Asylum Seekers; Yay or Nay?

[DaGaffer]

Having children is a choice, most times. Planned and budgetted for, if you are responsible. If you want a career and children then you have to pay for it. The carers need to make moneyto live on too.

Its not necessary that both parents work. Its a choice that you make and budget for. If your pay doesnt allow it then you cant do it. So choose children or career.

Wah its not fair i want everything. Lifes not fair.

I have two step children 21 and 16. And part of what i earn goes to them even though they dont live with us full time.

No, you're looking at it the wrong way around. If a society spends x hundred thousand on putting a woman through college, training her in a career etc. and then makes it economically unviable for that woman to work after children, not only is the woman losing out, but so is the society that invested in her in the first place. Its a bad use of economic resources. At the less skilled level, paying a woman to stay at home and look after her kids, even in poor provision economies like the UK's, is more expensive overall than paying 3-4 people to look after 20 kids, allowing those women to go back to work.

Fatuous "well, you should have thought of that before you had kids" arguments are irrelevant at a societal and economic level. People will have kids anyway, and it makes sense to minimise the economic fallout from that for society as a whole. (NB. In our case we did think about that before we had kids, and then my wife got made redundant while she was pregnant with our youngest).

 

[Ormorof]

The problem with that attitude, especially in western europe is our aging economy

We should be hell bent on encouraging well educated middle classes to breed more to ensure theres enough people paying taxes in the future to keep us on pensions

But instead we seem to be hell bent on punishing people who work and have kids

 

[Gwadien]

The problem with that attitude, especially in western europe is our aging economy

We should be hell bent on encouraging well educated middle classes to breed more to ensure theres enough people paying taxes in the future to keep us on pensions

But instead we seem to be hell bent on punishing people who work and have kids

Alternatively we remove the quite obvious attempt to keep education elitist and have more intelligent working classes

 

[Raven]

That starts early. A shocking amount of children starting school have never read anything in their life. Holding back the others.

Shit parents need to be educated as to how to bring up a child too.

 

[Talivar]

The services that are designed to help that are all getting cut

 

[Trem]

The services that are designed to help that are all getting cut

Good, a fucking service to teach parents on how to not be a cunt?

Ridiculous.

 

[Raven]

People shouldn't rely on the state to provide basic education for children. A child should be prepared for education by its parents. Basic reading, writing and numeracy should be taught from a young age, by the parents.

 

[Talivar]

Yes they should but they dont and so they cost you all a fortune and then everyone whines its a joke, but fact is it still costs us all a fortune lol

 

[Gwadien]

Good, a fucking service to teach parents on how to not be a cunt?

Ridiculous.

I don't think you get it.

Families inherently don't have the values and morals to teach their children, and the community which used to slap the scumbags kids when they fucked about has now gone, and they're in prison.

Education from the State is the ONLY thing that can replace it - either through educating the children OR educating the adults.

I believe @Talivar and I made this clear during the election - Stuff like 'We're not cutting the Police, NHS or Schools' is absolutely pointless when you're cutting psychology and many other 'council' services to absolute oblivion, meaning there's a great deal more stress on the Police, NHS and Schools, because it feeds into ALL of it.

As Talivar correctly said - You can complain about it ALL you want, but when it comes back for the tax payer to pay for the prevention that we didn't do earlier on, you'll see the worth of this investment.

 

[Gwadien]

People shouldn't rely on the state to provide basic education for children. A child should be prepared for education by its parents. Basic reading, writing and numeracy should be taught from a young age, by the parents.

Some parents don't understand the value of education, even at an early age, when they don't care, you have to teach them to care, surely?

 

[Moriath]

No, you're looking at it the wrong way around. If a society spends x hundred thousand on putting a woman through college, training her in a career etc. and then makes it economically unviable for that woman to work after children, not only is the woman losing out, but so is the society that invested in her in the first place. Its a bad use of economic resources. At the less skilled level, paying a woman to stay at home and look after her kids, even in poor provision economies like the UK's, is more expensive overall than paying 3-4 people to look after 20 kids, allowing those women to go back to work.

