A Discussion

[Flimgoblin]

Re: sharkith.

Two points there:

1. Difference on the Mythic servers.

Mythic rules are different to the GOA rules, as you've pointed out.

However a slightly more positive example is in the "Dark Wolves camp DF" - a guild sat in darkness falls killing the friendly DF merchants repeatedly, to stop anyone else in their realm from accessing the shops.

Mythic did nothing, suspended a few people for being abusive in /sends or /br towards the griefing guild. They fixed the issue in code a little bit later by making the DF merchants realm guards.

When Chaos Theory tried the same trick on Excalibur they were all banned for a week...
(admittedly the "just fix it in the code" option wasn't available to GOA so they had to be more proactive...)

2. I've no idea what Muy's thoughts but personally I don't think that it matters what any self-proclaimed "leading" set of guilds or alliances or people on FH would have decided.... I don't think it should ever be acceptible to set a relic keep to level 1*, i.e. to sabotage your realm.

Since it would be impossible to contact everyone who would have been playing in albion over the time that the keep was set to level 1 to get their agreement...
If, somehow, you managed that I'd probably say it's ok but given it wouldn't ever happen I'm definitely in the "nuhuh, bad!" camp.



Random analogy time (as this post doesn't have enough)

If someone kills a monster you wanted to kill (i.e. does something in game you don't like but within the game rules) it's not suddenly OK to follow them around and sabotage their pulls....

Even if you took a huge BG raid to kill Apocalypse and some servant necro was farming him every time you tried...

It's lame play by that necro but it doesn't justify even lamer play.

* obviously if everyone lost all their GBP and the only level anyone could keep the keep claimed at was level 1 that'd be ok it's the motivation here that matters

 

[Kagato]

Now Muly.

What do you think of that?

I think it sucks.

I think its perfectly fine and im quite happy we actually have people in charge at GOA who take an interest and are willing to respond to in-game siturations in RvR where people are acting in blatently lame (tt) and possibly even griefing manners.
In fact I applaud them for it, well done GOA, for the second time they have proven they can actually do something better then Mythic (the first time being when they added Barrels to the game).

 

[Tuthmes]

I think its perfectly fine and im quite happy we actually have people in charge at GOA who take an interest and are willing to respond to in-game siturations in RvR where people are acting in blatently lame (tt) and possibly even griefing manners.
In fact I applaud them for it, well done GOA, for the second time they have proven they can actually do something better then Mythic (the first time being when they added Barrels to the game).

For your information GoA only reacted to player whinge, not because of their interrest ingame(as so stated by Requiel).

About blatently beeing lame/griefing, well thats all a matter of opinion. It's perfectly fine to ac keeps/relics, because we have the option todo so. Yet we also have the option to lower a keep to lvl 1 and nowhere does it say we cant do so.

Anyways as you pointed out earlier, you dont give a rats ass about other players fun ingame. Your actions and comments certainly underline it.

 

[IainC]

GoA never once said they would ban for this. In fact, early after it was done people got replies saying they were fine with it then changed their minds. Instead of posting on the main page that it wasn't allowed and given us an oppurtuinty to rectify the situation, they just outright banned two players.

Just need to set this straight. We never said it was ok initially, there was no sudden reversal of our position. We did say that we would investigate but we would not have got drawn either way before we'd had a chance to look into what happened.
No-one got 'outright banned' either. Two players got a short suspension, I know you know this but I've seen rehashes of this in other places where chinese whispers have magically turned the two 5 day suspensions into us permabanning two entire guilds. I think it's important to keep that in perspective to avoid uninformed over-reaction.

 

[Tuthmes]

Just need to set this straight. We never said it was ok initially, there was no sudden reversal of our position. .

Well thats exactly it. The problem is you hade no position in the first place. Since when do players need an "OK" from goa for certain actions?
As mentioned before, relic dropping happend more then once on prydwen atleast, yet this hasnt bin seen as a problem before.

