Asylum Seekers; Yay or Nay?

Should we be a lot more lenient on asylum seekers from the Middle East?

  • Yay

    Votes: 24 58.5%
  • Nay

    Votes: 12 29.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 5 12.2%

  • Total voters
    41

Hawkwind

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Crazy situation and EU is baring the brunt of the exodus whilst the rich Gulf and Arab nations do nothing to assist. The UAE has pretty much stopped all VISA from Syria and the Lebanon. Even Syrian's that have been living here for years are finding it difficult. Guy at work (French Algerian decent, with Fr passport) is married to a Syrian, he got phoned by HSBC to tell him that they have to close his accounts due to security concerns! He argued for week with them then finally moved the accounts to a local bank (NDB). Workers at the airports are not getting their work visa's renewed if they are from certain countries. Crazy situation! But does that get noticed by the news networks?

Most of the people at the borders are not asylum worthy but still it is a massive task to start sorting them out. I'd hope that they would start processing families and women with children as a priority. All the young men you see can wait.

See lots of African and Indian/Pakistani men there. Was watching Sky News on Friday when the reporter was detailing the horror of the situation and pointed out a group of around 60 young men sitting together, asking where they came from one answered, "Lahore!". The reporter seemed dumb stuck for a second or two and rather than talk further to them he moved on to a young Syrian women with a 4-5 year old girl.

Seems to me that the figures of 80/20 economic vs asylum worth is about right. EU needs to act humanly but firmly rejecting those clearly there for reasons other than escaping the atrocities in Syria etc.
 

Raven

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Yup, the economic migrants can be shipped back sharpish. There is only so many we can take, I would rather they were people that actually had to move away from home.
 

Trem

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It's starting to feel more sinister by the day, no it's starting to feel like it's losing something by the day. Losing steam or conviction. I think the fact that the mix of people in these groups is not just the one's from war torn parts of the world has slapped a few people in the face. The BBC had an upset Syrian guy on who couldn't find anywhere that had a sim card for his phone so he could ring his wife and children that he left at home.......I could not see the sympathy angle in that fucking story.

The BBC also had a piece on a woman called Cynthia Double-Barrell who was all smiley and smug and lived in a nice house and she had started an online thing where people willing to offer a Syrian family somewhere to live could sign, 4.8k people had signed this thing and she was all hardy hardy ha and happy because that is awesome and look, LOOK HOW GRACIOUS WE ARE! Why doesn't she take her buck toothed face outside and give a tramp somewhere to live? I'll tell you the fuck why, because that wouldn't of got her on the BBC and because Geldof didn't mention the tramps and in her mind the tramp will rape her and shit on her carpet but the Syrian refugee's will bow to her for evermore and they will build a statue in her honour and possibly write a new holy book. Fucking idiots living in skippy happy dream land. I hope she gives a room to the Syrian version of the West family :eek:
 

Scouse

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You know what. I don't give two fucks if migrants want to come to rich parts of the world looking for work.

Good on 'em. Let 'em all in.

We've got the cash and space in the west to support as many who want to come. Just rebalance our economies and job done.
 

Trem

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You know what. I don't give two fucks if migrants want to come to rich parts of the world looking for work.

Good on 'em. Let 'em all in.

We've got the cash and space in the west to support as many who want to come. Just rebalance our economies and job done.
Let them say that though chum, let them say "we are coming here for work" and not use the other reasons. That is the point here. Oh, and don't do it in a way which end's up with kids dying because you chucked them on a fucking rowing boat.
 

Scouse

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Let them say that though chum, let them say "we are coming here for work" and not use the other reasons
Let them say whatever they feel they have to say to get here in the face of press headlines that show an outraged public.

We're all better off than all of them, yet they're identical animals to us. Whatever they do to get here and for whatever reason is fair game in my book.



Edit: As for kids dying, they won't take risks lightly. And, frankly, people are the same level of stupid the world over - if British peoples lot was the same as theirs then we'd be doing exactly the same sort of retarded thing.
 

Trem

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Let them say whatever they feel they have to say to get here in the face of press headlines that show an outraged public.

We're all better off than all of them, yet they're identical animals to us. Whatever they do to get here and for whatever reason is fair game in my book.
No it isn't, not when they are letting their children die because of that risk. They could do it properly, or at least safer. Dead kids isn't fair game.
 

Scouse

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No it isn't, not when they are letting their children die because of that risk. They could do it properly, or at least safer. Dead kids isn't fair game.

Yep. It is. We'd do exactly the same thing in their situation.

Those are the stakes they're playing with. And we sit and moralise from our cushy lives in the priviledged west.
 