Fatuous "well, you should have thought of that before you had kids" arguments are irrelevant at a societal and economic level. People will have kids anyway, and it makes sense to minimise the economic fallout from that for society as a whole. (NB. In our case we did think about that before we had kids, and then my wife got made redundant while she was pregnant with our youngest).

I agree form a lets get the most out of societys investment.

However you have to balance the cost economically of child care over the postponed contribution of one of the caring adults.

If as is the case sometimes you have to earn x before the balance equates to it being financially worth it over the child costs then society has determined that inorder for your net benefit to out wiegh the cost of child care thats the figure you need to earn.

You cant provide an expensive service to someone on minimum wage because they want to continue working. To do this for everyone would mean that society would be over valuing the minimum wage job. Imo

 

[Raven]

Some parents don't understand the value of education, even at an early age, when they don't care, you have to teach them to care, surely?

Why bother throwing money at a problem when we should be fixing the problem in the first place?

 

[Gwadien]

Why bother throwing money at a problem when we should be fixing the problem in the first place?

What are you on about? - Fixing the problem is by investing money at an early age to sort them out for future lives - not cut the budgets and then shrug when they become another prison number.

How else do you suggest we 'fix' the problem? - Kill off all the shit parents?

 

[Talivar]

How do we fix it in the first place?

 

[Gwadien]

I agree form a lets get the most out of societys investment.

However you have to balance the cost economically of child care over the postponed contribution of one of the caring adults.

If as is the case sometimes you have to earn x before the balance equates to it being financially worth it over the child costs then society has determined that inorder for your net benefit to out wiegh the cost of child care thats the figure you need to earn.

You cant provide an expensive service to someone on minimum wage because they want to continue working. To do this for everyone would mean that society would be over valuing the minimum wage job. Imo

No, the Government needs to change the carebear laws to suit parents.

Tiering out different levels of nursery nurses would be one way to go about it - a newly qualified one deals 1-1 but more experienced ones get more kids on their hands and get a bit more pay in return.

Although in honesty, I have no idea how it works in general.

 

[Trem]

I don't think you get it.

Families inherently don't have the values and morals to teach their children, and the community which used to slap the scumbags kids when they fucked about has now gone, and they're in prison.

Education from the State is the ONLY thing that can replace it - either through educating the children OR educating the adults.

I believe @Talivar and I made this clear during the election - Stuff like 'We're not cutting the Police, NHS or Schools' is absolutely pointless when you're cutting psychology and many other 'council' services to absolute oblivion, meaning there's a great deal more stress on the Police, NHS and Schools, because it feeds into ALL of it.

As Talivar correctly said - You can complain about it ALL you want, but when it comes back for the tax payer to pay for the prevention that we didn't do earlier on, you'll see the worth of this investment.

No, you don't get it.

You can't polish turds, roll them in glitter maybe but everything else is just smoke and mirrors and will not change a thing. There will always be mouth breathing people who have kids and no amount of pirouetting councillors will instantly make them better parents for gods sake.

 

[Talivar]

How many have you tried with?

 

[Raven]

What are you on about? - Fixing the problem is by investing money at an early age to sort them out for future lives - not cut the budgets and then shrug when they become another prison number.

How else do you suggest we 'fix' the problem? - Kill off all the shit parents?

Fixing the problem is educating parents in what should be expected of them. Not turfing them out the day after giving birth with a copy of whats on magazine. Even tie it into their benefits if necessary. ...and to be completely blunt about it, those unwilling to actually parent, should not parent.

 

[Talivar]

The services that people seem to think should be cut DO try to do that, during pregnancy and after birth

 

[Gwadien]

Fixing the problem is educating parents in what should be expected of them. Not turfing them out the day after giving birth with a copy of whats on magazine. Even tie it into their benefits if necessary. ...and to be completely blunt about it, those unwilling to actually parent, should not parent.