 

[Tuthmes]

To put it short. Does Goa see the SotG in a realm vs realm perspective, or from a playerbase vs playerbase perspective? The answer proberbly is the first 1, but as seen now, this game needs 3 realms to even have a "spirit" at all (although some will disagree and have more fun pve'ing keeps, zerging whats left and win the game untill its dead).

 

[Tuthmes]

Ohh and how do population bonusses fit into this picture btw? Is this griefing play by Goa itself? I mean giving realms an edge just because they got a lower population, tsk tsk.

p.s. Soz about the post farming, things just pop in my head slow atm!

 

[Flimgoblin]

Ohh and how do population bonusses fit into this picture btw? Is this griefing play by Goa itself? I mean giving realms an edge just because they got a lower population, tsk tsk.

p.s. Soz about the post farming, things just pop in my head slow atm!

You seem to miss the difference between:

1. Code changes to help an underpopulated realm.

2. Fighting between realms.

and

3. Deliberately sabotaging your own realm . (this one being bad)

 

[Tuthmes]

You seem to miss the difference between:

1. Code changes to help an underpopulated realm.

2. Fighting between realms.

and

3. Deliberately sabotaging your own realm . (this one being bad)

1. Lowering a keep lvl to help an underpopulated realm to get back what whas taking with no defenders, by a griefplaying guild group + random albs.

2. Err? If this is the realm vs realm thing then, what part about "a game" and "players in general" don't you understand? Unless you wanne roleplay beeing an alb in real life aswell (no pun intented, seriously) and feel that albion > real life fun of other players.

3.1 Sabotage what? A relic albs don't give a damn about?

or

3.2 Mythic sabotaging 2 other realms by giving 1 realm a bonus in rvr (this one beeing grief play by goa).

[editted due to possibly getting point 2. Said i whas slow today :|]

 

[Rigga Mortice]

obtuse, nice, another word i had to look up.

*abbreviated, click on link above to view full post*

they behaved like ***** and arseholes who tought they had a god given right to act on that level without giving any justification about their actions to anyone.

I'll take that as a "No I wouldn't" then, shall I?

I'd say it's more along the lines of a vigilante reaction: That dude in the shop over there is selling his bananas cheaper than me, and it's making me less profit, so I'm going to go down to the airport and blow up all incoming banana crates.

Because, of course, TT lowered the relic keep because we, and only we, were making less "profit", by which I sincerely hope you are equating profit with enjoyment of the game.

Just need to set this straight. We never said it was ok initially, there was no sudden reversal of our position. We did say that we would investigate but we would not have got drawn either way before we'd had a chance to look into what happened.
No-one got 'outright banned' either. Two players got a short suspension, I know you know this but I've seen rehashes of this in other places where chinese whispers have magically turned the two 5 day suspensions into us permabanning two entire guilds. I think it's important to keep that in perspective to avoid uninformed over-reaction.

Speaking of which:

I'm not going to endlessly debate this because it isn't the point of this thread. However you are incorrect on a number of assumptions. You assume that we had no direct logged evidence as to the motives of the peopel involved and that we only reacted because of complaints on the forum. I said it at the time and I'll say it again, if we did not have absolute evidence for the reason that those two individuals lowered Renaris we would have done nothing. We don't take 'confessions' on a forum into account and neither do we base policy on whine. We investigated using logs and tools from our systems and took action based on a clear indication that a definite line had been crossed. Regardless of why they felt they had to do what they did, their actions were wrong.

Leaving people to make uninformed over-reactions as to what this evidence/reason might be, which cannot be discussed due to the reasons of "confidentiality", is just as important to avoid, don't you think?

It would do wonders for bringing a resolution to this whole incident, and stop the "endless debate" if you could just inform everyone of what this evidence actually consists of? Because I was in the group that night, and I'm still at a loss.

