News US School massacre

[throdgrain]

No, gun control is policing the ones that are out there. There's no audit of who's doing what with their guns in the States (including when they're sold on), and I'm absolutely convinced that if owners were concerned about police visits to check on their weapons, they wouldn't be so relaxed about access that their kids can get hold of them. Could your kids get hold of your guns? I doubt it.

No they couldnt. In fact today my son wanted his birth certificate, and asked his mum if she could get it for him. She said no, because it was in my safe. He said well havent you got a key? You are married!!

Of course, she doesnt have a key, I have to take to to work with me ...

 

[soze]

lol Gun control is just letting the police have em?

You are as guilty as everyone else. I said no one should be able to carry a gun. As in people wondering around with a 44 magnum strapped to their hip. I did not say they should not be able to shoot them at a range or keep them at home. Not only police are allowed them. Which again I see no problem with.

 

[opticle]

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/12/14/4486104/texas-school-where-teachers-carry.html

It's only a matter of time before a teacher shoots a student he thinks is carrying a gun..

 

[throdgrain]

You are as guilty as everyone else. I said no one should be able to carry a gun. As in people wondering around with a 44 magnum strapped to their hip. I did not say they should not be able to shoot them at a range or keep them at home. Not only police are allowed them. Which again I see no problem with.

I disagree though, the US policy of concealed carry warrants is actually about the only thing they do regulate, and is a good idea. These arent the people who go on killing sprees, these are the people who are law abiding, and have taken courses and have been issued with a licence. And typically, are the ones who would suffer from your regulations.

 

[TdC]

Have read most of this thread. Probably a non sequitor but I have to admit that if it was easy I would certainly own a gun or even guns. Which means so would a lot of other people.

really? why? (I ask because I personally can not conceive of a reason for which I would want to own a gun)

 

[Poag]

It's only a matter of time before a teacher shoots a student he thinks is carrying a gun..

Its only a matter of time before a teacher shoots a student whos about to rat out the teacher for XYZ, while the teacher says he/she had a gun.


Cmon we all know its going to happen.



And we all know this is going to come up sooner or later....

Sauce

No America...its....just....you

 

[TdC]

I want to press the agree button like 4000 times or something.

 

[Poag]

There are some excellent comments on that article aswell.

The school shootings are the legacy of bad DNA, passed on by our immigrant forefathers.
For a couple of centuries, America has been used as a dumping ground by other countries.
Those other countries encouraged their undesirables to leave for "a better life."

Once here, bad DNA from one country mixed with bad DNA from other countries.
Result: a violence-prone society.

 

[Poag]

Also...when you have Police who look like this, in every state

Rather than this in capitals.

Something is wrong.

 

[TdC]

totally agree Poag. once I had to crash overnight at London Gatwick, and had to hang out for a couple hours to get the early 5am flight out to Yurp (it not being worth the hassle to get a hotel or go in to LDN for a while in the short time I had to remain) so I made myself comfy on a couch in a corner with a book and a coffee. Got woken up and questioned by security forces looking like people out of Counter Strike several times (actually the same ones a few times): why are you here. do you have a boarding pass. do you have a passport. etc.

ofc that's an Airport so one must make allowances for paranoid idiots. I'd certainly not enjoy that on my regular walk about town.

 

[soze]

The American picture is SWAT which is like our SO19 they are not the patrol cops who pull you over for speeding. Same cops maybe but that is not the everyday uniform.

 

[TdC]

I'm assuming the Americans are the ones with the mirrored sunglasses? Just a hunch tbh...

 

[TdC]

actually there's only one. my bad for being an anti-generalized-american-racist :-/

 

[Mabs]

just RE; what Poag said, :-

Unlike the versions used by the SAS/SBS, all MP5s used by British police are single fire / semi-automatic only. Low capacity (15 9mm rounds apposed to the usual 30) magazines are also often used. Hollow-point rounds are used to prevent over-penetration - rounds passing through a target or wall and hitting a bystander.

 

[Job]

Let's get this in perspective.
America has 310 million citizens, the whole of western Europe has 390, so when dealing with events you have to compare against the whole of Western Europe put together, if the Norway shooting had happened in the US, we'd all be blaming the gun culture.
It goddam amazing how few shootups there are considering the gun ownership levels.
Simply the vast-vast majority of gun owners don't shoot anyone.

 

[Poag]

The American picture is SWAT which is like our SO19 they are not the patrol cops who pull you over for speeding. Same cops maybe but that is not the everyday uniform.

