonstrating that you didnt quit because of an fao thread, but a mix of in game exchanges combined with some unspecified board postings. That I consider a shift from the initial premise of:

>Dont know anyone who quit because of an fao thread
>I did

And the other point is that, you are one person - it by no means proves that fh whine threads had any significant effect on in game population. That was the initial drive. I shouldnt of got distracted arguing about a specific detail with one person.

 

[Cromcruaich]

You really fail as the protector of the wannabe leet players who think that they achieved something by running in a group of 8 and that it gave them the right to abuse others - "no one killed himself because of the abuse, so it was allright mates!" is just a piss poor argumentation.

I protect no one, I just try and give my opinion as I see it. Sometimes tongue in cheek, sometimes serious, sometimes wrong. Find your quote about achievement pointless so i'll skip over that. Please state your opinion clearly - are you saying that FH FAO threads were a significant contributer to population decline? Thats the crux.

It's quite funny to see the ones like you asking other groups who play for fun to "earn some proper respect" and defend the ones flaming the other groups by saying they didn't hurt anyone because no one left.

Please quote me on this. Ive made many posts where I have said that all peoples play styles should be respected. How many of those have you made? At times ive tried to encourage people to enter into full group play - because I believe they would enjoy it, and for the selfish reason they I would of liked to have more opponents to play against. I think a lot of people would recognise that from my posting history here.

For some reason a few players felt that need to show others that their playstyle is superior AND that they are superior at mastering their playstyle.

That being said I can only come to the conclusion that most of the guys posting that kind of FAO threads suffered from some serious inferiority complexes.

Not sure, cant comment on peoples reasons for FAO threads - most of them just seemed to be people pursuing vendettas and general baiting. Wouldnt read into it anything as deep as you are.

Maybe because they didn't feel the urge to make some really pathetic theads insulting people who they considered cannon fodder.

Have there really been that many 'cannon fodder' threads, CM have come in for a lot of stick - thats the main one I recall - otherwise seems to be tit for tat. Again I dont really have this impression that you seem to have that there is the overarching elite of players who have constantly whined on the rest of the population - all I get is quite a few people who have decided to fight like cat and dog via this forum - which amounts to a rather small subset of the actual in game players. I think you are over analysing.


Would be interested in seeing some of these old threads to support your argument - they sound like a good read, and it would be an opportunity for you to prove or support your words in this quoted post.

 

[Golena]

I've no doubt that other games contain just the same level of bickering and in fighting between the upper echilons of the particular game. I'm fairly sure that if you pop into any public counterstrike forum you'll find pages and pages of people slagging each other off. The big difference with these forums and FH is that you only need to go read them if you want to participate in the flamefest. You can happily log into the game and go about your business without ever going to a forum if you desire.
How many people do you know in game that have achieved ML10 without ever popping by here to see when the latest raid was being held? In fact most Alb raids, if you hadn't actually come here and read the raid rules before attending you'd actually get criticised for it.
TOA changed the forum from somewhere the competative people came to bitch at each other to somewhere every player dropped by at some time. In many ways that's the games fault for needing the resources of an external forum to actually get the information required to participate in the game across, but that's just the way it was.
It wasn't the ranting at each other on here that was the problem. It was that you could no more ignore posts on here and succeed at your ingame goals as you could ignore alliance chat. Which meant that when people did rant, everyone saw it, not only those who actually wanted to participate. I'm fairly sure that if the raid notifications had been hosted on a seperate site without the forum that all the ranting here would of had zero effect on population.

The truth is we'll probably never know what effect it actually had, since the people who left because of it are very unlikely to come here and post that. Look at the stream of abuse the one person who did is currently getting. I'm fairly sure that anyone who posted they left because of it, no matter how well they put their argument across, and i'm happy to admit the guy who tried did a fairly poor job of it, would of got a very similar response.

 

[Cromcruaich]

And manish, here is the long standing NFD alliance statement,
Alliance Guidlines if you are interested. Been around in the same flavour for a long time.

Hope it demonstrates that our guild and the NFD alliance recognised that everyone had the right to play the game as they wished. That goes beyond all this board clap trap, it was NFD's attitude to the game, as enacted within the game.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

And manish, here is the long standing NFD alliance statement,
Alliance Guidlines if you are interested. Been around in the same flavour for a long time.

Hope it demonstrates that our guild and the NFD alliance recognised that everyone had the right to play the game as they wished. That goes beyond all this board clap trap, it was NFD's attitude to the game, as enacted within the game.

I can get your fine policy from posts of the ones like Gahn and Jupiter. The policy is not worth the bits it has been written on like ALL policies of most of the groups/guilds that have been out there.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I can get your fine policy from posts of the ones like Gahn and Jupiter. The policy is not worth the bits it has been written on like ALL policies of most of the groups/guilds that have been out there.

