News War with Russia

[Scouse]

You're really not thinking it through. If such a thing was an acceptable defence it could be used everywhere. Ultimately you're in control of one thing in such a situation, your own life. So the moral question is...what do you do with it?

I think that's very far from the only moral question at all @DaGaffer. Very very far.

I find your stark lack of questioning over the "moral dilemma" over the existence of a law that says "we will jail/kill you if you find yourself in a situation where someone will kill you, unless you kill someone else and you choose not to be murdered" bizarre. And the fact that we live in a society where, morally, that's an acceptable law or question morally repugnant.

This isn't an A-Level thought exam. It abounds with real-world consequences. The fact that we can live in a society where that is posed as a "moral question" - and we base laws on it - should be ringing alarm bells.

It's barbaric to hold someone accountable for their actions if they're under threat of death. It's immoral.

Our whole thinking needs changing. Because that's not a "moral question". It's a boot that is used to kick people in a world that's not structured correctly.

 

[Scouse]

You have to deal with moral decisions in the society you find yourself in.

Yes we do. But if we're not putting more effort into fixing the reasons we find ourselves in those dilemmas in the first place than using moral arguments to justify our actions, then we're just lying about morality and using it as a tool to make ourselves feel better about humans murdering each other.

Arguments about the morality of wars like this are bullshit arguments. Because if you're not fixing the real problem, then all you are doing is kicking the can down the road, and doing the same thing over and over and over again, for each war, for each conflict, for the end of time.

This is exactly what we're doing.

 

[Gwadien]

I think the main thing we need to show Russia and the rest of the world, is that we're not infallible.

 

[Gwadien]

In other news, the UN is calling for electric tanks!

 

[DaGaffer]

I think that's very far from the only moral question at all @DaGaffer. Very very far.

I find your stark lack of questioning over the "moral dilemma" over the existence of a law that says "we will jail/kill you if you find yourself in a situation where someone will kill you, unless you kill someone else and you choose not to be murdered" bizarre. And the fact that we live in a society where, morally, that's an acceptable law or question morally repugnant.

This isn't an A-Level thought exam. It abounds with real-world consequences. The fact that we can live in a society where that is posed as a "moral question" - and we base laws on it - should be ringing alarm bells.

It's barbaric to hold someone accountable for their actions if they're under threat of death. It's immoral.

Our whole thinking needs changing. Because that's not a "moral question". It's a boot that is used to kick people in a world that's not structured correctly.

But its more immoral to kill others to keep yourself alive! There are no absolutes here, everything is about the maximum good for the minimum harm. You keep acting like all this conundrums have equivalent weight, they don't.

 

[Scouse]

But its more immoral to kill others to keep yourself alive!

1) It's a ridiculous question that's only being asked because of our much greater moral failing to not organise society in a manner that ameliorates the need for such idiotic questions in the first place.

2) Is it?

Gun to your head, "you kill this Jew, Gaff, or I'll kill you, then go to your house and kill your wife and children".

You going to go "it's more moral to allow my own death, and the death of my wife and children"?

I'm not going to ask you to answer that. In my opinion - whatever you decided to do in that situation is fair game.

There are no absolutes here, everything is about the maximum good for the minimum harm. You keep acting like all this conundrums have equivalent weight, they don't.

I think maximum good for minimum harm absolutely the way to discuss morality. But if we ignore the bigger questions before we start asking others then we've already lost the moral high ground.

i.e. - point 1) above: It's a greater moral failing to not enact real structural fixes to human society's propensity for war. And if we won't face that moral imperative, then whatever else goes in is really just wasted breath.

The immorality in your thought exercise is that it's reality, not just a thought exercise.

 

[Embattle]

Think it works out at like $48k or something, so probably a few years income for most Russians.

I was sort of making a joke of how the ruble is tanking.

 

[Aoami]

UEFA and FIFA have done something that isn't completely reprehensible for once, and banned all Russian teams from European and World competitions.

 

[Raven]

Russia are still bidding to host a WC though...

 

[Scouse]

I came to post about how this is a much bigger problem than Russia v Ukraine. But I suspect the below will be more interesting:

Ruble-Denominated Bitcoin Volume Surges to 9-Month High

The increase comes as the West's sanctions on Russia trigger a flight from the ruble.

www.coindesk.com

 

[MYstIC G]

Anyone else want 2 threads, one for what's happening and another for all the theoretical posturing?

 

[Scouse]

Anyone else want 2 threads, one for what's happening and another for all the theoretical posturing?

