Embattle
FH is my second home
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 13,954
I do, it is just wrong for all the previous reasons given.
News War with Russia
- Thread starter Raven
- Start date
I do, it is just wrong for all the previous reasons given.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
I understand it fine. Well enough to know what the outcome was going to be long before you did.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
Whether I agree with the outcome or not is immaterial - this was always going to be the outcome.
The millions who feel like you - that this is wrong - are just as deluded as you.
Meanwhile. Fuckloads of people have died - more than had to - partly because people hold these very delusions.
Time to stop the killing, spend years whining about shit, pony up some land and wait for the next round. Wherever that may be.
Humans are such a retard race. Every single one of us.
Gwadien
Uneducated Northern Cretin
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2006
- Messages
- 20,342
'the outcome' is because of Donald Trump.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
As much as you love the orange man bad line - the analysis was done with no knowledge of future president and is based on the fact that the US was never going to fund Ukraine and prop up Europe forever.
It's selfish to expect the American public to fund a war because of Europe's longstanding tardiness. We're like generational benefit claimants and the fact that Trump has kicked us has been the only positive outcome of this whole fucking mess.
Europe is responsible for Ukraine losing - we've been freeloading off America for ages and the US has called us on our shit. The fact that Ukraine hasn't already lost is because of American generosity.
Europe is still funding Russia's war. It's pathetic partisan politics to lay the blame for this obvious and inevitable outcome at the feet of Trump. It's our fault.
We need to suck that dick now. Like we were always going to have to.
Gwadien
Uneducated Northern Cretin
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2006
- Messages
- 20,342
That's all MAGA horse shit.
America has greatly prospered from them securing global peace and dominance.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
You tell yourself that m8.
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2003
- Messages
- 45,433
- Thread starter
- #2,678
Scouse is right, however, that has been America's thing, the very last thing they want is the EU/UK militarily (and we will cooperate, some things transcend soap boxing) to no longer need the US, it would weaken them immensely.
Orange man, is bad...in every metric. He does everything for brand Trump, and the billions he has earned via Russia. He doesn't give a fuck about long term peace.
Orange man, is bad...in every metric. He does everything for brand Trump, and the billions he has earned via Russia. He doesn't give a fuck about long term peace.
It's not even about the territory - of course a proper, negotiated peace would end up with concessions of land (slow clap for "predicting" that) - it's about all the other bullshit in this "deal" that's tilted so completely towards Russia they might as well have written large parts of it themselves (in fact, some Russian speakers think the way some of it is worded, it's as if it has been translated from Russian).
Why should the invaded country have to limit the size of its military or concede anything militarily? THEY WERE INVADED. THEY ARE THE VICTIM. It's the aggressor that should be getting slapped down in that regard. All Russia has to do to invalidate the whole arrangement is launch a false flag operation to make it look like Ukraine lobbed a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg (which is a weirdly specific point of the text) and there we'll be, in a couple of years, with Russia officially starting from much further into Ukraine, replenished, having another go.
Why should the invaded country be forced to hold an election? Zelensky's already said he'll go when peace is achieved. Who's going to monitor the election? Who'll be there to make sure Russian soldiers or vigilante groups aren't harrassing people at polling stations or going door-to-door making people vote at gunpoint like they did in those bullshit annexation referendums they held in 2022? When pro-west, anti-Kremlin candidates start falling out of windows, who's going to step in and intervene? Trump? NATO, with Trump's backing? Don't make me fucking laugh.
And why the FUCK should Trump err I mean the US profit from reconstruction efforts it's not even solely funding? It's a complete stitch-up, concocted by Russia and the US, with no involvement from Ukraine, and they're being pressured to accept it or else. That's not how a lasting peace comes about ffs.
Loath as I am to post anything written by Daniel Hannan...
www.telegraph.co.uk
( https://archive.ph/oVPDb )
And some further education for the 1 person on here who bloviates about having figured it all out years ago.
