News War with Russia

[Gwadien]

No, he knows everyone will do fuck all, and then he will do more. He is trolling.

Shooting a couple down will nip it in the bud, escorting them out, and then them just doing it over and over will make it the norm, a strategic problem for NATO.

All we need to say is "oops, we thought they were drones lol" A bit of sabre-rattling will follow, a few threats, then nothing.

I disagree. That gives Putin the chance to shift the blame (which he's going to do anyway but why give him ammo).

I really don't see the issue so long as reactions are good.

It's not like the start of ww3 will be planes flying into each other's airspaces. It will be like when Iran and Israel had their little exchange but on an infinitely bigger scale.

 

[Raven]

I disagree. That gives Putin the chance to shift the blame (which he's going to do anyway but why give him ammo).

I really don't see the issue so long as reactions are good.

It's not like the start of ww3 will be planes flying into each other's airspaces. It will be like when Iran and Israel had their little exchange but on an infinitely bigger scale.

No it won't, nobody, even the Russians want a nuclear wasteland, what would be the point?

Russia is nowhere near ready for an open conflict with NATO, even without America (who will likely leave NATO in the next year or so) They have thoroughly embarrassed themselves, and all the chumming up to China means nothing, China don't give a fuck about Russia, but I imagine they are enjoying the distraction.

Trump will negotiate a deal that heavily favours Russia.
Trump will pull out of NATO
Trump will not bother with another election
Putin will wait a few years, build up strength.
China will do what they like in Asia.
Then we "might" have WW3.

Edit, fuck it, if humanity is going to survive, we need a hard reset, I would rather we got that over and done with, before we have space weapons and even more ridiculous planet killing weapons. We are at a certain point in the Drake equation.

 

[Scouse]

I mean, he'll just stop selling us oil.

Remember that? That we're still buying oil off him?

Trump said he'd do more, but Europe needs to stop buying oil off Russia before he'll do it. Which I think is a fair shout.

 

[Scouse]

Oh btw. It doesn't matter if we get to space weapons. The nukes are enough.

I mean, if you think it's war that's gonna kill us.

 

[Raven]

Oh btw. It doesn't matter if we get to space weapons. The nukes are enough.

I mean, if you think it's war that's gonna kill us.

That's why I separate WW3 from annihilation, nobody, even the shaved bollock, wants Armageddon.

 

[Scouse]

That's why I separate WW3 from annihilation, nobody, even the saved bollock, wants Armageddon.

You seem to be labouring under the impression that the human race is, in general, sane.

I think sanity is a very rare thing. I include myself in that. I think we're all absolutely batshit.

 

[Raven]

You seem to be labouring under the impression that the human race is, in general, sane.

I think sanity is a very rare thing. I include myself in that. I think we're all absolutely batshit.

Oh, we are fucked, on our current trajectory. But Putin wants power, he doesn't want power over a wasteland.

 

[caLLous]

Trump said he'd do more, but Europe needs to stop buying oil off Russia before he'll do it. Which I think is a fair shout.

Because of course you do. Trump is just itching to punish Russia, like all those times he threatened them, gave them deadlines "or else" and then... did absolutely nothing. He's just weaseling around for any way he can look like he's being tough on Russia.

A quick search says nearly 30% of Europe's oil was coming from Russia before 2022 and it was down to 3% in 2024 - 3% isn't nothing but it's a massive decrease from 30% and gas imports are down 70% in the same time frame. Even if Europe stopped importing oil overnight (which is never going to happen because, for example, Hungary), Trump would conveniently forget he ever said it, pretend he was being sarcastic or he was misunderstood, get another chat show host fired, send the National Guard into another blue city to pick up litter because crime isn't actually out of control, blah blah blah

Trump's throwing these threats around like they mean something and people (like you, just then) nod sagely and say "oh yeah that sounds fair". When are you going to learn that his words hold no value whatsoever, especially in the context of punishing Russia? His actions hold value, and what he has actually done is fuck all to punish Russia and very little to help Ukraine.

You can and probably will brush all of this off as a hatred of Trump but name one thing he's done since taking office that has directly, materially hurt Russia. The most he's done is tariff other countries which might or might not have a knock-on impact (we all know the tariffs India got hit with were at least partially because he's sulking after he asked Modi to nominate him for the Peace Prize and he refused). He's talked the talk on a number of occasions but the last time ended up somehow with Putin the war criminal on US soil walking down a red carpet.

 

[Scouse]

Trump is such a trigger word for you.

 

[Ctuchik]

There is a reason trumps nicname is taco though.

