News War with Russia

[Embattle]

Boasting about how quickly you wrote a fictional book:

Russia releases history schoolbook praising Ukraine invasion

Textbook apparently written in just five months is part of Kremlin’s tightening of control over historical narrative in schools

www.theguardian.com

 

[Scouse]

So, US and German press and US department of defence say it was Ukrainians that blew up Nord Stream. (And that the CIA was tipped off in advance)

Key details behind Nord Stream pipeline blasts revealed by scientists

Researchers in Norway reveal further analysis of 2022 explosions as well as a detailed timeline of events

www.theguardian.com

Quelle surprise.

Even ze Germans are saying it, more coherently than the grauniad

Investigating the Nord Stream Attack: All the Evidence Points To Kyiv

It's a spy thriller that has the potential to change the course of international politics: A year ago, a secret commando blew up the Nord Stream pipelines in the Baltic Sea. Since then, investigators have been searching for the perpetrators. The leads they have found are extremely politically...

www.spiegel.de

 

[Wij]

So, US and German press and US department of defence say it was Ukrainians that blew up Nord Stream. (And that the CIA was tipped off in advance)

Key details behind Nord Stream pipeline blasts revealed by scientists

Researchers in Norway reveal further analysis of 2022 explosions as well as a detailed timeline of events

www.theguardian.com

Quelle surprise.

Even ze Germans are saying it, more coherently than the grauniad

Investigating the Nord Stream Attack: All the Evidence Points To Kyiv

It's a spy thriller that has the potential to change the course of international politics: A year ago, a secret commando blew up the Nord Stream pipelines in the Baltic Sea. Since then, investigators have been searching for the perpetrators. The leads they have found are extremely politically...

www.spiegel.de

Nice, if true. But not the Norwegians and US like what Seymour 'bonkers' Hersh still claims.

 

[Wij]

And WW3 did not start:


View: https://twitter.com/phillipspobrien/status/1714265265431613846?s=61&t=iv1E1O7hVRuRm0TFdyUzyw

 

[Scouse]

And WW3 did not start

Don't worry, Israel's on that by turning off the water for 2.3 million palestinians.

I guess they're wondering how they can hobble the death count to make it look not nearly as bad as it is. But with babies drinking dirty water already it won't be long before they start karking it in the tens of thousands.

 

[Wij]

Don't worry, Israel's on that by turning off the water for 2.3 million palestinians.

I guess they're wondering how they can hobble the death count to make it look not nearly as bad as it is. But with babies drinking dirty water already it won't be long before they start karking it in the tens of thousands.

Ok. But that’s not nuclear war which is what the morons predicted if Ukraine was given decent weapons.

 

[Scouse]

Ok. But that’s not nuclear war which is what the morons predicted if Ukraine was given decent weapons.

Meh. I don't know the morons.

But what I do know is that Israel makes Russia look like Sweden.

 

[Wij]

Meh. I don't know the morons.

But what I do know is that Israel makes Russia look like Sweden.

Hardly. How many killed so far? How many rapes so far? What did Ukraine do to provoke a response like Hamas did?

I’m not excusing any war crimes that Isreal might do but to say it is worse than Russia is a stretch.

 

[Wij]

And maybe start a separate thread to talk about Isreal cos this ain’t it.

 

[Embattle]

And maybe start a separate thread to talk about Isreal cos this ain’t it.

There was me thinking most us were deliberately avoiding that discussion as it is both sad and futile.

 

[Scouse]

Hardly. How many killed so far? How many rapes so far? What did Ukraine do to provoke a response like Hamas did?

A) it's not just a numbers game.
B) what did the palestinians do to deserve collective punishment?
C) would Russia have turned the water off to all of Ukraine?

50 litres of water a day is the minimum requirement, says the WHO, the 2.3 million people of gaza are(n't) surving on three.

So, yes. Russia is a disgustingly criminal state waging an unjust war. I'm 100% with you on that. However, Israel is killing the prisoners it's got cooped up in it's concentration camp. The reason I've brought it up in this thread (and I won't continue it here) is because you really do have a, possibly quite justified, real, almost obsessional hatred of Russia. The Israel thing, however, should bring what is "evil" into a different perspective.