Why should the invaded country have to limit the size of its military or concede anything militarily? THEY WERE INVADED. THEY ARE THE VICTIM. It's the aggressor that should be getting slapped down in that regard. All Russia has to do to invalidate the whole arrangement is launch a false flag operation to make it look like Ukraine lobbed a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg (which is a weirdly specific point of the text) and there we'll be, in a couple of years, with Russia officially starting from much further into Ukraine, replenished, having another go.
Why should the invaded country be forced to hold an election? Zelensky's already said he'll go when peace is achieved. Who's going to monitor the election? Who'll be there to make sure Russian soldiers or vigilante groups aren't harrassing people at polling stations or going door-to-door making people vote at gunpoint like they did in those bullshit annexation referendums they held in 2022? When pro-west, anti-Kremlin candidates start falling out of windows, who's going to step in and intervene? Trump? NATO, with Trump's backing? Don't make me fucking laugh.
And why the FUCK should Trump err I mean the US profit from reconstruction efforts it's not even solely funding? It's a complete stitch-up, concocted by Russia and the US, with no involvement from Ukraine, and they're being pressured to accept it or else. That's not how a lasting peace comes about ffs.
Loath as I am to post anything written by Daniel Hannan...
Trump is behaving precisely as he would if he were a Russian asset
This ‘peace plan’ is not only a tragedy for Ukraine, but an immediate crisis for Britain
www.telegraph.co.uk
And some further education for the 1 person on here who bloviates about having figured it all out years ago.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
Yes. Yes it is. I don't disagree with this at all.
But what did you expect? Did you expect America to go on funding the war in perpetuity, to push Russia (who has China's help) back to the original border, to help Ukraine become militarily independent, to be able to defend their own borders in perpetuity, and then walk away?
What sort of childhood fantasy are you living in? The world doesn't work like that.
"Fair" and "right" means fuck all.
Imagine a Europe that isn't a paper tiger, or rather one that isn't just an economic powerhouse but a political dwarf. One which, instead of freeloading off the US and continuing to fund Russia's war effort, had developed the capability to defend it's own borders, had the ability to come to the defence of it's nearest neighbours. What do you think would be happening now?
Oh yes. The same. fucking. thing.
Ukraine is weak. It owes it's current existence to the United States. It's getting preyed on by Russia, who without the US, would be bordering Poland right now. The US is taking it's share of the spoils of war.
Does it suck? Yes. Do I have serious concerns about the morality of all this? Abso-fucking-lutely.
Does history teach us that this is the way it generally goes? ... Hmmm. Let me think.
I'm not a fucking child. I'm not so blinded by utterly performative rage and hate that I'd delude myself into thinking that the outcome would be materially different under the Dems. People who think that are either lying to themselves or genuinely deluded. The former is preferable to the latter.
And, frankly, it doesn't matter how they feel. Russia doesn't border Poland. The Ukraine will still exist after this blows over. And we will owe that not to Europe, that borders it, but to a many thousands of miles distant America.
The America that everyone loves to hate, that's been guaranteeing our security (and our cushy lives) for decades - at their expense.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
So the fuck what? Tell me why that matters at all. Or why it should make the blindest bit of difference to the outcome.
Do we not benefit massively from America giving weapons to Ukraine? Not just Europe - but me and you personally. Does Ukraine not benefit massively from America basically granting it's continued existence?
I came back to say maybe I'm being a bit mean. That people will be understandably upset about it turning out like this, even when it was obvious it was always going to turn out like this. But this has pissed me off. Stop being fantasists. Open your eyes. This is how the world works.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
Thanks for posting this @caLLous. But you are aware that Bill Kristol - who hosts this channel - is Chief Of Staff to J.D. Vance, right?
My observation here is that it's healthy that this sort of debate actually happens in the United States. Even involving people at the highest level of government, and very publicly. Well done America.
