Well server clone didnt work

[MagnusGOA]

Good day!
Great discussion with many novel points here; thank you!

I'll address a few topics:
1. Cloned server population
2. Population caps
3. CTD and requeuing
4. Character transfers


1. Indeed, not as many chose to move to the new clone servers as we had hoped for. There are many explanations to this, many out of our direct control. One area where we could have done better, such informing the general public of the cloning process. Not all our players are reading the news on war-europe and even fewer regularly check community forums for devposts. We recognise this and as a response, we have now changed the 'Message of the Day' on the cloned servers to indicate that they've been cloned. Further, we've updated the Patcher to include information on this.

One thing to consider regarding the population on the freshly cloned servers is that, as has been pointed out, we'd open new servers anyway. New players are signing up for WAR in a steady stream and our marketing campaign across Europe has only just started for real. We will see many, many more joining our ranks as time go on. In due time, the servers will feature a strong populace.


2. It has been said before and I'll say it again: if reducing queues was as simple as to increase the server caps on our servers, we'd do it. There really is a need for steadfastness and for us to, frankly, not yeild to the demands of the few who are frustrated after an hour's queue. For what would happen if we did? Hypothetically, let us assume that we could increase the population cap now. What would then happen when the population of the server would enter tier four and start doing end-game RvR? We would have one of two situations: either we'd be forced to lower the server cap and create larger queues than ever before, or we'd keep the cap and see zones crashing left and right. Neither of these situations is a pretty outlook. Forgive me for repeating myself but please let me reiterate that our Prime Objective is to provide stable servers to our players. Not only right now - little more than a week after launch - but for years to come.


3. Crash To Desktop (CTD) is something Mythic has been working on with a high priority for a long time and we've seen great improvements over the last month and even since Open Beta. CTD's in combinations with server queues is something which has been adding salt to the wounds of tired warriors. Mythic are currently working on a fix for this, allowing players who've recently crashed to jump the queue. Keep an eye on war-europe and the Herald for updates on this.


4. Mark Jacobs has said many times over that WAR will offer free character transfers. This will be so, but not quite yet. We're fresh out of the gate, we're seeing the population distribute itself somewhat and when the timing is right, we'll offer character transfers.


On Sunday, it's been two weeks since the CE Head Start begun and it's been an exciting time for all involved. There is no non-dictatorship way of running an MMO which can guarantee a complete lack of queues. Server populations and realm balance is an organic process which cannot - and should not - be governed from above. With server cloning and future character transfers we are providing tools which help the roots to grow more freely. Rest assure though, we will not only provide the tools, but also incentives. More on this in due time.


-Magnus

 

[Muylaetrix]

My idea was to close the clone servers and use the machines to extend the population cap. as the city rvr is in instances of 48 so it can easy be handled by extra server power. but without having alook at how they have set of the server base i cant give accurate answer.

i think your `solution` is about as realistic as praying to whatever god you fancy to solve this.

imagine they upped the server capacity on excall and prydwin and clustered those 2 servers in it`s first year, it would have been a nightmare. 2000 people in emain instead of 1000 people in emain. the biggest zergs EVER. horrible lag client wise. more crashes and ld`s than ever before.

i`m prety sure if adding more computers to a server without endangering the stability or playability was an option, they would have done so.

 

[Frosty]

Thanks magnusk for that reply it does say alot and inform us on whats in planing.

The work you do is noticed for which i do thank you all for.

Keep up the good work

 

[Cadelin]

4. Mark Jacobs has said many times over that WAR will offer free character transfers. This will be so, but not quite yet. We're fresh out of the gate, we're seeing the population distribute itself somewhat and when the timing is right, we'll offer character transfers.

Could you clarify this point some more. Do you forsee a period in future where there will be free character transfers from any server to any other of the same ruleset?

I ask because while the total population of a server is important for the quality of RvR people may well find that they want to play with/against players from other server. Many former daoc players had to re-roll the same character several time in order to play with similar minded players. If I make a character on a non busy server I don't want to find that 1 year from now I have to re-roll because its the only way to play with like minded players?

 

[Boggy]

Population problems come about for one reason only - player decision on which server and faction to play.

Providing a character transfer won't help much if that root cause is not addressed. Sure GOA can help address it by educating players and incentivising switches, but the thing that would impact this the most is if the player community starts to accept this is a player problem, not a technical problem.

If we all (or most of us) start accepting that we should put more weight on server population when we choose which server to play, this problem will radically reduce.

Guilds DO have the ability to shift servers. At the moment they choose not to either because (a) their desire to play alongside other people they know outweighs their dislike of the queues or (b) they don't want to face the logistic challenge of moving.

