News US School massacre

[Scouse]

Which it isn't, and hasn't been since 1945 by some reckoning

I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

Best thing that could happen is if the whole place was broken up into two sensible countries on the left and right coasts and wall off all the rest in the middle.

Whilst I would like to support this well-considered and extremely sensible point of view I, however, think the partitioning would just mean that both sides would start lobbing nukes at each other because:

I just think they're a bunch of self-obsessed idiots who The Enlightenment passed by.

That is true...

 

[Scouse]

There's a profit margin in it...

Yep.

 

[TdC]

I disagree with the shoes off at airports wank too...

There's a profit margin in it...

dont forget the no liquids over 100ml thing!

 

[DaGaffer]

I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

On what grounds? Having a lot of guns is irrelevant without organisation, a plan, and defensible territory (training is also nice, but that can come later). If "the people" rose up to take on the Federal Government tomorrow, what would they do? Most of the types of people who hate "the guvmint" live in the wide open flat bits of the US, which isn't great territory to defend against tanks and Apaches. The ones who live in the Rockies you can leave to rot because they're not going to march on Washington anyway (the whole "plan" thing). Be very clear; an untrained redneck with a gun rack full of AR-15s or even a million of them, wouldn't last five minutes against drones and tanks and satellite surveillance and F-15s. They are not the Mujahadeen; they're not tough, they're not motivated (except in the most whiny bitch way) and they don't have the deep organisation that a bunch of Afghan hillbillies have had since the time of Alexander (called a tribe). Their only hope would be if the armed forces came over to them, which is possible, as its the natural home of the redneck anyway, but it makes the whole personal arms thing moot. Real life isn't like Red Dawn.

 

[soze]

The right to bare arms and have a militia I always though was set up more for defending the US in its early years before they had the giant military complex? But looks at America and its giant military getting its nose bloodied in the middle east. With that many guns in the US and the fact that a lot of children are trained to hunt and use them. Then in the event of an invasion on America they would be a lot better equipt to resist than we would.

I know that far fetched but that's what i always thought the right to bare arms was for.

 

[Shagrat]

The right to bare arms

No-one's going to stop me wearing a short sleeved shirt

 

[soze]

No-one's going to stop me wearing a short sleeved shirt

LOL

 

[old.user4556]

Glanced at the front page of the Daily Record, something about "killer played call of duty".

Here we go with a computer game witch hunt fuelled by paranoid tabloid readers.

 

[DaGaffer]

Glanced at the front page of the Daily Record, something about "killer played call of duty".

Here we go with a computer game witch hunt fuelled by paranoid tabloid readers.

At this point, CoD is so ubiquitous they may as well say "killer known to have breathed in and out, possibly scratched arse".

 

[Cyradix]

 

[throdgrain]

Typical Michael Moore fateous nonsense.

 

[DaGaffer]

Typical Michael Moore fateous nonsense.

Oh rly?

Frankly, this doesnt affect me too badly, I'm quite a big boy, but how about people who arent so big? How about women? Old ladies, whatever? They're not allowed the right of self defence according to your laws, they've just got to dial 999 and hope that somehow the police turn up in time (highly unlikely).

Being armed to the teeth worked out just dandy for her didn't it?

 

[Embattle]

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/18/opinion/newtown-france-coste/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

 

[Gumbo]

Well she was shot 4 times in the head while she was in bed in her pyjamas, so it's probably fair to say that she wasn't 'packing heat' at the time. Or perhaps even awake.

 

[throdgrain]

Oh rly?



Being armed to the teeth worked out just dandy for her didn't it?

She was asleep and murdered by her son. That post wasnt worthy of you.

 

[Embattle]

Doubt it would of made a difference if she wasn't, although plenty of variables involved.

 

[Wij]

What level of gun control do you see as possible to introduce in the US? Perhaps strong police checks, no one with a criminal record gets a firearm? Checks with your own doctor as to your general and mental health background? A limit to only semi automatic handguns with a max magazine size? Perhaps the exact same regime we had here when Hamilton killed so many at Dunblane.

Do you think for one second that the US would entertain anything stronger than the above?

If you do you're incredibly incredibly naive.

Don't forget, the maniac who did this didn't legally hold the guns, guns are obtainable if you're of a bent to do this kind of thing. Gun control won't stop it, not for a second.

New York state already has laws like this. Most gun laws are state laws not federal.

 

[Wij]

A jump to the extreme to justify your position is a sign of weakness, young padawan

Reductio Ad Absurdium is a tried and trusted method of argument.

 

[dysfunction]

She was asleep and murdered by her son. That post wasnt worthy of you.

The point is that just because you own a gun doesn't mean you will have it available for self defense.

Therefore the self defense argument is not really a valid reason for gun ownership.

In fact you are more likely to be without it when you are attacked or have your own gun used against you.

I don't mind people owning guns. But it should be a lot tougher to go out and buy one. I don't think it's necessary to have every kind of gun imaginable for sale or have things like armour piercing rounds and many other kinds of similar ammunition.