What's more, I'll meet you half way. I hereby totally waive my right to any and all confidentiality as to the logs of my chat window during and after the lowering of the keep. I should imagine the others concerned will be similarly eager to help end this.

 

[Belisar]

And still we get nowhere.

Muly thinks that because some albs wanted to defend the level 1 keep they were objecting to TT's actions. So it had nothing to do with the chance to farm some rps then ?

The only poll we have seen is a FH one which as Film rightly says is not exactly a definitive opinion from the alb realm. However the results do speak for themselves and we have no other way of testing any opinions.

Kag congratulates GOA for giving short bans to people dropping the level of the keep as it is against the SotG and 'griefing manners'. Is this the same person who admitted AC raiding to 'grief' the other realms ?

TT's actions spoke volumes for them. They acted in a way which tried to think about the game as a whole, the other realms and every player in it. Hurrah for them and their selfless rather than selfish act.

People have been getting increasing upset over AC raids for some time and some of us have been suggesting that such raids could have an impact on the community. A stupid few ignored it. CM got a lot of stick for AC raids, acknowledged the effect it was having on the game and stopped them. Some rather sad individuals decided that 'hacking off' a chunk of the community was a fun thing to do and so we end up where we are. We now have numbers of disaffected players either left the game or gone to another server. We have an english server with a lack of active RvR'ers and now GOA are having to think about what to do next.

So let's stop blaming TT for their actions. They would not have been necessary if certain players would have listened or thought about others.

SotG is a shoddy 'rule' as it stands as it is open to too much interpretation. GOA got it wrong by blindly enforcing a rule and giving short bans to some people, as Req puts it "regardless of why they felt they had to do what they did". It should not be regardless of why, the why is so important if they really want to ensure the longevity of the game.

 

[Muylaetrix]

SotG is a shoddy 'rule' as it stands as it is open to too much interpretation. GOA got it wrong by blindly enforcing a rule and giving short bans to some people, as Req puts it "regardless of why they felt they had to do what they did". It should not be regardless of why, the why is so important if they really want to ensure the longevity of the game.

excuses made up afterwards to justify an error. TT fucked up. TT came back with a better show of public relations on freddies than what they had done ingame.

get over it, 2 people got a 5 day ban.

they deserveded it.

traitors.

 

[Everz]

excuses made up afterwards to justify an error. TT fucked up. TT came back with a better show of public relations on freddies than what they had done ingame.

get over it, 2 people got a 5 day ban.

they deserveded it.

traitors.

and now you get to rot on this craphole, gg

 

[Soulja_IA_]

excuses made up afterwards to justify an error. TT fucked up. TT came back with a better show of public relations on freddies than what they had done ingame.

get over it, 2 people got a 5 day ban.

they deserveded it.

traitors.

And now isn't this server in a very sorry state Mids hardly RvRing Hibs only holding the little bit they got even when the AC crew take crauch at 4 in morning just so now you lot can say "Oh look we done a primetime raid".

Muyl you have got to admit that SOTG is fucked with the small amount of people doing this crap and it all down to those Few led by you Leader Horner who thinks what he is doing is great when in fact it turned to crap.

Horner (Albs)Excal/Pryd 1 Rest of Server 0

No wonder Population is low and really can't see Requiel and the Goa lot doing anything at all to try and revive it seems we all be speaking german soon.

Soulja

 

[Thadius]

Morale was low before the TT incident, people were pissed off with GOA for not doing anything to halt the slow decline in server. TT did what they thought nwas needed as noone else seemed to have any other ideas. It was not against the rules. Would you rather they waited till Hibs/Mids were on the lord before downgrading/releasing? Or all the towers surrounding the keep were dropped simultaniously?

In my eyes what they did was justifiable, they didnt want the suituation of more hibs/mids quitting over this. Yes those hibs/mids would probably be pissed off and annoying and the cowardly acs, but im sure if Albs stopped doing them, they would return. But Albs did nothing, just continued with it. So hibs/mids took thier money elsewhere, like you would do with a shop. If you got a shit meal from Pizza Hut, would you go back for more of the same? Of course not, you would take your business elsewhere, making the company lose customers and more importantly, money.