However, if you recall - the observation way back was that nobody is going to be happy with the outcome. It's pretty much exactly it what's happening isn't it.
I don't disagree with a lot in this video (but some stuff I do) - and I did watch the whole thing. I'm not surprised. We're talking about a potential "frozen conflict" are we? "Continual attrition warfare under the guise of a peace process?" Well quelle surprise - this is what humans do.
However, what's been my consistent theme here. It's the "senseless waste of human life", right? And that the war is fucking pointless - just like all of our other wars. That the maps in Europe change all the fucking time - and there's a problem with the human race and the way we think about and approach war.
So, from your video: Bill Kristol, US Chief Of Staff to the Vice President:
summarising said:
What's the pressure? I mean, really?:
| Group | Estimated deaths | Estimated injured / wounded |
| Ukrainians (military) | between 100,000 and 1.1 million | 300,000 - 360,000 |
| Russians (military) | 250,000 to 1,163,170 (Ukrainian General Staff Figure this month) | 700,000 to 950,000 |
| Combined Estimates (media and other sources) | Hundreds of thousands to ~1,000,000+ killed (various estimates) | Hundreds of thousands to ~1,000,000+ killed (various estimates) |
There's the fucking pressure you warmongering asshole.
Unimaginable human suffering. Who cares if America looks bad in the eyes of the world. The job is to stop the killing. Stop it as fast as we can. It's going to start again anyway - so the goal, if we're even remotely civilised, is to minimise human suffering.
Preserving borders, sovreignity questions, "dignity" and "fairness" can all get in the fucking sea. Stopping death and destruction, as fast as possible, is the moral thing to do. Is the right thing to do.
And guess what? We're going to go to war again. It's the one constant. It's our defining feature. So "appeasing" Russia or not, I give much much much less of a fuck about that - and how anybody feels about that - than I do from stopping Ukranians (and Russians, and North Koreans) getting massacred.
You can add civilians to the above numbers btw. I've discounted them. Usually if you sign up to the army, I think you get what you deserve. But conscription and forced militarism is in play here. Nobody deserves any of this.
My next prediction. There'll be to-ing and fro-ing and plenty going on. But the only things that'll materially change will be some face-saving stuff on all sides, before it goes through.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
Hey. Even I can admit when I get things wrong. So, my bad, mmmkay
Doesn't invalidate the argument tho. If that's the only thing you've got about that argument - my question is: Can you?
It's not the only thing, but I knew it was false as soon as I read it - Kristol detests this administration and I would've been absolutely stunned if he'd been working for or with it.
"Nobody is going to be happy" - one side (the invader) is going to be a hell of a lot happier than the other (the victim)
"Nobody deserves any of this" - one side (the victim) deserves it a hell of a lot less than the other (the invader)
You're writing the above off like it's just feelings and "get over it because that's how the world works" but this isn't a war between 2 countries - it's one country desperately defending itself against another after a completely unprovoked invasion borne out of nothing more than Putin wanting to get the Soviet Union back together. And you think this shoddy deal would be the end of it.
You go on about standing up to Putin being warmongering but how much land would you cravenly give up to him without opposition? The rest of Ukraine? Poland? Throw in Lithuania? As soon as he steps foot in Moldova would you just throw your hands up and say "oh well, I guess that's part of Russia now as well"?
It's laughable to suggest the Democrats would've approached this in the same way - they wouldn't have had a clandestine meeting with Russian representatives in Miami and colluded with them to come up with a "deal" that benefitted Russia so heavily and they sure as shit wouldn't have put clauses in that amount to nothing more than the US skimming the reconstruction fund and frozen assets.
You still can't wrap your head around the magnitude of the corruption with this US administration and how that's leaked over into this "deal". I don't know what more evidence you need, it's totally baffling. I don't think I've ever known of anyone having their head so thoroughly buried in the sand about something so obvious. They're not even trying to hide it.