I'm afraid it could, and probably get worse, unfortunately. For both Ukraine and the Palestinians.

 

[Ormorof]

would Russia have turned the water off to all of Ukraine?

If they could, yes im 100% that they would

 

[Embattle]

They did sort of try by blowing up Kakhovka Dam.

 

[caLLous]

And they deliberately targetted Ukraine's energy infrastructure going into last winter. If they had the means to turn off the water they absolutely would've.

 

[MYstIC G]

should bring what is "evil" into a different perspective

So, establishing a world ranking of shittyness would contribute what exactly?

 

[Scouse]

If they could, yes im 100% that they would

That would make em as bad as Kier Starmer then

Personally, I don't think they'd score such a big own-goal tbh. It doesn't fit in with their long term desire to govern Ukraine. If they turned the water off, they'd never be able to conquer it. Israel has a different priority - they want the palestinians gone, they want the land to settle, and they're happy to commit genocide. If the eyes of the world wasn't on Israel then they'd have gassed the lot of them by now.

So, establishing a world ranking of shittyness would contribute what exactly?

I wanted to point something out to @Wij is all. He's got quite the bee in his bonnet about Russia, almost like it's a passion. But he's historically looked like he's got a bit of a blind spot for Israel's atrocities. So my only reason for posting that was to make him look at what Israel is doing and consider them in a similar fashion. Nothing more.

Hence me saying I wasn't going to derail this thread with a long conversation on Israel. Just wanted to make a point.

 

[Wij]

A) it's not just a numbers game.
B) what did the palestinians do to deserve collective punishment?
C) would Russia have turned the water off to all of Ukraine?

A) Yes, but it still matters
B) Like it or not the atrocities committed on Israelis were carried out by Hamas (with support from Iran and probably intelligence support from Russia, paying back Iran's support via drones etc for Russia's attack on Ukraine). Hamas is the government of Gaza. Therefore Gaza attacked Israel. It may not justify war crimes by Israel but it is a legitimate reason for some action against Gaza, which is more than Russia had against Ukraine.
C) Obviously, yes. As pointed out by everyone.

I get it. Israel / Palestine is not a clear goodies and baddies issue. Israel's hands aren't clean. But to state that Israel is not just on a level with Russia, but worse, doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[Scouse]

B) Like it or not the atrocities committed on Israelis were carried out by Hamas (with support from Iran and probably intelligence support from Russia, paying back Iran's support via drones etc for Russia's attack on Ukraine). Hamas is the government of Gaza. Therefore Gaza attacked Israel. It may not justify war crimes by Israel but it is a legitimate reason for some action against Gaza, which is more than Russia had against Ukraine.

The question was "what did the palestinians do to deserve collective punishment".

This is apologism in no uncertain terms for the war crime of collective punishment. You've written this very plainly.

If any other Freddy reading this was unsure why I decided to challenge Wij on the Russia thread about Israel - it was because of this. Wij's proclivity to turn a blind eye. His tacit ongoing support of war crimes committed by Israel over a number of years.

 

[Wij]

The question was "what did the palestinians do to deserve collective punishment".

This is apologism in no uncertain terms for the war crime of collective punishment. You've written this very plainly.

If any other Freddy reading this was unsure why I decided to challenge Wij on the Russia thread about Israel - it was because of this. Wij's proclivity to turn a blind eye. His tacit ongoing support of war crimes committed by Israel over a number of years.

And I replied that Israel had been given reason to react against Gaza and specifically not to commit war crimes. Not sure how you get to apolagism and tacit support from that.

 

[Scouse]

You've done what you always do - answered a different question. The question is on collective punishment of civilians, nothing else. Certainly not the separate question Israel's legitimate defensive requirements.

But that's the question you always answer, regardless of whether it had been asked. It's what you do.

