Asylum Seekers; Yay or Nay?

[Scouse]

Stop being all butthurt Raven.

it is the fact that it has happened that will make Germans less likely to be accepting of immigrants.

I think that, because of their history, most Germans are better educated than that.

I think, because of that, most German's thought processes won't go like this:

Oh dear, not exactly the best way to get yourselves accepted in one of the only countries willing (or at least previously willing) to help you out.

Assumption that Germans are knee-jerk arseholes much?

 

[Raven]

Then you don't know people very well...

There is already a growing voice of concern (rightfully or wrongly) regarding the amount of immigrants, add terrorist attacks in France and add mobs of shitbags raping and assaulting and the public's opinion starts to change...and is already changing.

 

[Scouse]

So, should it be changing? What should they be doing @Raven?

 

[Raven]

Should what be changing?

If you mean the public's opinion...then what? It doesn't matter whether it should be changing or not...but it is. I don't care enough, nor am I able to offer a solution but maybe if the the rapists did a little less raping it might be a good start.

 

[Scouse]

Lol. Way to give no answer...

Should the presence of a very tiny minority of bad people colour the opinions of the masses?

That's an easily answered question.

And once you've answered that, then it's easy to give your opinion on the second question. Because it's an opinion, is all...

 

[Raven]

No, probably not but what does that matter...it will colour their opinion.

But again, you are arguing a point nobody else is making, just so you can have an argument.

 

[Scouse]

No, probably not but what does that matter...it will colour their opinion.

Has it coloured yours? Or is it just stupid people who'd react that way?

I'm not having an argument for argument's sake. I'm interested in what you think - so I'm asking you directly. Don't be so defensive eh?


To be fair and open with my opinions - I think it's only stupid people who react that way. IMO intelligent people understand that the vast majority of people aren't like that. However, I'd concede that there are cultural issues that would make asylum seekers slightly more likely (though still highly unlikely) to commit crimes of that nature - and that those cultural issues receed with generations. I'm prepared to accept the small possibility of slightly increased crime as a cost of "doing the right thing" - i.e. helping desparate people in a desparate situation, the vast majority of whom are decent, honest, hardworking people.

 

[Bodhi]

The words Straw and Man are coming to mind here....

 

[Scouse]

The words Straw and Man are coming to mind here....

All I'm doing is asking questions. Raven has been vague in setting out his stall - I don't understand his position.

So in the interests of fairness I've set out my position clearly. You can call me out on it if you like. But I can't talk about Raven's because he won't set his out clearly.

What about you @Bodhi? What's your position? Care to put your cards on the table?

 

[Raven]

Has it coloured yours? Or is it just stupid people who'd react that way?

I'm not having an argument for argument's sake. I'm interested in what you think - so I'm asking you directly. Don't be so defensive eh?


To be fair and open with my opinions - I think it's only stupid people who react that way. IMO intelligent people understand that the vast majority of people aren't like that. However, I'd concede that there are cultural issues that would make asylum seekers slightly more likely (though still highly unlikely) to commit crimes of that nature - and that those cultural issues receed with generations. I'm prepared to accept the small possibility of slightly increased crime as a cost of "doing the right thing" - i.e. helping desparate people in a desparate situation, the vast majority of whom are decent, honest, hardworking people.

Nope, but I didn't offer my opinion one way or another. As stated numerous times. My personal opinion doesn't matter in the context of the post.

The masses are stupid, any crowd is.

I am sure you will twist this so you can be outraged but here goes.

The actions of a few should not effect the majority. Those found guilty should be sent packing, those who had nothing to do with it should be helped where possible.

So that's my opinion, feel free to enlighten me what difference that makes to the fact that the actions described in the article will lead to more people wanting rid of the refugees?

Like I said, you are trying to create an argument where there isn't one, just so you can have an argument.

 

[Bodhi]

My position is that I think Merkel has been a little bit silly in welcoming everyone with open arms, as a large amount of chancers and scumbags appear to have joined the march. Personally I think our approach in the UK has been spot on - go and get the refugees from the camps to ensure we get those most in need.

There is, however quite a lot of ill feeling building up in Germany towards the migrants (and Merkel) however, especially after the recent attacks (and the Cologne Mayor effectively blaming the victims and suggesting people cover up more in future).

So as ever, I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Closing the borders and turning everyone is bad, and we'd fail pretty badly on humanitarian grounds for that. However wide open borders and let everyone in is also bad, as with how shonky the EU's external border controls have been I suspect we've let a few undesireables in.

 

[Scouse]

The actions of a few should not effect the majority. Those found guilty should be sent packing, those who had nothing to do with it should be helped where possible.

So, you agree 100% with me. That's fine. Due process (criminal investigations).

I'm not looking for an argument. I'm trying to cut through all the butthurt bullshit on the forum. I think it's great that we agree...



Edit: Though I disagree with Bodhi. I think the answer is to let even more in rather than dial back, and I think the UK's response has been shamefully inadequate.