A company is built on the support of its customers, GOA lost the plot with the TT incident and I for one will not "shop" with them again. That means me never seeing my main character who I have a lot of fond memories, but I refuse to line to pockets of a company who does little to support its customers, even going as far to banning 2 who tried to take action when GOA didn't.

 

[Belisar]

excuses made up afterwards to justify an error. TT fucked up. TT came back with a better show of public relations on freddies than what they had done ingame.

You have said that they gave no reason for their actions at the time and that the whole anti AC issue was an excuse made up afterwards.

Can I ask why you think they did it then ?

 

[Thadius]

On the subject of goa banning people that break the apparent sotg.

Vae Victus on Glast, constatly having 3 fg on stick. Complaints put in. GOA did nothing. VV helped to kill that server. But look at Us side of things, it is the biggest cluster out there. All it needed was a dedicated playerbase(glast had that at the start, people hated toa and came back to try it out) and not 3 fg on stick.

Encounter stealing in toa. Im usre these are numerous, but it isnt against the rules.(Although id say if you camped a spot for 7 hours then some guy runs in and takes it is pretty lame and against the sotg)

Instarvr. Im sure people whined about this. GOA did nothing.

 

[Soulja_IA_]

You have said that they gave no reason for their actions at the time and that the whole anti AC issue was an excuse made up afterwards.

Can I ask why you think they did it then ?

Muyl cannot answer that as he has Tunnel Vision when it comes to this think he like to see this server die and atm he and his small band of albs mainly horner are doing this.

Mids seem to have vanished from RvR and way things are going Hibs be going same way and albs can Pve as many keeps as they like because it be only way they get any RP then when all keeps are gone and Towers they be wandering around NF thinking what the Fuck went wrong.

Goa at this point will say it all in the SOTG and then cluster server with a German/French one and like Glastonbury you can't understand a dam shit and then we all give up.

Result is then Daoc becomes history for a lot of us especially 1's who do not understand different language only hope is they cluster with a German one and hope Horner cannot understand german then he gets fucked over.

It seems NF was not well thought out when a small number can spoil a game for the majority and if Goa do not act very very soon then Dyvet Server becomes Empty Server.

Soulja

 

[Kagato]

Kag congratulates GOA for giving short bans to people dropping the level of the keep as it is against the SotG and 'griefing manners'. Is this the same person who admitted AC raiding to 'grief' the other realms ?

Yes it is, though my exact words were that griefing was one of several reasons for doing it (the others being a) to get a relic b) to get a relic title, probably the biggest incentive of all, and c) I simply wasn't tired due to night shifts).

And as I also stated in my post, I had wanted to do something vengeful and nasty for a long while as pay back for the Traitorous Twats incident and got my opportunity. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it sure felt good at the time.

If GOA wanted to interfere with AC raids and step in for 'the good of the game' and prevent any future AC raids, then I would fully support their actions if they can justify it and implement the measures in a neutrally fair manner.

However I would imagine all you would end up with is relics never ever changing hands again.

 

[Brackus]

However I would imagine all you would end up with is relics never ever changing hands again.

Hmm so your saying that if people dont AC then relic wouldnt change hands? How do mids and hibs take relics? it certainly isnt like albs .

I think what you meant to say was:

If Goa stop Albs from AC'ing then we will never own a relic again! zomg!

 

[Gahn]

Just need to set this straight. We never said it was ok initially, there was no sudden reversal of our position. We did say that we would investigate but we would not have got drawn either way before we'd had a chance to look into what happened.
No-one got 'outright banned' either. Two players got a short suspension, I know you know this but I've seen rehashes of this in other places where chinese whispers have magically turned the two 5 day suspensions into us permabanning two entire guilds. I think it's important to keep that in perspective to avoid uninformed over-reaction.