Not going to claim he always chickens out but there are a lot of example where he's been talking big against putin and then for seemingly no reason do a 180 and start gushing praise over him.

Hopefully now when trump says his patience with putin is soon over he actually means it this time.
But then again, probably not.

Wouldn't surprise me if Trump says he's ready to punish putin a lot if nato does it as well because he doesn't think nato will go as far as trump "wants"...
So saying this is a safe way to gain points back home, and he can just blame europe for not doing enough. And to some degree he's right. We more or less only punish russia in areas that won't affect us too much and that's just not enough. Every time we pay russia for something they can attack Ukraine that much more. Europe have to stop giving russia money and we need to really start talking with the countries that feel they have to and help them get out of their dependencies to russia. Russia has few allies and they alone can not carry russias economy, not without massive financial risks to themselves.

 

[Scouse]

So, you basically said exactly the same thing as me there. But you had to qualify it with some "Trumps a cunt" before @caLLous hit agree.

We all know Trump's a cunt - but it IS a fair shout that we're still buying oil from Russia.

You shouldn't have to say "Trump's a cunt" every single time to get your perfectly valid point heard. It shows just utterly rabid tribal thinking.

 

[Scouse]

name one thing he's done since taking office that has directly, materially hurt Russia.

Hmm. Lets see.

Oh yes. He's stopped them steamrollering right through Ukraine because Europe can't.

He's called us on our lazy reliant on America shit and guess what? We've come up with the cash and investment so we can start to help countries on our doorstep ourselves.

Do you get it? There is no Ukraine without Trump.

That's pretty fucking material. America is the reason Putin hasn't won already. That's comes at a very real cost to America and a hugely material cost to Russia.

America's help is why China is helping Russia. Why North Korea is sending troops.

Europe is standing here limply with it's dick in it's hand whilst Trump helps us get our shit together after giving us a clip round the ear like parents are wont to do.

Wake the fuck up and stop being so tribal.

 

[caLLous]

What planet are you on where you think what @Ctuchik said aligns more with your post than mine? "Trump talks the talk but never actually follows through on his threats to Russia and he probably won't this time, either". I agreed with the post because... I... agreed with the post.

Most of what you perceive as "Trump's a cunt" is only in response to you, out of exasperation because you keep falling for his routine and have done since well before the last election. I think everything I said is true and pretty easily verifiable - the tl;dr being that he's made a number of threats to Russia and has followed through precisely zero times so his threats are meaningless.

When and how did he stop Russia steamrollering through Ukraine and how has he done more in that regard than the previous administration did in the first 3 years of the invasion? Trump said the war would be over 24 hours after he took office... all he's done is allow NATO "allies" to buy arms from them to give to Ukraine. He's paused aid, he's come up with insane mineral deals to "pay back" the US for the aid that had already been given under Biden before anything else would be forthcoming. Everything's a quid pro quo. The US has continued sending some critical stuff that was agreed under Biden but a hell of a lot of it has been held back or redirected elsewhere and if it's not him doing it directly, it's his Fox host defense sec. He brought Putin, the war criminal, onto US soil with the stated intention of making a deal on that day to end the war. Guess what? He didn't make a deal and Putin went back, probably pissing himself laughing at the immeasurable optics boost he'd just been gifted.

The EU has done more and more every year since 2022. It's still not proportionally enough but the headline number from the EU this year is bigger than the headline number from the US. Is it good that the everyone isn't going to be as dependent on the US going forward? Of course it is. Did Trump perform the manoeuvre in a constructive, "helpful to actually achieving peace" kind of way? Hell no. He basically yoinked all the funding and said "you're on your own, suckers". But yes, overall it's good that Europe is less reliant on them (I mean, the arrangement was fine for the 80-odd years that the US could be trusted, but whatever).

North Korean troops were already training in Russia in late '24 and you could argue that Trump has actually pushed the likes of Russia and China (whose components have been found in downed Russian weapons since 2023) closer together through his toddler-like approach to international diplomacy. And besides, that all has to be credited as much (moreso, probably) to the previous admin as Trump - it's the assistance they (and others) provided over the previous 18-24 months that has put Russia in a position where it needs the help in the first place. At the start of this year, they didn't suddenly think "shit, we need more troops, get North Korea on the phone". Annnnd the more cynical amongst us (not me, obvs) might say that the increase in help to Russia from other countries is a sign of Trump's weakness, not strength - they act with impunity because they know he'll never do anything and they'll get away with it so why not? Much like Netanyahu (who Trump is about to sell another $6.4bn worth of weapons to).