Edit edit: Actually, it's not "the answer". I don't think there is an easy answer to that (and I don't think we should be trying to find one). The "right thing to do", however, is to help as many people as possible...

 

[Deebs]

What about you @Bodhi? What's your position? Care to put your cards on the table?

I'll put my cards on the table.

Terrorists entering the EU as migrants.
Migrants entering the EU and committing crimes against the entity they are seeking help from.

No thanks, shut the fucking doors. The sooner the EU referendum comes up the better, I am sick to fucking death of EU bureaucracy over the past few decades and the immigrant crisis has just put the final nail in the coffin for me in how it has shown how shit the EU actually is. You can guess what I will be voting.

 

[Scouse]

That's a shame @Deebs. For every nasty twat there's going to be hundreds of poor desparate people who need help.

If it was the other way round, would you like your daughter to be given free entry to a country and help to survive atrocities, or would you rather they shut the doors on her because of fear that she may be a bit stabby, or a thief, or a bomber?

I mean, of course your daughter isn't a suicide bomber. But maybe she is. So I wouldn't let her in, just in case. Right?

 

[Deebs]

That's a shame @Deebs. For every nasty twat there's going to be hundreds of poor desparate people who need help.

If it was the other way round, would you like your daughter to be given free entry to a country and help to survive atrocities, or would you rather they shut the doors on her because of fear that she may be a bit stabby, or a thief, or a bomber?

I mean, of course your daughter isn't a suicide bomber. But maybe she is. So I wouldn't let her in, just in case. Right?

Much like the poor people in starving Africa who cannot get food/aid from charities etc due to warlords. I cannot help them as much as I cannot help the crisis of mass migration of humans into Europe. Nor can I help the oppressed people of North Korea etc. There are far too many similar events occurirng all around the world, this one is more in "your" face as it is on our doorstep.

The world is a fucked up place and there is no solution in sight all the while the western governments interfere including the UK.

Finally, with regard to my daughter, I would be the first to report her and/or deny her access. That would mean she failed my upbringing and didn't learn the values of right and wrong.

 

[Scouse]

Finally, with regard to my daughter, I would be the first to report her and/or deny her access. That would mean she failed my upbringing and didn't learn the values of right and wrong.

I meant would you be OK with someone denying your daughter access based solely on suspicion? Wouldn't you rather a country took a tiny gamble that she's a nice girl, well brought up and NOT a terrorist to save her life?


I find it saddening that you think we can't help. We may not be able to fix everything, but if we're not the sort of people who'd even try then we're a horrible people and should make way for someone else...

 

[Deebs]

I meant would you be OK with someone denying your daughter access based solely on suspicion? Wouldn't you rather a country took a tiny gamble that she's a nice girl, well brought up and NOT a terrorist to save her life?


I find it saddening that you think we can't help. We may not be able to fix everything, but if we're not the sort of people who'd even try then we're a horrible people and should make way for someone else...

Of course I wouldn't and I would have to live with that decision, much like I have to live with many new laws that have been introduced due to the actions of minorities in this country.

Why should we help the migrants and not others around the world who are suffering similar fates? We cannot help everyone everywhere, I repeat what I said earlier, this particular issue is in everyone's mind as it is on our doorstep. Unfortunately there is no easy solution to this worsening problem.

 

[Scouse]

Why should we help the migrants and not others around the world who are suffering similar fates? We cannot help everyone everywhere, I repeat what I said earlier, this particular issue is in everyone's mind as it is on our doorstep

We should help them because it's on our doorstep.

We do try to help people around the world, but you're right in many respects about that. But to say "we shouldn't bother helping these because someone else over there is suffering" is terribad logic.

We should help them because we're best placed to do so. And it's because helping those who are suffering, even at some personal cost, is absolutely the right thing to do.

 

[Deebs]

We should help them because it's on our doorstep.

We do try to help people around the world, but you're right in many respects about that. But to say "we shouldn't bother helping these because someone else over there is suffering" is terribad logic.

We should help them because we're best placed to do so. And it's because helping those who are suffering, even at some personal cost, is absolutely the right thing to do.

Um, how are we best placed to do this? We have no money, we have our own homeless, we have shitty infrastructure, we have shitty support services, we have shitty security services, we have no room for more inhabitants, I can go on and on. Get our own house in order first and then start looking further afield. We are not the superpower we used to be during the British Empire.

We already donate billions of taxpayer money to people around the world in an attempt to better their lives.

 

[Scouse]

We've got shitloads of money (in the hands of a very small elite), we've got loads of room, we've got world-class policing. Yadda yadda yadda,

Unless you believe what the press says. Look around you. England isn't falling apart at the seams.

If one of the richest countries on the world can't look after humans then our economic system is utterly broken. They could let another hundred thousand migrants in tomorrow and it'd affect our lives a tiny amount.

We can spend all that cash on keeping banks afloat but we can't spend a hundredth on saving people? Meh. It's there to be printed...

 

[Raven]

We should help them because it's on our doorstep.