And if it's what you always do, then it's a clear tactic to deflect from the subject matter - which is Israeli atrocities and war crimes. You take them off the table. And the only reason to consistently repeat that pattern of behaviour is to deflect the conversation. I.E. Tacit support demonstrated through a pattern of behaviour.

 

[Wij]

You've done what you always do - answered a different question. The question is on collective punishment of civilians, nothing else. Certainly not the separate question Israel's legitimate defensive requirements.

But that's the question you always answer, regardless of whether it had been asked. It's what you do.

And if it's what you always do, then it's a clear tactic to deflect from the subject matter - which is Israeli atrocities and war crimes. You take them off the table. And the only reason to consistently repeat that pattern of behaviour is to deflect the conversation. I.E. Tacit support demonstrated through a pattern of behaviour.

I think I made it clear that I don't support collective punishment of civilians, which would be a war crime, whether it's done by Russia, Israel or Hamas.

 

[Scouse]

In an answer to a specific question on collective punishment of civilians:

Like it or not the atrocities committed on Israelis were carried out by Hamas (with support from Iran and probably intelligence support from Russia, paying back Iran's support via drones etc for Russia's attack on Ukraine). Hamas is the government of Gaza. Therefore Gaza attacked Israel. It may not justify war crimes by Israel but it is a legitimate reason for some action against Gaza, which is more than Russia had against Ukraine

• "Atrocities committed on Israelis were carried out by Hamas". Check.
• "Hamas is the government of Gaza". Check.
• "Therefore Gaza attacked Israel". Check.
• "It may not justify war crimes, but it's a legitimate reason for action against Gaza". Check.

Clear statement condemning collective punishment of civilians? Really?

It basically says Gaza = Hamas so Israel is justified in twatting them. And maybe not commit war crimes.

You even qualified your condemnation of possible war crimes. The clear overarching thrust of that statement is "Israel is justified....".

So no. I don't accept your explanation. That alone (regardless of your historical pattern) is clear apologism.

 

[Wij]

• "Atrocities committed on Israelis were carried out by Hamas". Check.
• "Hamas is the government of Gaza". Check.
• "Therefore Gaza attacked Israel". Check.
• "It may not justify war crimes, but it's a legitimate reason for action against Gaza". Check.

Clear statement condemning collective punishment of civilians? Really?

It basically says Gaza = Hamas so Israel is justified in twatting them. And maybe not commit war crimes.

You even qualified your condemnation of possible war crimes. The clear overarching thrust of that statement is "Israel is justified....".

So no. I don't accept your explanation. That alone (regardless of your historical pattern) is clear apologism.

I said some action was justified but not war crimes. Quite simple really.

 

[Embattle]

Gentlemen this is the Russian War thread, you can't fight in here.

 

[Wij]

Gentlemen this is the Russian War thread, you can't fight in here.

Sir, this is a Wendy's.

 

[Scouse]

I said some action was justified but not war crimes. Quite simple really.

Nah you didn't. Quite simply it clearly demonstrates your partisan nature.

It also undermines your moral authority when making statements regarding atrocities - because your partisan nature means you disregard half of any bad equation.

 

[Scouse]

Sir, this is a Wendy's.

I never knew that was a thing.

 

[Wij]

Nah you didn't. Quite simply it clearly demonstrates your partisan nature.

It also undermines your moral authority when making statements regarding atrocities - because your partisan nature means you disregard half of any bad equation.

In case you've forgotten this whole topic was brought about by you claiming that Israel was worse than Russia. Everything I said was in that context. You pulled the 'Wij loves Israel' theme out of what I said and made the whole debate about that completely ignoring the context.

You accuse me of monomania about Russia but you plainly have a monomania about what goes on in my head despite your beliefs about it contradicting the things I actually say.

I don't think anyone else took from my words that I endorsed collective punishment of Palestinians. That's just the Wij in your mind. Stop listening to him.

 

[Scouse]

The subject and exact words you used are right up there Wij.

 

[Wij]

The subject and exact words you used are right up there Wij.

And your interpretation and forgetting what we were actually discussing is all Scouse-internal.