Yeah they are SWAT. But they are also members of the regular police force. Just like CO19 is.
As Mabs pointed out, all British police have semi-auto weapons. While US SWAT and HRT units use military issue gear.


Also look at what they are carrying.

The US SWAT guys are carrying a silenced Assault Rifle and a pistol in a thigh holster. 2 Spare Rifle mags, 3 spare pistol mags. Assorted grenades (flashbang/smoke) and flexi cuffs.
The Brit CO19 is carrying a Sub-machinegun two spare smg magazines (under his left arm in the picture i think), a pistol (probably some ammo but can't see it), flexi cuffs.

Lets not forget, these are police units...not paramilitary or military. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the US police being tooled up to a level i'd expect of CT Military units....its just that they have to be to respond to the threats they face.



Ok this has turned into a random ramble of police and the gear they use.

The point i'm trying to make is, the US police are seriously tooled up to a level that only the UK SAS CRW meets, for goof or for ill this is down to the threats they face. If the UK population was as gun happy as the US is i'd expect every police officer to be armed on our streets and more SO15/CO19 formations around the country. Rather than small groups of 10-15 officers in each regional force.

 

[Aoami]

Let's get this in perspective.
America has 310 million citizens, the whole of western Europe has 390, so when dealing with events you have to compare against the whole of Western Europe put together, if the Norway shooting had happened in the US, we'd all be blaming the gun culture.
It goddam amazing how few shootups there are considering the gun ownership levels.
Simply the vast-vast majority of gun owners don't shoot anyone.

Meh. Norway guns laws are very similiar to the UK. Breivik isn't a mental, he's a terrorist.

 

[Tuthmes]

Even then, lets not forget the USA recently hade a shooting at a certain Batman premiere.

Quick google:

September 1999 - a gunman opened fire at a prayer service in Fort Worth, Texas, killing six people before committing suicide.
October 2002 - a series of sniper-style shootings occurred in Washington DC, leaving 10 dead.
August 2003 - in Chicago, a laid-off worker shot and killed six of his former workmates.
November 2004 - in Birchwood, Wisconsin, a hunter killed six other hunters and wounded two others after an argument with them.
March 2005 - a man opened fire at a church service in Brookfield, Wisconsin, killing seven people.
October 2006 - a truck driver killed five schoolgirls and seriously wounded six others in a school in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania before taking his own life.
April 2007 - student Seung-Hui Cho shot and killed 32 people and wounded 15 others at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia, before shooting himself, making it the deadliest mass shooting in the United States after 2000.
August 2007 - Three Delaware State University students were shot and killed in “execution style” by a 28-year-old and two 15-year-old boys. A fourth student was shot and stabbed.
September 2007 - A freshman student at Delaware State University shot and wounded two other students at a campus dining hall.
December 2007 - a 20-year-old man killed nine people and injured five others in a shopping center in Omaha, Nebraska.
December 2007 - a woman and her boyfriend shot dead six members of her family on Christmas Eve in Carnation, Washington.
February 2008 - a shooter who is still at large tied up and shot six women at a suburban clothing store in Chicago, leaving five of them dead and the remaining one injured.
February 2008 - a man opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, Illinois, killing five students and wounding 16 others before laying down his weapon and surrendering.
July 2008 – A former student shot three people in a computer lab at South Mountain Community College, Phoenix, Arizona.
September 2008 - a mentally ill man who was released from jail one month earlier shot eight people in Alger, Washington, leaving six of them dead and the rest two wounded.
October 2008 - Several men in a car drove up to a dormitory at the University of Central Arkansas and opened fire, killing two students and injuring a third person.
December 2008 - a man dressed in a Santa Claus suit opened fire at a family Christmas party in Covina, California, then set fire on the house and killed himself. Police later found nine people dead in the debris of the house.
March 2009 - a 28-year-old laid-off worker opened fire while driving a car through several towns in Alabama, killing 10 people.
March 2009 - a heavily-armed gunman shot dead eight people, many of them elderly and sick people, in a private-owned nursing home in North Carolina.
March 2009 - six people were shot dead in a high-grade apartment building in Santa Clara, California.
April 2009 – An 18-year-old former student followed a pizza deliveryman into his old dormitory, and shot the deliveryman, a dorm monitor, and himself at Hampton University, Virginia.
April 2009 - a man shot dead 13 people at a civic center in Binghamton, New York.
July 2009 - Six people, including one student, were shot in a drive-by shooting at a community rally on the campus of Texas Southern University, Houston.
November 2009 - U.S. army psychologist Major Nidal Hasan opened fire at a military base in Fort Hood, Texas, leaving 13 dead and 42 others wounded.
February 2010 –A professor opened fire 50 minutes into at a Biological Sciences Department faculty meeting at the University of Alabama, killing three colleagues and wounding three others
January 2011 - a gunman opened fire at a public gathering outside a grocery in Tuscon, Arizona, killing six people including a nine-year-old girl and wounding at least 12 others. Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was severely injured with a gunshot to the head.
July 2012 - Masked gunman opens fire at midnight cinema screen of new Batman film The Dark Knight Rises, killing 12 and injuring 58. Suspect James Holmes is arrested by oplice and awaiting trial.
August 2012 - Gunman kills six people at SIkh temple in Wisconsin before being shot dead by police. Suspect is named as white supremacists Wade Michael Page.