I'd like to see more leadership and communication from GOA on this (even above those points Magnus made), but I really don't think GOA should be receiving much flak when they are clearly trying quite hard to help and communicate.

 

[fatgit]

The fix to allow crashed players to rejoin will be a godsend to be honest, now, if you could just persuade Mythic to allow us to swap chars too, I'd be a happy bunny.

 

[Kerig]

My idea was to close the clone servers and use the machines to extend the population cap. as the city rvr is in instances of 48 so it can easy be handled by extra server power. but without having alook at how they have set of the server base i cant give accurate answer.

So with your next post try and be in the spirit of things and give a maybe possible asnwer if you can think of one . beside the boring one " Delete your characters and move server " stuff

Frosty, they cant increase the server caps. The caps have been chosen so that in the endgame the rvr zones and folks home pc's will be able to handle the population. The 48capped city siege is only a small part of endgame RvR, there will be lots of occasions where keep siege zones have several hundred players on each side.

If you dont want to queue you only have a few options:
-the best by far is to reroll as order on a medium server.
-next best is to reroll/move to clone as destruction on a medium/low server.
-last is that you stop playing for a few months and see if the populations balance out across the servers then come back.

If none of these appeal then i dont think theres much point in your continuing to play WAR. Im sorry if thats not the answer you want to hear but unfortunately there is no instant cure to the queue problems.

The only additional way GoA can assist with server balancing is by implementing character transfer/cloning to less populated servers, and im sure they will do this at some time.

Personally i hope they let things settle for a month or two first as it will increase the numbers who reroll order, and this will be better for the game in the long term (4 years+ ).

 

[Septima]

Yesterday logged in at 17h GMT = 6min queue
Logged in later at 22h30 GMT = +/- 15min queue

Destruction Side, server K8Peaks.
I can live with that....

 

[Iorlas]

I notice that all those that play Order continualy say move to another server or a cloned one.Firstly moving to another server kinda negates the headstart yes?Secondly for destruction to move to their clone there would have to be some Order guilds/players willing to go there aswell otherwise there is no incentive to to go there,as i have said before...why would a few hundred destruction players want to play on a server with no enemies?why would any Order players want to go there anyway?So no matter how much you continue to tell us to move, some of you also have to be willing to move to make the whole thing work.
When our guild picked our server on the first day of headstart how were we supposed to know exactly how busy it was going to be?if we had know it would end up with 1hr que's we certainly wouldn't have picked it.Now i'm being told that it's my own fault i should have picked another server or played Order,i don't want to play Order.I now have the option of playing on a server on my own or re rolling on a new server...that sure sounds fair to me.
:freddyfm:

 

[Boggy]

I notice that all those that play Order continualy say move to another server or a cloned one.Firstly moving to another server kinda negates the headstart yes?Secondly for destruction to move to their clone there would have to be some Order guilds/players willing to go there aswell otherwise there is no incentive to to go there,as i have said before...why would a few hundred destruction players want to play on a server with no enemies?why would any Order players want to go there anyway?So no matter how much you continue to tell us to move, some of you also have to be willing to move to make the whole thing work.
When our guild picked our server on the first day of headstart how were we supposed to know exactly how busy it was going to be?if we had know it would end up with 1hr que's we certainly wouldn't have picked it.Now i'm being told that it's my own fault i should have picked another server or played Order,i don't want to play Order.I now have the option of playing on a server on my own or re rolling on a new server...that sure sounds fair to me.
:freddyfm:

So you refuse to switch server, you refuse to switch faction. You see leveling as some kinda race and you refuse to lose ground. If you're completely unwilling to contribute to a solution, of course it is your own fault.

All those objections you raise are trivialities. If you had any gumption, you would organise a group or players from both sides to move with you and go to a clone. No levels lost, no headstart "wasted" (as you see it), and pretty soon the population will be healthy and with any luck zero queueing.

 

[Iorlas]

So you refuse to switch server, you refuse to switch faction. You see leveling as some kinda race and you refuse to lose ground. If you're completely unwilling to contribute to a solution, of course it is your own fault.

All those objections you raise are trivialities. If you had any gumption, you would organise a group or players from both sides to move with you and go to a clone. No levels lost, no headstart "wasted" (as you see it), and pretty soon the population will be healthy and with any luck zero queueing.

just what the fuk do you know what i will and won't do who the fuk do you think you are???i went on the new cloned server i tried to get others to join me both destruction and order before they where even working so i suggest before you open your bigmouth about things you have no idea do some research.Trivialities wtf you talking about?? trivial that there is no one on the clone server? trivial that joining a new server means 4 day headstart wasted and the money i paid for the privalage??Where have i said i'm worried about leveling? i'm not worried at all i have 1 char. and he's a lvl19 Sorcerer so i'm hardley rushing you fukwit.i take it that you play order.....