Lol, you are laughable sometimes. Keep trying dont you? But C- try harder.

 

[aika]

I've no doubt that other games contain just the same level of bickering and in fighting between the upper echilons of the particular game. I'm fairly sure that if you pop into any public counterstrike forum you'll find pages and pages of people slagging each other off. The big difference with these forums and FH is that you only need to go read them if you want to participate in the flamefest. You can happily log into the game and go about your business without ever going to a forum if you desire.
How many people do you know in game that have achieved ML10 without ever popping by here to see when the latest raid was being held? In fact most Alb raids, if you hadn't actually come here and read the raid rules before attending you'd actually get criticised for it.
TOA changed the forum from somewhere the competative people came to bitch at each other to somewhere every player dropped by at some time. In many ways that's the games fault for needing the resources of an external forum to actually get the information required to participate in the game across, but that's just the way it was.
It wasn't the ranting at each other on here that was the problem. It was that you could no more ignore posts on here and succeed at your ingame goals as you could ignore alliance chat. Which meant that when people did rant, everyone saw it, not only those who actually wanted to participate. I'm fairly sure that if the raid notifications had been hosted on a seperate site without the forum that all the ranting here would of had zero effect on population.

The truth is we'll probably never know what effect it actually had, since the people who left because of it are very unlikely to come here and post that. Look at the stream of abuse the one person who did is currently getting. I'm fairly sure that anyone who posted they left because of it, no matter how well they put their argument across, and i'm happy to admit the guy who tried did a fairly poor job of it, would of got a very similar response.

You had to have an account on Clanbase if you wanted to participate in the ladder, if you wanted to arrange "wars" (Clan-Matches) it all went through Clanbase. And after every match there was usually a report of it to which ppl can respond, and basically everyone read it. Yet I didnt see any ppl leaving the game cause of it

The UT community is still alive, and its a game that was released in 1999.

 

[Collateral]

"Some of the better FG players on Dyvet and this particular forum section make the higest idiot density pro squaremeter of virtual place I have seen in a game so far."

hehe

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Lol, you are laughable sometimes. Keep trying dont you? But C- try harder.

I am not the one writing policies on toilet paper.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I am not the one writing policies on toilet paper.

D- I feel you are slipping and are failing to concentrating on your studies.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

You had to have an account on Clanbase if you wanted to participate in the ladder, if you wanted to arrange "wars" (Clan-Matches) it all went through Clanbase. And after every match there was usually a report of it to which ppl can respond, and basically everyone read it. Yet I didnt see any ppl leaving the game cause of it

The UT community is still alive, and its a game that was released in 1999.

I rarely read any of those reports and if I did, at least in the Ravenshield ladders it was "GG" or "we got owned" type comments most of the time and not "olol we pwned you noobs" or "we would have won when you useless scumbags didn't add and zerg us". I don't know how the UT clans played but at the Ravenshield ladders we never challenged low ranked clans, they did challenge us and no matter how the outcome was, they deserved some respect for the challenge at least.

Most of the PuGs or medicore groups from Albion I know never were really interested in fighting Maelstrom or OG, some of them often started to go to different zones. It doesn't take much empathy to figure out why, you know yourself how hard it is to keep a group of maybe 4-5 regulars and some pickups going versus the strong groups, most are not interested in chain losing.

There are those type of nice people like Bluesky and Crom who would encourage to come out again and have a fight, even if it wasn't so challenging for them to beat one and there are those type of people who I call assholes who would spoil it, not realising that it can be sometimes quite tiresome to keep a group going, by simply insulting others, even those who are not interested in fighting them.

Quite obvious to me what kind of people I prefer to play against.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

D- I feel you are slipping and are failing to concentrating on your studies.

Why write a policy if you are not going to enforce it? And, why write a policy if you are not going to give the same rights to your enemies?

How can you write "We hope everyone is tolerant enough to accept that some people like to pve, others love 8v8, some like to just sit on top of a bridge, god forbid, even some people like to run around in a zerg and take towers. We dont think its the place of an alliance to dictate peoples play style - its not what we're about." while asking CM for example "to earn proper" respect and do 8 versus 8 against your group?

Do I need to continue?

 

[Cromcruaich]

Why write a policy if you are not going to enforce it? And, why write a policy if you are not going to give the same rights to your enemies?

How can you write "We hope everyone is tolerant enough to accept that some people like to pve, others love 8v8, some like to just sit on top of a bridge, god forbid, even some people like to run around in a zerg and take towers. We dont think its the place of an alliance to dictate peoples play style - its not what we're about." while asking CM for example "to earn proper" respect and do 8 versus 8 against your group?