"Nobody is going to be happy" - one side (the invader) is going to be a hell of a lot happier than the other (the victim)
"Nobody deserves any of this" - one side (the victim) deserves it a hell of a lot less than the other (the invader)
You're writing the above off like it's just feelings and "get over it because that's how the world works" but this isn't a war between 2 countries - it's one country desperately defending itself against another after a completely unprovoked invasion borne out of nothing more than Putin wanting to get the Soviet Union back together. And you think this shoddy deal would be the end of it.
You go on about standing up to Putin being warmongering but how much land would you cravenly give up to him without opposition? The rest of Ukraine? Poland? Throw in Lithuania? As soon as he steps foot in Moldova would you just throw your hands up and say "oh well, I guess that's part of Russia now as well"?
It's laughable to suggest the Democrats would've approached this in the same way - they wouldn't have had a clandestine meeting with Russian representatives in Miami and colluded with them to come up with a "deal" that benefitted Russia so heavily and they sure as shit wouldn't have put clauses in that amount to nothing more than the US skimming the reconstruction fund and frozen assets.
You still can't wrap your head around the magnitude of the corruption with this US administration and how that's leaked over into this "deal". I don't know what more evidence you need, it's totally baffling. I don't think I've ever known of anyone having their head so thoroughly buried in the sand about something so obvious. They're not even trying to hide it.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
I've already covered all of your points multiple times and in multudinous ways.
But one more go - "Russia" can't feel a thing. It only exists in the minds of humans. But the million people hoodwinked, coerced and shipped by China? They feel, their families feel, just as much as the other set of humans, from the other country, that only exists in the minds of humans.
You hate them. I get it. They are lesser. And as long as the majority of humans can easily feel that way about other humans, then not only is it not going to change but it renders the current conflation utterly meaningless. Senseless. A waste of life.
Just like if you watch that video on border changes and actually imaging the exact same thing happening, with the same emotions, the same morality games that we're playing right now every. single. time. a border changes maybe that'd give you the actual context for this.
But you can't do that. Your identity is too bound up in seeing thimgs the way you do.
I don't see them that way. So lets leave that part at that.
But what I'm not is blindsided or outraged by what's happening right now. Why? Because, to me, and others like me, it was obvious. it's not like I don't feel what you're feeling or can't comprehend your point of view. But I've had plenty of time to get used to the idea.
So the outcome here is:
1) I'm satisfied thst the million+ deaths are coming to an end. This trumps all other considerations, for reasons I've spelled out but you can't feel.
2) You side with the neocons, keep the deaths going because nebulous "Russia" needs to be beaten/punished. Even if that causes untold suffering on people who've been forced into it, rather than a "Russia" that doesn't give a shit. The most you can hope to gain is a forcing back to old (not actually that old) lines. Before it starts all over again some time in the future.
Plus ca change, eh? Nice.
But one more go - "Russia" can't feel a thing. It only exists in the minds of humans. But the million people hoodwinked, coerced and shipped by China? They feel, their families feel, just as much as the other set of humans, from the other country, that only exists in the minds of humans.
You hate them. I get it. They are lesser. And as long as the majority of humans can easily feel that way about other humans, then not only is it not going to change but it renders the current conflation utterly meaningless. Senseless. A waste of life.
Just like if you watch that video on border changes and actually imaging the exact same thing happening, with the same emotions, the same morality games that we're playing right now every. single. time. a border changes maybe that'd give you the actual context for this.
But you can't do that. Your identity is too bound up in seeing thimgs the way you do.
I don't see them that way. So lets leave that part at that.
But what I'm not is blindsided or outraged by what's happening right now. Why? Because, to me, and others like me, it was obvious. it's not like I don't feel what you're feeling or can't comprehend your point of view. But I've had plenty of time to get used to the idea.
So the outcome here is:
1) I'm satisfied thst the million+ deaths are coming to an end. This trumps all other considerations, for reasons I've spelled out but you can't feel.