Really, lets not even start compairing.

Edit: ff'ing font colour! Fix it :<

 

[Poag]

December 2008 - a man dressed in a Santa Claus suit opened fire at a family Christmas party in Covina, California, then set fire on the house and killed himself. Police later found nine people dead in the debris of the house.

Not seen that one before, thats fairly mental.

 

[Tuthmes]

But that's just it. Halve of the time you dont hear the stuff that happends in the USA. Infact if it has less then 5 dead en is just a "normal" shooting, it won't even be news.

Just have a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

That list is just long and sick.

Even though compairing and looking at numbers for argument sake is just bollox.

 

[soze]

Yeah they are SWAT. But they are also members of the regular police force. Just like CO19 is.
As Mabs pointed out, all British police have semi-auto weapons. While US SWAT and HRT units use military issue gear.

Also look at what they are carrying.

The US SWAT guys are carrying a silenced Assault Rifle and a pistol in a thigh holster. 2 Spare Rifle mags, 3 spare pistol mags. Assorted grenades (flashbang/smoke) and flexi cuffs.
The Brit CO19 is carrying a Sub-machinegun two spare smg magazines (under his left arm in the picture i think), a pistol (probably some ammo but can't see it), flexi cuffs.

Lets not forget, these are police units...not paramilitary or military. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the US police being tooled up to a level i'd expect of CT Military units....its just that they have to be to respond to the threats they face.

Ok this has turned into a random ramble of police and the gear they use.

The point i'm trying to make is, the US police are seriously tooled up to a level that only the UK SAS CRW meets, for goof or for ill this is down to the threats they face. If the UK population was as gun happy as the US is i'd expect every police officer to be armed on our streets and more SO15/CO19 formations around the country. Rather than small groups of 10-15 officers in each regional force.

US SWAT face people with AK47's and the like regularly (not legal guns) going into that situation with lesser equipment would be foolish. And semi-auto or not our police use Hollow Point ammo which means they shoot to kill not wound. The silenced assault rifle is suppressed not silenced and it is like that because it means they don't need ear protection to fire a shot off inside a room. Which means they can communicate better. I think they are under armed for what they can face I would want a gears of war suit to storm building out there

 

[Scouse]

Quick google:

Even including, from your list, this:

November 2009 - U.S. army psychologist Major Nidal Hasan opened fire at a military base in Fort Hood, Texas, leaving 13 dead and 42 others wounded

(What you gonna do - ban the military?)

Then in the last 13 years from your random figures the US has lost 0.000055143% of it's population to this sort of shooting.

I think (*gasp*) Job hit the nail on the head with:

Let's get this in perspective.
America has 310 million citizens, the whole of western Europe has 390, so when dealing with events you have to compare against the whole of Western Europe put together, if the Norway shooting had happened in the US, we'd all be blaming the gun culture.
It goddam amazing how few shootups there are considering the gun ownership levels.
Simply the vast-vast majority of gun owners don't shoot anyone.

...

 

[throdgrain]

Even including, from your list, this:

(What you gonna do - ban the military?)

Then in the last 13 years from your random figures the US has lost 0.000055143% of it's population to this sort of shooting.

I think (*gasp*) Job hit the nail on the head with:


...

Fuck that Scouse, just ban things they dont like Then when it happens anyway they'll just but but... it's BANNED!!