Do I need to continue?

You as usual are making the classic mistake of mixing up FH with in game. To my knowledge there are no instances of either Gahn or Jupi being abusive of people in game because of that persons playstyle - do you see how that is the important point? Also did you not read the first line - about operating within GoA's code of conduct?

The spirit, is that we wouldnt kick people out of the alliance for adding on fights, we wouldnt side between full groups and zergs and use alliance powers to enforce our own views. Everyone has a eight to free speech in whatever medium they choose opinions can be expressed, but as an alliance leader, we wouldnt enforce a playstyle on people.

Your problem in this is that when I wrote that down, and even now - it really was the way we ran the NFD alliance on Dyvet. So you can bluster all you want, I have the pious advantage of knowing its the truth of the matter, irrespective of how you choose to believe this wasnt in fact the case.

Go out there and find an instance of any of us taking action against someone because of personaly held views on how we/I like to play the game, and you might have some ground to argue on.

/shrug

I know it must be difficult for you to accept that people who have enjoyed full group can be tolerant of all play styles, but still be prepared to argue there point of view on a board, but there it is. By my actions I am judge, if you find them wanting then point it out.

But its ok Man, only yesterday on as I was defending you when other people were calling you a retard - maintain your just a forum warrior who enjoys a good argument, but sometimes you let the fun of the argument cloud the pursuit of where the truth lies. I'd still defend you, because you aint a retard, and I enjoy sparring on the forums. But in this, you will not get any joy, believe me.

NFD rests on reputation. Can you rest on yours?

 

[Arethir]

How many people do you know in game that have achieved ML10 without ever popping by here to see when the latest raid was being held? In fact most Alb raids, if you hadn't actually come here and read the raid rules before attending you'd actually get criticised for it.

I infact read FH for half a year, without ever noticing the RvR section. I just wasn't interested in reading it. If I wanted to do ML raids, I'd visit the alb section.

 

[Maeloch]

To me, all that document is saying is playstyle of /as guilds is up to them and no ones business. So no ones gonna get thrown for adding or not adding or relic defending or not relic defending or playing how they want it's a matter for them....but not that other peeps can't be critical. Keep that shit off /as and whine on FH instead - info exchange and mebbe social purposes only!

There's never been any guild policy on it either and being a large guild ofc had plenty of arguments in /gu about adding from peeps with polar opposite opinions on it. Once was one guildy who mainly to played alb and clearly went out his way to zerg down, add and get deathspam on NFD players and grps in particular (farming attention or FH post prolly) and he never got told off, soooo!

 

[Maeloch]

On topic: I think FH aggro clearly feeds back into the atmosphere in-game and times when there's been alot of it, general feeling between guilds and players in-has been very hostile.

Some peeps might decide not to bother playing anymore because of it as it's not very plesant or relaxing anymore, depends how sensitive to it you are.

I'll judge peeps according to the shit they post here anyhow, and treat em accordingly in game.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

You as usual are making the classic mistake of mixing up FH with in game.

Maybe you made one by making a policy for the game and ignoring it on the forums. Not particulary you, but you know what I mean.

The same behaviour in game as on FH would lead to a lot of banned accounts, some people behave in game differently just because of the risk of losing their accounts. Mythic did good on not allowing direct chat to enemy realm players to protect its customer base from eachother .

I value good policies, and yours is a good one but jester's licence for some of the people who are addressed by it on the forums which are used by the same people you play with/against is for me like a good cop who does criminal things in his spare time. It sounds just strange to me or to use the overused word, it's little hypocritical.

I had my fair share of whine at people who added/zerged as well but the level of some generalizing crusades on here is just tiresome.

Anyway, wub you and stuff.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Oh manisch, a little bird told me that you now have a char under the NFD alliance on Mid/Limors - is that correct?

*edit - just saw mans previous post.

What im trying to get across is that there is more tolerance in not getting involved in judgements on either side of the adding argument, than were we to of punished people for entering into communications with people about playstyle - I always considered that the CoC covered instances of abuse.

We didnt at a 'management' level take sides or get involved in arguments, though as individuals some of us held pretty strong views - this I think was quite different from the other rvr alliances, eclipse for example.

[To many edits]I 'd also defend peoples right to express themselves on the forums however they wished - that is a medium policed by the forum mods. We wouldnt ever of kicked anyone for whining on FH - otherwise we'd have no one left in the alliance

Its absolutely not hypocritical - being tolerant of peoples playstyles, doesnt mean you cannot comment on them, or argue the toss about them.

Anyhow, think everyone will now understand our position, and i'm very proud of it.