We do try to help people around the world, but you're right in many respects about that. But to say "we shouldn't bother helping these because someone else over there is suffering" is terribad logic.

We should help them because we're best placed to do so. And it's because helping those who are suffering, even at some personal cost, is absolutely the right thing to do.

The trouble is, we aren't actually helping anyone. We keep throwing money at the third world but nothing ever changes, not really. There is no reason on earth why any African should ever be starving but plenty are because of internal warfare and the displacement of people. People can whitter on about how it is our fault that they insist on killing each other over stupid tribal disputes but then they don't have a clue what they are talking about, they were doing that long before we arrived on the scene.

Africa is the richest continent on earth for both natural resources and suitability for farming yet for the most part is a desolate shithole.

The rich countries of the middle east should be sorting out the middle east, not Europe, we should never have got involved in the first place.

 

[Scouse]

he rich countries of the middle east should be sorting out the middle east, not Europe,we should never have got involved in the first place.

We agree again.

But we DID get involved. And we've directly caused a lot of the problems so we've a share of the responsibility to clear it up.

But aside from all that - even if we didn't - if a desparate person turns up on your doorstep, you help them.

 

[Raven]

we've got loads of room

No we haven't. The infrastructure is buckling as it is, throw another several million at it and it will collapse.

We can't just keep building huge shitty nu-build estates all over the place without proper support networks, not just medical care, schools, roads etc but green places, not just for well being but (for example) flood plains.

 

[Scouse]

No we haven't. The infrastructure is buckling as it is, throw another several million at it and it will collapse.

We can't just keep building huge shitty nu-build estates all over the place without proper support networks, not just medical care, schools, roads etc but green places, not just for well being but (for example) flood plains.

So, build it?

There's room (we use about 7% of available land space in the UK as urban) and there's money (just in the wrong place, but we make it up anyway so just get on with it and fucking print some).

 

[Deebs]

We've got shitloads of money (in the hands of a very small elite), we've got loads of room, we've got world-class policing. Yadda yadda yadda,

Unless you believe what the press says. Look around you. England isn't falling apart at the seams.

If one of the richest countries on the world can't look after humans then our economic system is utterly broken. They could let another hundred thousand migrants in tomorrow and it'd affect our lives a tiny amount.

We can spend all that cash on keeping banks afloat but we can't spend a hundredth on saving people? Meh. It's there to be printed...

Um no, we lack police numbers, the NHS is fucked, the roads are fucked, we are not far off from begging EU for electricity, we have no houses.

 

[Deebs]

So, build it?

There's room (we use about 7% of available land space in the UK as urban) and there's money (just in the wrong place, but we make it up anyway so just get on with it and fucking print some).

Sure, let's turn the whole of the UK into Tokyo.

 

[Scouse]

Um no, we lack police numbers, the NHS is fucked, the roads are fucked, we are not far off from begging EU for electricity, we have no houses.

We lack police numbers yet crime is at record lows and we're one of the safest countries in the world, the NHS has been fucked since the 80's according to the privatisers, yet still treats millions, we've got plenty of 'leccy (and we should be working with our EU partners on that anyway) and we can easily build more housing stock but it'd probably mean a hit to the rich at some point.

So, what's actually happening is that we're filthy rich but won't slightly modify our economy for the greater good...

Sure, let's turn the whole of the UK into Tokyo.

For a few hundred thousand people?

Methinks you're jumping to extremes there...

 

[Deebs]

We lack police numbers yet crime is at record lows and we're one of the safest countries in the world, the NHS has been fucked since the 80's according to the privatisers, yet still treats millions, we've got plenty of 'leccy (and we should be working with our EU partners on that anyway) and we can easily build more housing stock but it'd probably mean a hit to the rich at some point.

So, what's actually happening is that we're filthy rich but won't slightly modify our economy for the greater good...


For a few hundred thousand people?

Methinks you're jumping to extremes there...

I disagree with you with regard to the state of the UK. Crime is low as most crimes are not being reported as there is no point as there are no police around to come take a statement. You only have to search forums (not news sites) to see people moaning like fuck about how shit our police service is.

Electricity? We have plenty? Why are we paying providers to keep the plants open until we can get more nuclear plants built?

Last time I checked my finances I am no where near filthy rich and my point is 99% of the population is in the same category as me with regard to finance, we are the ones that suffer.

So we let in a few hundred thousand and then shut the door? You would be the first to open it when the next 10 million arrive. Where do you draw the line. I made my point very clear in my first post. My stance will not change in this regardless of the dialogue you put forward. It is what it is.

 

[Scouse]

My stance will not change in this regardless of the dialogue you put forward.

Meh. I'd already pointed out that it'd take a rebalancing and agree with you that the money is held in the wrong place, but what's the point...

 

[Deebs]

Meh. I'd already pointed out that it'd take a rebalancing and agree with you that the money is held in the wrong place, but what's the point...

Oh come on, you know that will never happen in a million lifetimes without an Earth reset taking place.