What threat of action has he given to Putin that he's actually carried out? Whether it's a fair shout (and I agree, it is) to say that Europe/NATO/whoever is still buying Russian oil is neither here nor there, my argument was that Trump used it as part of a proposal he knows he'll never have to deliver on so, in that context, it's totally meaningless.

To his credit, he did call Russia the aggressor the other day for the first time but even that was in a kind of secondary way - "Russia has lost more soldiers this week because the aggressor tends to lose more soldiers" and not "hey Russia, you're the aggressor, stop it, or else".

 

[Scouse]

Lol. Your triggered rage and invective is amusing. You literally can't see that I'm well aware of all the shithousery you're on about - and the fact that I've repeatedly acknowledged all these things makes no difference to you. Unless I spend 50% of any post whining about the orange man and how shit he is then nothing else matters.

But I've never seen politics in such a childish personality-driven manner. What politicians say and how they 'perform' is largely meaningless. Their actions are the only things that matter.

Point:

He basically yoinked all the funding and said "you're on your own, suckers".

And we stood up. Took notice. And in a matter of weeks we'd come up with the money. Money that we'd refused to pony up under the last Trump administration and completely ignored under Biden.

Action taken = result.

And then when we did that, he restarted the shipments and the funding that are keeping Ukraine in the game and Europe - who are still dickless and unable to support ourselves without America - without Trump right now - our borders are safe.

You're so angry and rage-filled you're even full of apologism for China - blaming Trump for them getting involved!!

China are involved not because of Trump you fool. They are involved because of of geoploitical strategy, western counterbalancing, economic opportunity. Hell they're sending troops - for that is what North Korea is - Chinese greenlit armed intervention with plausible deniability.

Trumps actions are to keep this going. By your own admission he pulled the plug briefly - and all hell broke loose, Europe woke the fuck up and we've a fighting chance - with continued American (and right now that means Trump's) support of becoming able to defend ourselves.

Credit where credit is due: WELL DONE TRUMP.

He's still a cunt. But don't fall down the hole of being so utterly blinded by hatred that it warps your view of what's actually going on in the world.

 

[Scouse]

Actually, you've already fallen down the hole. Maybe climb back out and calm the hell down.

 

[caLLous]

I'm not blaming Trump for China getting involved, ffs, I said they've been involved for at least 2 years.

However, Trump's nonsense tariffs are making countries re-assess their relationships with the US and a direct consequence of that, obviously, is them moving closer to each other and making partnerships they maybe wouldn't have done a year ago. You think China would've hosted such a glitzy summit in Tianjin for Russia and (especially) India last month? You don't think that was a colossal "fuck you" to Trump? Modi's always leaned towards the US (and away from China) but there they all were, reviving the dialogue between themselves. China and India - the two most populous countries with two of the world's largest economies, who haven't even allowed direct commercial flights between themselves for the last 5 years largely because of tensions on the Himalayan border, being brought together as a result of Trump's actions. Well done, Donald. A diplomatic tightrope that the US has been carefully walking with India for decades and he's just taken a big comedy pair of scissors to it.

None of that might necessarily have any impact on Ukraine but he's still responsible for them all being closer together than they were a year ago and all of the above gives Russia new and exciting ways of circumventing tariffs, along with several other more subtle benefits.

 

[caLLous]

circumventing sanctions*

 

[Embattle]

Holy walls of text batman.

 

[Scouse]

So then.

Zelenskyy says Ukraine has impossible choice as Trump pushes plan to end war

US president demands that Kyiv accepts plan that would mean giving up territory to Russia

www.theguardian.com

We're still buying Russian gas. The analysis at the very beginning of this has stood - Russia is going to get some land, not all it wanted. Ukraine is going to give up land, not what it wanted. The west is going to feel like shit along with everyone else.

"Nobody likes to suck a dick but we should just get on and suck it"

Calls for this to be implemented at the time were ignored. But looking back I wonder if it just takes years of human slaughter before people lose their outrage and their priority becomes stopping the conflict out of sheer boredom.

So that's how my position has changed. Were the deaths necessary? Absolutely not. If we were a more enlightened animal maybe we'd have stopped that faster (or been more intrinsically cooperative).

But were they inevitable? Sadly, I now feel so. Because humans are cunts.

Obvious endpoint that we were all going to be bitter about was obvious. But it looks now that it's about to be finally reached.

And we'll all hate it.

/Python: "It's just a senseless waste of human life isn't it".

 

[Gwadien]

So then.