English Team took a stance that was never taken before against similar actions period, pls try at least to not come and spit bollocks about it cause we ain't stupid. Thx.

 

[Davejohnson]

the "its a 24/7 game" has probably caused more trouble then anything else on this cluster.. in 'real life' you would wake up if someone started bashing on your house, in daoc you dont. therefor its a pretty much useless rule imo.

and i doubt any alarmclock/nightraids have brought more fighting spirit then the opposite, regardless of when they happened.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

the "its a 24/7 game" has probably caused more trouble then anything else on this cluster.. in 'real life' you would wake up if someone started bashing on your house, in daoc you dont. therefor its a pretty much useless rule imo.

and i doubt any alarmclock/nightraids have brought more fighting spirit then the opposite, regardless of when they happened.

You need to sort your synaptic strings out. You make no sense at all.

But yes, I have the bad dreams about characters from DAoC bashing at my door too sometimes.

 

[Davejohnson]

You need to sort your synaptic strings out. You make no sense at all.

But yes, I have the bad dreams about characters from DAoC bashing at my door too sometimes.

ooh a stalker!

and i dont think that is too hard to understand for most people =)

 

[Raven]

Just need to set this straight. We never said it was ok initially, there was no sudden reversal of our position. We did say that we would investigate but we would not have got drawn either way before we'd had a chance to look into what happened.
No-one got 'outright banned' either. Two players got a short suspension, I know you know this but I've seen rehashes of this in other places where chinese whispers have magically turned the two 5 day suspensions into us permabanning two entire guilds. I think it's important to keep that in perspective to avoid uninformed over-reaction.

i see, so you will now be investigating the guilds that lowered hib keeps to level 1 to give iRVR? (and resulting in the loss of relics over night) thats great news!

admit it, you messed up at the cost of a cluster, now is your chance to fix it by handing it over to mythic, you lot are clearly incapable of managing it.

 

[Everz]

cluster us with devon, gogo m8s i wanna play my chanter.. its been a long time

 

[joap]

excuses made up afterwards to justify an error. TT fucked up. TT came back with a better show of public relations on freddies than what they had done ingame.

"Excuses made up afterwards" is how i would qualify GOAs actions by calling upon something never (correct me if i'm wrong here plz anyone) before used in all the years this server has been up. Namely the conveniently vague and all embracing SoTG.

get over it, 2 people got a 5 day ban.

they deserveded it.

traitors.

Oxford dictionary is already preparing the new definition of treason: "Not helping Muyly keep the fruit of his hard work in late night RRing".
/sarcasm

 

[Sharkith]

Re: sharkith.

Two points there:

1. Difference on the Mythic servers.

Mythic rules are different to the GOA rules, as you've pointed out.

Some nice points here and at least people are dealing with this sincerely which is good. I want to respond your points Flim because they are decent ones.

The first point I guess is given to show that GOA have acted well on ocassions better than Mythic. I agree in fact GOA have done some really good things. I have found them particularly good most of the time. One thing your missing though is that you didn't go through the whole debacle where toons you had had their items deleted and then have to wait 6 months for them to be restored. I say this and yet I can see that to some extent that GOA were royally fucked over by Mythic. The fact remains people lost items and had to keep paying GOA in order to have them restored. Even though they could not play on their main character. So they had to pay not to play and wait for an under resourced team to try and sort out the mess.

So I am afraid Flim you see things too much through rose tinted glasses. If you had been through this the way some people have you might be less forgiving.

Now to be more direct even if GOA have acted well on other ocassions doesn't deflect the original point. This debate is about interpretation and GOA argued that this was against the SoTG. Mythic who created the game clearly don't see it the same way. Establishing that 'fact' in opposition to GOA's interpretation is an important difference, it exposes a very important inconsistency and since we pay them it should be made for what it is so people can decide for themselves.