Which is what @Talivar and I said, but we're saying the budgets are being cut for that.

 

[Raven]

Well whatever they think they are doing has not worked for 20 years so why bother doing the same over and over and expecting the same result?

The budgets are being cut because there is an obscene amount of wastage. Although admittedly nobody is coming up with a real alternative at the moment.

I mean ffs, even layabouts get X hours a week where they can offload their child to someone else.

 

[Talivar]

It does work tho, its just there are so few workers they can only reach a small % of the target population

 

[Raven]

Its not working at all, its still a bandaid. More and more children are just not prepared for starting school and was even in decline when money was just getting thrown at the problem.

You can't change parents by doing their jobs for them.

 

[old.user4556]

Its not working at all, its still a bandaid. More and more children are just not prepared for starting school and was even in decline when money was just getting thrown at the problem.

You can't change parents by doing their jobs for them.

My missus is a teacher (currently Primary 2, 6 years old) and some of the children are horrifically behaved and can't read or write. She only has to look to the parents to understand why - they simply don't give a fuck about a good education for their children. All the money in the world wouldn't change that attitude, so the kids have go no hope. If anything, these children are a liability because they're fucking it up for the children who DO want to learn.

 

[Talivar]

I will give an example and use a standard good result family, not best case and not worst case..
For 12-24 weeks of work i can take a family that are struggling to manage their children and their finances and have the children back in school and conforming as well as helping resolve the financial situation. Sounds like a lot of fluff but lets do it the maths way
1 child causing lots of problems in school needs dedicated hours from School staff, a low paid teaching assistant here is about £12k and will often manage that child 1-1. So to make it easier lets say 26 weeks for 6k or 13 weeks for 3k
Same child also causes a lot of anti social behavior which can take up police time and sometimes but not always fire brigade time. Add to this the cost of whatever damage they cause to property. Depending on the child this could be as low as £100s to £1000s
Parents dont work so claim benefits, its pretty fair to say they can get £2000 a month or more especially if they claiming the child's behavior is due to an "undiagnosed condition" and then get DLA and carers allowance. so lets say another £4k here
Getting all that sorted and parent/s into work cost about 3-4h a week of my time for 12-24 weeks so lets do the max and say 4h for 24 weeks = 96h = about 2.5 weeks wages wise so for me thats about just over £1k.

This is a very quick and rough estimate that doesnt factor in Doctors time/ therapist time/ Job Centre workers time/Multiple Children ect

 

[Moriath]

No, the Government needs to change the carebear laws to suit parents.

Tiering out different levels of nursery nurses would be one way to go about it - a newly qualified one deals 1-1 but more experienced ones get more kids on their hands and get a bit more pay in return.

Although in honesty, I have no idea how it works in general.

No they dont. Its up to them what they do. You would like them to do that.

But so far they are saying you need to earn this much to have child care being affordable.

 

[Raven]

That's all well and good, and admirable but they shouldn't be like that in the first place, if they were brought up properly and nurtured then there would be no need to clean up afterwards...and it would be free.

 

[Talivar]

Everyone understands that but how can we go about trying to get them like that in the first place if all the people trying to do it get their funds cut

 

[Moriath]

They used to be. When people respected the police and teachers were able to instill discipline. Now we have parents who have been bpughtupwithout morals and are passing those same views on. Needs to come from the ground up. Not this you cant lose, cant be bad attitude schools and every has at the moment. Kids need to learn there are rules and consequences and that life sucks if you dont work hard.

Its all namby pamby. Ohif we dont do well we live on the dole attitude.

Which is why its good benefits are being cut

 

[Talivar]

Another benefit of services like mine is we STOP many families being able to claim benefits unfairly as we go in and show its parenting at fault and not un-diagnosed conditions like ADHD or ADD like the parents often try to claim. In many areas now before the Doctors will even entertain the family and the claims of ADHD, the family have to do an intense parenting course so people like me can evaluate the family to determine if it is indeed just bad parenting.