Zelenskyy says Ukraine has impossible choice as Trump pushes plan to end war

US president demands that Kyiv accepts plan that would mean giving up territory to Russia

www.theguardian.com

We're still buying Russian gas. The analysis at the very beginning of this has stood - Russia is going to get some land, not all it wanted. Ukraine is going to give up land, not what it wanted. The west is going to feel like shit along with everyone else.

"Nobody likes to suck a dick but we should just get on and suck it"

Calls for this to be implemented at the time were ignored. But looking back I wonder if it just takes years of human slaughter before people lose their outrage and their priority becomes stopping the conflict out of sheer boredom.

So that's how my position has changed. Were the deaths necessary? Absolutely not. If we were a more enlightened animal maybe we'd have stopped that faster (or been more intrinsically cooperative).

But were they inevitable? Sadly, I now feel so. Because humans are cunts.

Obvious endpoint that we were all going to be bitter about was obvious. But it looks now that it's about to be finally reached.

And we'll all hate it.

/Python: "It's just a senseless waste of human life isn't it".

'You can't negotiate with a tiger when your head is in its mouth'

Seems more relevant than ever, it's just that the lion is Trump, not Putin.

Trump doesn't care if there's actual peace, he just wants the title of the President that 'solved' 4895 wars across the planet, a bit like he's 'solved' the Sahel crisis but in reality Al-Qaeda has grown and grown but so long as it isn't on his multiple TVs, he doesn't give a shit.

I do believe that the West could have played this better, from the outset we decided that Putin was Hitler and he couldn't be negotiated with from day one, which is probably true but we could have at least attempted to, if we allowed plebiscites in the East of Ukraine using the UN which is backed supposedly by Russia and importantly China, if Eastern Ukrainians wanted to remain a part of Ukraine then we could have used that to show why Russia is a threat to Chinese borders too.

You've also got Russia's war goals completely incorrect - they wanted to annex swathes of Eastern Ukraine and then have the rest as a puppet state, which absolutely could still be on the cards. If they have their election within 100 days, Putin could call them as a rigged election (I know right, lol) and then see that as enough to launch a new attack against a weakened Ukraine whilst Trump's response would be 'um er maybe Putin is right? Oh, too late, he's installed his own puppet government already.' OR better yet, if Trump doesn't stand again, and we get an actual pro-Russia MAGA Government that won't care if the rest of Ukraine falls.

After how many years in I think it's also massively disrespectful to the Ukrainians that have sacrificed so much not to be a part of Russia, and I think their reasonings for not wanting to be a part of Russia is as strong as Palestinians not wanting to be annexed by Israel, or WW2 Poland not wanting to be annexed by Nazi Germany.

I also disagree that 'this is where it was always going to end' 'we' could have done more, we promised their security after they gave up their nukes and we've categorically failed, we should have applied a tiny small percentage of the urgency to turn a tiny part of the UK industry into war-time, fuck - if we paid for JLR and their suppliers to survive why didn't we use that to churn out weapons for Ukraine and showed the rest of the European states that they're shit at helping so they'd also do the same, it could have been done. Instead (in true 21st century western liberal democracy style) we've said we're going to build 5 new factories in 54 years time. (Combination of paraphrasing and exaggeration).

The only reason one wouldn't see this as an almost complete capitulation is because you're either pro-Putin or you're somehow blinded to Trump.

 

[Scouse]

You're getting my whole angle wrong @Gwadien.

You lot care desparately at the rightness and wrongness of this all. And, intellectually, I totally understand - and sympathise with - those arguments.

However, I'll post how I see this - the complete and utter ghastly futility of it - below, one last time. I wasn't being glib when posting Python. It IS a senseless waste of human life. One that nobody here, or importantly in the actors involved - deems to care that much about. Not enough for it to have primacy over the other arguments. More it's in competition with. But that's how most humans are wired - hence the reams of evidence, the multitudes of wars.

No. The only reasons for my post were to A) lament the waste of life and B) to say "I told you so" - because I agreed with the military analysis that was posted very early on, was shat on here for agreeing with it, yet it looks like that is exactly what we're going to get.

Your "shouldda wouldda couldda" argument is pointless because we didn't didn't didn't - and were never going to.

The analysis was right all the way down to the whiny butthurt feelings everyone is going to have about this.

Anyway. Is it shit? Yes. But this was always the likely outcome. "I told you so".

So instead of whining at me - I didn't bring any of this about, (it's not my fault!) - have a look at yourself and ask why you were so blind to the obvious. And furthermore, if it was so obvious (which it was), why were you - along with the majority of humans - so dead set on making the argument for throwing away so many lives on it, like it was somehow the right thing to do, like years of horror were going to change the outcome?