 

[Soazak]

just what the fuk do you know what i will and won't do who the fuk do you think you are???i went on the new cloned server i tried to get others to join me both destruction and order before they where even working so i suggest before you open your bigmouth about things you have no idea do some research.Trivialities wtf you talking about?? trivial that there is no one on the clone server? trivial that joining a new server means 4 day headstart wasted and the money i paid for the privalage??Where have i said i'm worried about leveling? i'm not worried at all i have 1 char. and he's a lvl19 Sorcerer so i'm hardley rushing you fukwit.i take it that you play order.....

Such anger



He's only saying the choices you have are:

a) move to a server with no queues
b) put up with the queues


GOA have given people an option to move without losing their char, sure it isnt idea, and transfer would have been much better but they have offered something.

 

[Cadelin]

GOA have given people an option to move without losing their char, sure it isnt idea, and transfer would have been much better but they have offered something.

How would transfer have been better? You can move from one over populated server to another over populated server and you will lose things like your guild and if the name has been taken on a different server you will have to change your name etc.

Character transfer would have also taken time. Even if you assume the most efficient service possible it would still mean you waste an evening sorting your character/guild out after a move and if you have a large guild moving 100+ people is not easy. With server cloning, you can simply start playing on a quieter server which will hopefully soon fill up.

 

[Iorlas]

yea anger over a post like that i have every right to be bloody angry.No he's not only giving the choices i have i suggest you reread his post.GOA have given us fa.a choice to reroll or play on a dead server.

 

[Soazak]

How would transfer have been better? You can move from one over populated server to another over populated server and you will lose things like your guild and if the name has been taken on a different server you will have to change your name etc.

Because at this moment in time, it's estimated that each server can hold around 6000 people.

There are not 12000 people currently trying to get onto KEP (and that appears to be the busiest) so 2 servers isn't the greatest solution (however it was probably the only solution available). Perhaps 6800 at peak times were trying to log in, so as far as the immediate problem goes all that has happened is that the problem has shifted in that anyone who has moved to Tor Anroc has essentially taken one for the team, I personally thank them for it, as I can now log in a lot faster but I do feel sorry for them playing on a server with maybe 200 people.

It is firstly our own fault for the queues, and it is also our own fault for whining about the queues so much to force GOA/Mythic to do something about it immediatly, rather than waiting to see what happens when the 30 days are up and if people naturally move on or wait for server transfer to be available, the problems you highlighted with server transfer are tiny compared to being faced with an empty server.


That is why imo server transfer (even if it took longer) would have been a better option. But the community I feel has beem a little short sighted, evidence of such is this whole thread.

 

[Iorlas]

Please explain how it's our own fault for the que's?..as i asked.. how was i supposed to know on day1 that the server i chose was going to have a large que after a a few days?

 

[Vintersorg]

Please explain how it's our own fault for the que's?..as i asked.. how was i supposed to know on day1 that the server i chose was going to have a large que after a a few days?

The near entire Exc./Prydwen community huddled together there That's why there's so many queues and in that respect, we are to blame for the queues

 

[Iorlas]

I'm on Azgal i didn't join any particular server just a random one.It happened to get full so, again how is it my fault?

 

[Cadelin]

There are not 12000 people currently trying to get onto KEP (and that appears to be the busiest) so 2 servers isn't the greatest solution (however it was probably the only solution available). Perhaps 6800 at peak times were trying to log in, so as far as the immediate problem goes all that has happened is that the problem has shifted in that anyone who has moved to Tor Anroc has essentially taken one for the team, I personally thank them for it, as I can now log in a lot faster but I do feel sorry for them playing on a server with maybe 200 people.

As has been said many times, they were going to open those new servers anyway because the population is growing and they are needed. Yes the server population may well be lower on these new servers for a week or two but those new server will fill up.

 

[Muylaetrix]

The alliance i`m in (stronghold on excall), which had the guilds Knights of Pendragon, Humberton Guard, The Dragon Fighters and The Merry Men chose to AVOID the server that the majority of excall/prydwin was going to.