2) You side with the neocons, keep the deaths going because nebulous "Russia" needs to be beaten/punished. Even if that causes untold suffering on people who've been forced into it, rather than a "Russia" that doesn't give a shit. The most you can hope to gain is a forcing back to old (not actually that old) lines. Before it starts all over again some time in the future.
Plus ca change, eh? Nice.
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2003
- Messages
- 45,433
- Thread starter
- #2,690
Royal Navy intercepts two Russian ships in English Channel
HMS Severn headed off the warship and a tanker as they sailed west through the Dover Strait, the Ministry of Defence said.
www.bbc.co.uk
Just sink them. Pretty straight forward, at this point. Get it out the way, before it escalates.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
Stop it escalating, by escalating.Royal Navy intercepts two Russian ships in English Channel
HMS Severn headed off the warship and a tanker as they sailed west through the Dover Strait, the Ministry of Defence said.
Just sink them. Pretty straight forward, at this point. Get it out the way, before it escalates.
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2003
- Messages
- 45,433
- Thread starter
- #2,692
Yup. What are they going to do about it?
Embattle
FH is my second home
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 13,954
Royal Navy intercepts two Russian ships in English Channel
HMS Severn headed off the warship and a tanker as they sailed west through the Dover Strait, the Ministry of Defence said.
Just sink them. Pretty straight forward, at this point. Get it out the way, before it escalates.
Technically they aren't doing anything wrong, although the Russian spy ship Yantar certainly did and should be warned action will be taken if it happens again.
Whatever. You keep pointing to that borders video and saying it provides context but the first ~95% of it is totally meaningless. Practically nothing has changed since WW2, when a rules-based international order was born. Borders have been respected more over the last ~80 years than they ever were before. East/West Germany, the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia and... that's about it.
What happened a thousand years ago has no bearing on how people should react to borders being changed by force now and it's nonsense to suggest otherwise.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
Lol. The last 80 years is an anomaly for Europe, although borders have still changed and a fuckload. But the argument is about how humans interact - and the last thousand years is absolutely indicative of that. What's happened post WW2 in a very small part of Europe - when Ukraine wasn't a fucking separate thing - it's pretty much had those borders since about 1991 - is largely irrelevant to the argument.
History of Ukraine - Wikipedia
It's a fucking shitshow. And this is the tiniest part of it. That whole article is written from the standpoint of a Ukraine that's only existed since I became an adult. The whole of Europe is a mishmashing bullshit. And it stretches to the whole planet.
Ukraine is about 34 years old. Fucking Israel has more claim to legitimacy than Ukraine. And that's a complete shitshow too.
Either way. You love the death. You'd rather the death continued. Because: reasons. The same reasons we're a war-torn planet of massive suffering. Plus ca change.
The last 80 years of stability in Europe isn't an anomaly ffs, it's progression. It's the result of deliberate systems and norms that fundamentally changed how states interacted after WW2.
It's like saying road deaths going down after seatbelts were introduced is "an anomaly".
It's like saying road deaths going down after seatbelts were introduced is "an anomaly".
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 37,987
It's not that fucking stable.
There've been between 40 and 60 border changes in Europe since WW2. Ukraine's only been a thing in itself for 34 years (most of that mired in corruption).
What, exactly, are all the deaths for? What are you hoping to get by continuing the massacres? Because, if it's an "end to war" in any form, you're not going to get it. It's certainly not "justice" in any form a sane person could justify. So, what justifies maybe a million more deaths?
Embattle
FH is my second home
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 13,954
Embattle
FH is my second home
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 13,954
You say a few things that have a kernel of truth, but the majority has already been refuted many times by many people. You know by now, no matter how many times you post the same kinds of arguments about something, to then expect me to repeat myself endlessly.
As an example, you keep yapping about US aid to Ukraine, which has been largely non-existent this year - Ukraine Support Tracker: Military aid falls sharply despite new NATO initiative