Why does the human race continue to be chock full of warmongering attitudes. Why aren't we collectively doing something about that?

When are we going to stop this senseless waste of human life? This whole Ukraine thing will be viewed like one of the thousands of the petty little dumb border changes - and all the rage and depth of feeling that has lead to this war - these human actions - will be as meaningless as those that lead to the below.

When are we going to rise up above our inherent idiocy?


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI

 

[Embattle]

You didn't get the issue at the start, and you still don't.

 

[Gwadien]

You're getting my whole angle wrong @Gwadien.

You lot care desparately at the rightness and wrongness of this all. And, intellectually, I totally understand - and sympathise with - those arguments.

However, I'll post how I see this - the complete and utter ghastly futility of it - below, one last time. I wasn't being glib when posting Python. It IS a senseless waste of human life. One that nobody here, or importantly in the actors involved - deems to care that much about. Not enough for it to have primacy over the other arguments. More it's in competition with. But that's how most humans are wired - hence the reams of evidence, the multitudes of wars.

No. The only reasons for my post were to A) lament the waste of life and B) to say "I told you so" - because I agreed with the military analysis that was posted very early on, was shat on here for agreeing with it, yet it looks like that is exactly what we're going to get.

Your "shouldda wouldda couldda" argument is pointless because we didn't didn't didn't - and were never going to.

The analysis was right all the way down to the whiny butthurt feelings everyone is going to have about this.

Anyway. Is it shit? Yes. But this was always the likely outcome. "I told you so".

So instead of whining at me - I didn't bring any of this about, (it's not my fault!) - have a look at yourself and ask why you were so blind to the obvious. And furthermore, if it was so obvious (which it was), why were you - along with the majority of humans - so dead set on making the argument for throwing away so many lives on it, like it was somehow the right thing to do, like years of horror were going to change the outcome?

Why does the human race continue to be chock full of warmongering attitudes. Why aren't we collectively doing something about that?

When are we going to stop this senseless waste of human life? This whole Ukraine thing will be viewed like one of the thousands of the petty little dumb border changes - and all the rage and depth of feeling that has lead to this war - these human actions - will be as meaningless as those that lead to the below.

When are we going to rise up above our inherent idiocy?


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI

I think you need to go back and check my original posts and see the amount of disagree and facepalms from @Embattle

For the record from the pov of the masses, ww1 was a pointless war, ww2 wasnt.

This war is more like ww2 than ww1.

 

[Embattle]

I think you need to go back and check my original posts and see the amount of disagree and facepalms from @Embattle

For the record from the pov of the masses, ww1 was a pointless war, ww2 wasnt.

This war is more like ww2 than ww1.

Sadly, in this scenario, Scouse is Neville Chamberlain.

 

[Scouse]

For the record from the pov of the masses, ww1 was a pointless war, ww2 wasnt.

This war is more like ww2 than ww1.

It's only achieved making a point that we'll happily burn up lots of human lives and hundreds of billions of dollars (which we really care about more than the human lives) to make it expensive to "buy" land.

Right?

 

[Gwadien]

Sadly, in this scenario, Scouse is Neville Chamberlain.

Lord Halifax is probably more accurate.

 

[Scouse]

Sadly, in this scenario, Scouse is Neville Chamberlain.

You only think that because you don't get my point. Hey ho.

Anyway - what I thought would happen has happened/is happening. End of.

 

[Gwadien]

It's only achieved making a point that we'll happily burn up lots of human lives and hundreds of billions of dollars (which we really care about more than the human lives) to make it expensive to "buy" land.

Right?

So where do you draw the line? When Ukrainians are successfully 're-educated' and Putin looks further West - Perhaps the Ribbentrop-Molotov borders? You alright with Poles living under Russia?

Or are you saying that living under oppressing regimes is alright cos ignorance from everyone is bliss?

 

[Scouse]

Still missing my whole point.

Hey ho. I guess this is why we're such a warmongering species

 

[Gwadien]

Still missing my whole point.

Hey ho. I guess this is why we're such a warmongering species

Because you literally understand nothing about the conflict.

Military analysts said Russia would win in a couple of weeks, Ukraine surprised everyone, pushed Russia back and were fighting a more or less equal conflict since, which could be won with sufficient support (If you're going to continue down the line of agreement with military analysts).

That's why I've changed my view, because the reality is that they're on a path where they could be winning - numbers aren't everything, Ukraine is the plucky under dog where it's people are motivated to fight, Russians aren't.

Lord Halifax. Apart from the state of Ukraine right now is far better to that of Britain in 1940.

And for the record, I agree with you, it would be lovely to change the human race.