You might think the point is moot but it is not that simple. If I pay for a product I expect it to deliver. If it turns out to be something else than what I thought I am going to get upset.

Not only this but it places GOA in an absurd position because they are now acting to defend people who have admitted here they have deliberately gone out to grief us.

Now I am not going to make the arguements for you and others but this is very very important here. It is the purpose if this discussion and it might be worth getting back to the whole point of the thread.

People on Dyvet AC raided to grief others. Fact
People on Dyvet dropped a keep to 1 to try an ameliorate the effects of these raids. Fact
GOA acted by banning people who did this for 5 days. Fact
GOA see dropping a keep to level 1 as always 100% against the SoTG. Fact
Mythic who made the game do not ban people for doing this. Fact

Now I will add the following claim:
GOA have been (albiet accidentally) forced to act for griefers.

Once you intervene in a community you take a side. GOA took the side of griefers. That is what fucks me and so many other people off.

2. I've no idea what Muy's thoughts but personally I don't think that it matters what any self-proclaimed "leading" set of guilds or alliances or people on FH would have decided.... I don't think it should ever be acceptible to set a relic keep to level 1*, i.e. to sabotage your realm.

Since it would be impossible to contact everyone who would have been playing in albion over the time that the keep was set to level 1 to get their agreement...
If, somehow, you managed that I'd probably say it's ok but given it wouldn't ever happen I'm definitely in the "nuhuh, bad!" camp.

Now and this is very important but can you justify your way of 'thinking'? There is nothing wrong with opinion but if you are sincere then you should justify your opinion clearly with supporting propositions.

I don't see any decent alternative argument. I never got it from GOA and Requiel has singularly failed to provide one here.

On the pro side you have Muly who is ignoring my requests for a response and Kagato who just sounds like a clanging gong, all coat and no knickers. Not only that but he has very little credibility in my eyes because he acted like a griefing tard in game and on these forums.

So go ahead Flim by all means make the argument all the others appear to be incapable of doing so - why don't you help them?

 

[IainC]

People on Dyvet AC raided to grief others. Fact
People on Dyvet dropped a keep to 1 to try an ameliorate the effects of these raids. Fact
GOA acted by banning people who did this for 5 days. Fact
GOA see dropping a keep to level 1 as always 100% against the SoTG. Fact
Mythic who made the game do not ban people for doing this. Fact

1: People on Dyvet AC raided for many reasons. Mostly because they were awake and wanted to RvR. We do not consider and will never consider keep taking to be against the rules. It cannot be griefing.
2: There were better things they could have done. Actions could have been taken to express their point of view without sabotaging their realm. They were entitlted to their opinion, they were not entitled tot enforce it on the rest of the realm.
3: My comment was with reference to a keep containing a relic, not just to any keep.
4: I am not aware of any similar incidents on Mythic servers.

English Team took a stance that was never taken before against similar actions period, pls try at least to not come and spit bollocks about it cause we ain't stupid. Thx.

This situation has never happened before. We look at all incidents ona case by case basis as it's not possible nor desirable to have a blanket policy to cover ever eventuality.

 

[Jess]

1: People on Dyvet AC raided for many reasons. Mostly because they were awake and wanted to RvR. We do not consider and will never consider keep taking to be against the rules. It cannot be griefing.
2: There were better things they could have done. Actions could have been taken to express their point of view without sabotaging their realm. They were entitlted to their opinion, they were not entitled tot enforce it on the rest of the realm.
3: My comment was with reference to a keep containing a relic, not just to any keep.
4: I am not aware of any similar incidents on Mythic servers.



This situation has never happened before. We look at all incidents ona case by case basis as it's not possible nor desirable to have a blanket policy to cover ever eventuality.

I once paticipated (as mid) in a relic raid on the hib where the relic was dropped deliberately in an alb portal keep. Is that not sabotaging my own realm?