Gwadien

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How many said they'd move if Ukip got into power? What a pathetic reason for another nation to accepy you
 

DaGaffer

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It's starting to feel more sinister by the day, no it's starting to feel like it's losing something by the day. Losing steam or conviction. I think the fact that the mix of people in these groups is not just the one's from war torn parts of the world has slapped a few people in the face. The BBC had an upset Syrian guy on who couldn't find anywhere that had a sim card for his phone so he could ring his wife and children that he left at home.......I could not see the sympathy angle in that fucking story.

The BBC also had a piece on a woman called Cynthia Double-Barrell who was all smiley and smug and lived in a nice house and she had started an online thing where people willing to offer a Syrian family somewhere to live could sign, 4.8k people had signed this thing and she was all hardy hardy ha and happy because that is awesome and look, LOOK HOW GRACIOUS WE ARE! Why doesn't she take her buck toothed face outside and give a tramp somewhere to live? I'll tell you the fuck why, because that wouldn't of got her on the BBC and because Geldof didn't mention the tramps and in her mind the tramp will rape her and shit on her carpet but the Syrian refugee's will bow to her for evermore and they will build a statue in her honour and possibly write a new holy book. Fucking idiots living in skippy happy dream land. I hope she gives a room to the Syrian version of the West family :eek:

We covered that earlier. Tramps have plenty of options already, and no-one's trying to blow them up.
 

Trem

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We covered that earlier. Tramps have plenty of options already, and no-one's trying to blow them up.
I know we covered that earlier but the point is still valid. Where was Cynthia before Geldof opened his mouth and where was she in previous wars? Why are other countries needy more needy than ours?

I give up.
 

Raven

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"The trouble with tramps" is that in many cases there are loads of other issues too, alcohol, drugs, mental health issues etc and short of putting a tracker on them or going round with a van to round them up there isn't a massive amount anyone can do. There are plenty of systems in place to catch them but if they actively avoid them then sadly, they only have themselves to blame. I am sick and tired of those stupid facebook photos of some hobo claiming to be an ex-serviceman, no family, no home etc. Go and seek help you feckless ballbag, there is plenty available.

As for economic migrants coming over, I have no issue with someone wanting to move to a better country but I do have a problem with them taking resources from people who's house just got blown up and taking advantage of others desperate situation. Realistically we cannot save an infinite amount of people, house them, feed them, look after them etc so non refugees should be fucked off quickly to allow for people who have nothing.
 

Gumbo

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We've got the cash and space in the west to support as many who want to come. Just rebalance our economies and job done.

Richard Herring mentioned this the other day on a podcast, I didn't see his working, but it boiled down to the equality thing. Having looked into it, he said roughly that if all the people in the world were equal we would all live in a home worth £2,000 and have an income of £200 per year.

I'm not sure how that would work. And once you've used a tenner of your £200 to replace a window in your £2k house and the builder has the tenner in his pocket, it's no longer equal, so what do we do? does everything reset every friday at 4pm?
 

DaGaffer

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Richard Herring mentioned this the other day on a podcast, I didn't see his working, but it boiled down to the equality thing. Having looked into it, he said roughly that if all the people in the world were equal we would all live in a home worth £2,000 and have an income of £200 per year.

I'm not sure how that would work. And once you've used a tenner of your £200 to replace a window in your £2k house and the builder has the tenner in his pocket, it's no longer equal, so what do we do? does everything reset every friday at 4pm?

Since true income equality would of necessity entirely destroy capitalism, the numbers are actually irrelevant, because money would be irrelevant. Which is end-stage Marxist theory. Which is of course nonsense. Even if we all lived in identical boxes nominally of the same value, they wouldn't actually be of the same value, because of their location. Equality is an illusion; all you can really hope for is to raise general living standards, which has actually been happening around the world for quite some time (e.g. China).

People get irate about concentration of wealth into the hands of a tiny minority, which is valid, but they also ignore the percentage of global population that have actually moved out of poverty in the last 30 years. What we're seei.ng is kind of three forces going on in parallel:
1. income inequality is increasing inside countries, primarily in the developed world (but incomes overall are still rising)
2. Income inequality is decreasing between the developed world and the BRICs, which account for most of the bulk of global population
3. A basket case group of countries are seeing their GDPs rise, but none of it is reaching its population (e.g. large chunks of Africa exploiting mineral rights for a tiny local elite)

So yes a few hyper-rich bastards are hoarding a lot of the money, but billions are still better off than their parents' were, and African leaders are the worst.
 

Scouse

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I'm not sure how that would work. And once you've used a tenner of your £200 to replace a window in your £2k house and the builder has the tenner in his pocket, it's no longer equal, so what do we do? does everything reset every friday at 4pm?
Why are people so black and white in their thinking.

We don't need people on £50 / year and some people on £1,000,000,000 a year. But they also don't have to be worth the same either.

Re-balance. Not trash and burn.


So yes a few hyper-rich bastards are hoarding a lot of the money, but billions are still better off than their parents' were.

This.

So we deal with the hyper-rich and rebalance that way. The mearly wealthy ain't the issue.
 