We are very happy to be able to play together with our alliance members from excall and are happy to face opponents from excall like Dem Hibbies and Insurgence.

trying to fit everyone who ever played on excall and prydwin over a period of more than 6 years on 1 single server was, as the situation is now, not really a good idea.

try to imagine if everyone who had been playing on germany or france would have tried to fit on one german or french war server ... queues of 5-10 hours maybe ?

it`s just too many people to fit on one server.

and on the purpose of cloning, goa would have opened 4 new servers to fit all the new players who still are joining the game if they didn`t clone 4 servers. in a few weeks those cloned servers will have a healthy population of new players, whether people actually use the facility offered by cloning or just with new players anyway.

think of how many people from excall and prydwin who haven`t join war yet and are going to join who might wish to join the unofficial `dyvet`server still, and think about the amount of people who have never played daoc who will want to join ex daoc players who they know irl.

i don`t think the unofficial Dyvet server has seen the end of its problems yet, by a long way.

and ... if you choose to use the cloning facility not NOW but in 2 weeks, all progress you will have made since yesterday will be lost as the version of your characters on the clones are there as they were the second before they cloned. so, waiting to use the facility is not a good idea. use it now, or lose all the progress you made since yesterday.

 

[Iorlas]

As has been said many times, they were going to open those new servers anyway because the population is growing and they are needed. Yes the server population may well be lower on these new servers for a week or two but those new server will fill up.

Are you moving to a cloned server? if your on one thats cloned ofc.

 

[Soazak]

As has been said many times, they were going to open those new servers anyway because the population is growing and they are needed. Yes the server population may well be lower on these new servers for a week or two but those new server will fill up.

I hope you're right, if that doesn't happen for some time then the players there will be very bored.

And when new players do come, there will always be the problems that come with that, the majority of the younger players will try go for a server with a 'cool' name.

A lot of players will also chose their server based on the population at the time of joining, it still happens in wow today...people joining the 'terrible 20' that were the original release servers because they're full, or have a reputation of being more competative. The problem of population balance in MMOs will never dissapear.

Cloning has given people an option if they are fed up with queues, but at this moment in time their whine will turn from queue whine to dead server whine


I'm personally staying on KEP, the queues don't bother me, i see it a minor sacrifice to play with my friends...but of course it pleases me that some people have chosen to move, so my queue time is reduce...perhaps at their expense

 

[Cadelin]

Are you moving to a cloned server? if your on one thats cloned ofc.

I am not playing on a server that got cloned.

Cloning has given people an option if they are fed up with queues, but at this moment in time their whine will turn from queue whine to dead server whine

Well I haven't seen a dead server whine yet so please stop whning on their behalf.

 

[Iorlas]

I am not playing on a server that got cloned.

So you have no idea what it's like to have to que, ctd, que, unable to authorise for 4hrs, que,it's easy for you to tell people to move and "hopefully" in a few weeks the server will fill up.What about if they don't fill up?

 

[Cadelin]

So you have no idea what it's like to have to que, ctd, que, unable to authorise for 4hrs, que,it's easy for you to tell people to move and "hopefully" in a few weeks the server will fill up.What about if they don't fill up?

I have every idea what its like to not be able to play a game. I know how frustrating it was which is exactly why I (and alot of other people) decided to avoid that happening. Cloning gives the people the option to avoid the queues if they hate them. If they decide they don't want to then that's their problem.

What makes you believe those servers won't fill up?

 

[Iorlas]

How hard is it to understand that..when i started to play on day 1 of the headstart that i picked a server at random with no prior knowlage of who was going where,my friends then said ok thats cool we will go there.Now suddenley it is our fault for going on that server, for picking to play on destruction and we should now move?You say..
"I know how frustrating it was which is exactly why I (and alot of other people) decided to avoid that happening"...
please enlighten me as to how you knew which server to pick to avoid the problem,unless of course you never had the headstart to begin with.

 

[Cadelin]

I didn't say it was your fault for picking the over populated server initially. However you have been given an option to move and its just as easy for your friends to move with you. You would then have a server with no queues.


I played in closed beta since July 2007. It was clear to me that destruction would be over populated so I choose to play Order. The rest of my guild decided to go Destruction on KEP, I still hope to join them in a few weeks when the server queues and stability problems die down but for now its much more fun to play without queues.

 

[Iorlas]

I didn't say it was your fault for picking the over populated server initially. However you have been given an option to move and its just as easy for your friends to move with you. You would then have a server with no queues.


I played in closed beta since July 2007. It was clear to me that destruction would be over populated so I choose to play Order. The rest of my guild decided to go Destruction on KEP, I still hope to join them in a few weeks when the server queues and stability problems die down but for now its much more fun to play without queues.

I would also have a server with no one on it..

 

[Cadelin]

I would also have a server with no one on it..

You already played with a server with no one on it. At head start all the servers were empty but guess what? They filled up! These new cloned servers will do the same.

 

[Iorlas]

You already played with a server with no one on it. At head start all the servers were empty but guess what? They filled up! These new cloned servers will do the same.

how do you know what will happen please enlighten me as to how you know these servers will fill up?you don't so please stop telling me what to do it really has nothing to do with you,you have not been in the situation so until you are keep it shut