 

[Gumbo]

BTW The British police pic is a bit out of date really. They're far more likely to have a G36k as a primary now with Glock 17 as a secondary. It's pretty much a like for like as the primaries the US police have in that picture. Just sayin'.

Besides I'm not entirely sure what point was trying to be made. I would prefer my law enforcement to be out tooling the criminal, you don't take a knife to a gunfight.

 

[soze]

BTW The British police pic is a bit out of date really. They're far more likely to have a G36k as a primary now with Glock 17 as a secondary. It's pretty much a like for like as the primaries the US police have in that picture. Just sayin'.

Besides I'm not entirely sure what point was trying to be made. I would prefer my law enforcement to be out tooling the criminal, you don't take a knife to a gunfight.

I think they get to pick their gun. One of the girls I went to school with is in the Diplomatic Protection unit (I think) and looks silly with the G36 it is too big for her so she uses an MP5.

 

[Tuthmes]

Even including, from your list, this:

(What you gonna do - ban the military?)

Then in the last 13 years from your random figures the US has lost 0.000055143% of it's population to this sort of shooting.

I think (*gasp*) Job hit the nail on the head with:


...

Indeed, the military is a perfect example! Ask anyone (with a brain) that's bin in it. My grandfathers, my father. The veterans of the 48 highlanders of Canada(!), etc. Guns have no place in society at peacetime. It's dangerous and stupid. And don't come with the hunting or hobby argument for the 1000th time. I'm cool with it, as long as you dont bring the stuff to your house and leave the hunting to pro's.

Anyways, now you are using "my" random numbers (well a list of shootings) to come up with an even more meaningless random number of mr. Scouse? As if the list contains all the shootings happing in the USA in that period.

I even mentioned it in the next post:

Halve of the time you dont hear the stuff that happends in the USA. Infact if it has less then 5 dead en is just a "normal" shooting, it won't even be news.

and give a list of "just" school schootings in the USA. It has it's own seperate page on wiki and is 10 times as long as the rest of the world combined.



Also let me repeat myself again:

Even though compairing and looking at numbers for argument sake is just bollox.

I really don't care about the numbers. Let's go straight to the point. Having guns around is dangerous. Period. It's like having lot's electrical sockets 3 inches above the ground and your little kids playing Robin Hood with scissors next to them. After wonding the others, the shortest one named Scouse is bound to stick something in the hole at some point.

 

[throdgrain]

Trouble is Tuthmes, you're such a fucking anti-gun zealot that you can't even comprehend the fact that there are in the United States millions of perfectly law abiding gun owners who just enjoy owning / shooting guns and have a desire to protect thier homes into the bargain. Hell there are even hundreds of thousands of them in our little island. You really need to get a perspective on this.

Most of the shooters I know are very very conservative folk, who have been shooting for decades. And no doubt that suits your "leave it to the pros " stance. But how about if someone wants to take up shooting? By your theory we have no chance of doing so. You need to get this into perspective a bit, and stop foaming at the mouth.

 

[opticle]

Let's get this in perspective.
America has 310 million citizens, the whole of western Europe has 390, so when dealing with events you have to compare against the whole of Western Europe put together, if the Norway shooting had happened in the US, we'd all be blaming the gun culture.
It goddam amazing how few shootups there are considering the gun ownership levels.
Simply the vast-vast majority of gun owners don't shoot anyone.

That graph is gun-related murders per 100'000 - i.e. it IS controlling for population size.

So it is comparing fairly.

Therefore, it is in perspective..?

It goddam amazing how few shootups there are considering the gun ownership levels.

So we agree gun ownership is responsible for the large number more dead people in the US than there are elsewhere?

 

[opticle]

Then in the last 13 years from your random figures the US has lost 0.000055143% of it's population to this sort of shooting....

Also, using statistics like this is just plain wrong. It's like saying the deaths in Syria are inconsequential because they're only 0.000000000000001% (approx.) of the total global population. Do you feel that way?

For these sorts of figures, you want to control for population size, as the graph has done, and use absolute figures for comparison - not percentages.

Unless the data used for the graph is wrong, Scouse and Job have the wrong perspective. You can ignore the video game axis unless you think that's a factor here.

Basically, the graph says that there are a lot more people dead in the US, due to guns.

/shrug

 

[Scouse]

Guns have no place in society at peacetime

So, what do you do when revolution breaks out and you need to depose your government?

Do you ask them for your weapons back? "Please sir, can I have some guns to shoot at you with?"