Why not split every single thread into "things we want to hear" and "things we prefer not to consider"?

 

[Scouse]

Thank god!

There are still channels by which Germany's gas bills can be paid despite the exclusion of Russia from the main global payments system SWIFT, an economy ministry spokesperson said on Monday

 

[Raven]

Why not split every single thread into "things we want to hear" and "things we prefer not to consider"?

Or, why not stop derailing every thread with telling people what their opinion should be. You have shared your opinion, people have given theirs. FIN

 

[Raven]

Anyway, as for Russian soldiers dying, fuck'um. The simple way to stop dying is to stop invading. "just following orders" stopped being a thing after WW2. And yes, Ukrainians beating the odds should be celebrated. Fascism (or neo-fascism, if you will) must never win.

Edit, if the Ukrainians just roll over and allow it, as you appear to want, then Putin will move on to Georgia, Finland, Romania, Poland and who the fuck knows where...Sweden? Unchallenged, where would he stop?

 

[Scouse]

Anyway, as for Russian soldiers dying, fuck'um.

You've shared that opinion twice now?

 

[Wij]

View: https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1498439607800967170

 

[BloodOmen]

View: https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1498439607800967170

That'll make pixie dick Putin happy.

 

[Ormorof]

View: https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1498439607800967170

There was a citizens initiative type vote online so they have to talk about it, personally im hesitant if referendum is right way to do it, it would get flooded with shit and misinformation tbh

 

[Marc]

I have no military experience so excuse me if I am asking a stupid question. However, it has emerged this morning that there is a 40 mile convoy of russian troops and vehicles. Why dont ukraine just drone Strike it all?

 

[DaGaffer]

There was a citizens initiative type vote online so they have to talk about it, personally im hesitant if referendum is right way to do it, it would get flooded with shit and misinformation tbh

Is it a constitutional requirement to have a referendum? I know it was when Spain joined NATO and I'm pretty sure we'd have to have a referendum if Ireland wanted to join.

 

[Ormorof]

Is it a constitutional requirement to have a referendum? I know it was when Spain joined NATO and I'm pretty sure we'd have to have a referendum if Ireland wanted to join.

Its not no, Finland rarely has referendums. The proportional representation setup means there's usually quite a diverse group running govt (also means things sometimes go slower as everyone needs to have their say).

A referendum for many would be a cop out of politicians getting an excuse to do something their parties have traditionally been opposed to, but lets see how it goes

 

[DaGaffer]

I have no military experience so excuse me if I am asking a stupid question. However, it has emerged this morning that there is a 40 mile convoy of russian troops and vehicles. Why dont ukraine just drone Strike it all?

Russians have probably got their shit together and set up a proper air defence screen. Apparently they weren't using their LO (low observable) air defence systems because they didn't want NATO to see them working (this was also an issue in Syria apparently).

We might be seeing the gloves coming off unfortunately; it looks like the Russians vastly underestimated the Ukrainians and are now going into overkill mode; there are some very disturbing reports about cluster munitions and thermobaryic rockets on the news this morning.

 

[Gumbo]

I have no military experience so excuse me if I am asking a stupid question. However, it has emerged this morning that there is a 40 mile convoy of russian troops and vehicles. Why dont ukraine just drone Strike it all?

Each drone can carry 4 missiles, which with a lucky shot could take out 2 vehicles each. They have limited drones and limited missiles. You have to assume that at some point soon the Russians will mount a defence of it's supply chains.

A 40 mile convoy is a very long line to defend from hunter killer squads armed with Javelin, NLAW and other man portable anti armour weapons. A 40 mile convoy in the middle of nowhere is just a big long line of vehicles as well. Those in the convoy will need feeding and the convoy will need fuelling. It also won't be moving fast. By the time that the first couple of miles of tracked vehicles has gone past the roads will be beginning to get torn up, after 5 miles of vehicles it'll be a swamp.

 

[Marc]

Alright cheers for the answers

 

[Deebs]

View: https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/1498550217083396098



View: https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1498579545498308613

 

[BloodOmen]

I don't even see how Russia recovers from this tbh, even if they do take the Ukraine eventually their finances are in tatters.

 

[Raven]

They won't and Putin doesn't care. He has snapped, and the only thing that will stop him at this point is one of his generals popping him in the back of the head. Which is unlikely as they are all at the same trough.

 

[caLLous]

 

[Marc]

Isnt there some anti putin russian politician that the west can start wheeling out on TV to try and get the message across to Putins inner circle? Or do I watch too many films?