Gumbo

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I just don't get how you do that though, and who makes the determination of the cut off?

And what do we do with the money we take from the hyper rich? Do we give it straight to the poorest, or do the middle incomers get a bit too, because if the poorest suddenly have more money then prices will rise which means if I don't get a bit more I'll suddenly be that much poorer too.
 

Job

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Slovekia win't take any refugees, no doubt because they have a good history of despising backward muslims leeching off their society, can't imagine a single muslim would want to go there anyway, seeing as what happens around there.
 

Scouse

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You're getting pissy at other people's facepalms now?

I just can't be arsed. There's so many things in that post that you could write all day. And for what?
 

DaGaffer

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Slovekia win't take any refugees, no doubt because they have a good history of despising backward muslims leeching off their society, can't imagine a single muslim would want to go there anyway, seeing as what happens around there.

Where's "Slovekia"? Do you mean Slovenia, or Slovakia?
 

DaGaffer

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I just don't get how you do that though, and who makes the determination of the cut off?

And what do we do with the money we take from the hyper rich? Do we give it straight to the poorest, or do the middle incomers get a bit too, because if the poorest suddenly have more money then prices will rise which means if I don't get a bit more I'll suddenly be that much poorer too.

Scouse would advocate income caps. I don't think that will ever work (because, lots of reasons). My personal view is the only thing that even has a prayer is a complete restructuring of tax, but this would have to start in the US and UK (in the US because that's where the billionaires and worst tax-avoiding corporates are, and in the UK because that's where their money is, in UK offshores). Unfortunately turkeys don't vote for Christmas, and so long as every American thinks they'll be Donald Trump one day, progressive taxation is electoral poison.
 

Moriath

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You're getting pissy at other people's facepalms now?

I just can't be arsed. There's so many things in that post that you could write all day. And for what?
Not getting pissy just think its poor form to facepalm without an explanation of why.
 

Moriath

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Yes ofcourse you dont think its poor form cause you do it @Scouse.

Anyway there probably wouldnt be enough resources for the whole globe to live as the west currently does withput exhausting them.

Then money would be meaningless to some extent.

Unless your goingto cap living standards to a sustainable, ecologically maintainable level. Which no one in the west is ever goingto vote for. So while we are in a capitalist democracy that requires growth and spending to keep going its never going to happen.

As @DaGaffer says the best we can do is try and raise as many out of poverty as possible. By trading and investing in poorer nations.

I always hated the fact you cant travel freely around the world and have to go through so much red tape to move countries. But it just wouldnt work for the encumberants if the whole of the poor in india moved to europe for better conditions for example.
 

Gwadien

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I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
 

Gumbo

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It's just another example, which we've had 1000 times of Scouse saying REBALANCE! Take it from the hyper rich! And then not following through with any detail whatsoever. At all. None. No concrete suggestions, no figures, no idea of how it could ever be made to work.

Just a toddler strop of saying that we're all too stupid to understand.

I can respect an opinion that can't survive the first challenge or scrutiny and is not defended.

Sorry, I just can't.
 

Job

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Only one so far, but we can hope, if after five years you're still wearing MC Hammer pants, a skull cap and beating up your sister if she dates a westerner, then fuk off home.
 

Lakih

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I always hated the fact you cant travel freely around the world and have to go through so much red tape to move countries. But it just wouldnt work for the encumberants if the whole of the poor in india moved to europe for better conditions for example.
I don't mind having friends visiting, but if they want to move in they better have their shit together and/or give me sexy-time. :)


As for wealth redistribution, I agree with @Scouse it's the way forward. As for a specific solution - Taxes. We don't have to change the world over night, thinking that is just naive. Start with putting pressure on "tax paradises", Cayman islands, Lichtenstein, Bahamas, etc. Give corporate's less incentive to move headquarters somewhere offshore to avoid rules and regulation. Tax companies from where their principal income is earned (On a much broader and aggressive scale then it is today). High-income tax for corporations AND individuals. For individuals it's less a problem as laws and bureaucracy is usually less thorny, but for corporates it can be tough. There are plenty of insanely rich companies here in the US that pay little or no tax, at all. That IMO should stop.

No parachutes for CEO's or bailout for banks etc. If I do a piss poor job and get fired I'm not getting millions (or to use a proper scale, thousands, or hundreds) as a get better soon parting gift. If my small company do bad business decisions or have employees steal from it so it goes bankrupt, the government wont give me a couple of hundred thousands so I can have another try. Yes some companies fill a bigger role then others, we've put ourselves in a position where we need banks more then they need us, but enough is enough.

Wealth distribution between countries have to come at a slower pace, clean up your own garden first and all that crap. But, when you got your own shit together and are looking to invest in developing countries it needs to be done with respect of that country, it's people, and with a goal of not only give you a piece of the cake, but to make sure that they get at least an equal size piece.
 

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