 

[soze]

But if the head teacher at the school had carry permit and knew how to shoot then there is very good chance she could have drew her gun and shot him before he killed any children, the fact she was from the liberal left and hates guns has probably cost these kids their lives.**

If's and Buts get you nowhere and saying guns are no good for self defense is like saying are martial arts are useless for self defense because if someone comes into your room and shoots you in the head while your sleeping you cant defend yourself.

**I don't believe this by the way. But as easy as it is to make a silly argument one way you can just as easily argue the other way.

 

[opticle]

I always liked that scene at the end of Batman Begins where he and Commissioner Gordon are standing on the rooftop..

 

[DaGaffer]

She was asleep and murdered by her son. That post wasnt worthy of you.

Probably not, but I was actually trying to make a serious point. "Self-defence" is cited as one of the most common reasons for owning a gun in the US, but the effective use of guns in self-defence is actually tiny. Like, really tiny (0.2%). So this woman bought (several) guns for self-defence (she was a "prepper" apparently), that statistically were very unlikely to do her any good for their intended purpose, but dramatically raised the chance of her being injured or killed by those very weapons, because guess what? Even getting shot by accident is a higher risk per capita in the States than getting killed by firearms for any reason in the UK, and just having a gun in the house puts you at higher risk, especially if you're a woman:

Owning a gun at home substantially increase the risk of death by firearm to everyone in the home. It turns out that suicide is the leading cause of death for Americans who have purchased a handgun within the previous year. (data published in the New England Journal of Medicine – Wintermute GJ. NEJM. 2008; 358:1421-4). Like cigarette smoke, owning a firearm has deleterious effects on everyone in the home, not just on the one who purchased the gun. Writing in the peer-reviewed journal Annals of Emergency Medicine, Dr. Wiebe reported on a case-controlled study in which household were matched on a number of demographic factors, and then incidences of gun violence were compared. They found that people who keep a gun in their home are almost twice as likely to die in a gun-related homicide, and that the risk was especially greater for women: women living in a home where there is a gun are almost three times more likely to die in a gun-related homicide than men similarly situated. The risk of killing oneself using a gun was almost 17 times greater for persons who live in a home where there is a gun, compared to those in homes without guns.

Even if none of that were true, rigorous enforcement of gun storage laws and ammo availability as we have in the UK would have meant it was far less likely this kid could have even accessed these weapons in the first place, but better than that, if she hadn't have owned them at all...

 

[DaGaffer]

But if the head teacher at the school had carry permit and knew how to shoot then there is very good chance she could have drew her gun and shot him before he killed any children, the fact she was from the liberal left and hates guns has probably cost these kids their lives.**

If's and Buts get you nowhere and saying guns are no good for self defense is like saying are martial arts are useless for self defense because if someone comes into your room and shoots you in the head while your sleeping you cant defend yourself.

**I don't believe this by the way. But as easy as it is to make a silly argument one way you can just as easily argue the other way.

In all the shooting sprees across America since the 1970s, the assailant has been taken down by a citizen with a gun precisely twice, and in both of those cases the bad guy had already run out of ammo, and in one case the citizen was an ex-cop. Giving a teacher a gun and the teacher being able to use it on another human being, are two very different things.

 

[Scouse]

Owning a gun at home substantially increase the risk of death by firearm to everyone in the home. It turns out that suicide is the leading cause of death for Americans who have purchased a handgun within the previous year

Actually DaGaffer - I remember this from a previous shooting thread.

Suicide was *vastly* overrepresented in deaths from firearms. Guns are a good method to kill yourself and contribute hugely to the tally. However, I remember arguing at the time that if you haven't got a gun to kill yourself then you find something else. Suicide rates are comparable - just the method used varies.

Suicides shouldn't be part of the "gun deaths" tally - because you might as well add draino, hanging, wrist-slitting and all the other shit that goes with it...

 

[soze]

In all the shooting sprees across America since the 1970s, the assailant has been taken down by a citizen with a gun precisely twice, and in both of those cases the bad guy had already run out of ammo, and in one case the citizen was an ex-cop. Giving a teacher a gun and the teacher being able to use it on another human being, are two very different things.

Did you miss the bit at the end where I said it was a silly example?

And I do not believe that an average citizen could or should try to take down someone during a massacre. But carry laws mean that Soldiers and Police Officers officers who were off duty could be carrying a weapon. And in that tiny possibility they could do good.

But once again I do not see the need for anyone but the Police to be allowed to carry a gun and even less a concealed one. Again gun control not gun ban.

 

[throdgrain]

lol Gun control is just letting the police have em?

 

[DaGaffer]

In all the shooting sprees across America since the 1970s, the assailant has been taken down by a citizen with a gun precisely twice, and in both of those cases the bad guy had already run out of ammo, and in one case the citizen was an ex-cop. Giving a teacher a gun and the teacher being able to use it on another human being, are two very different things.

The suicide bit was kind of irrelevant to my main point, it just happened to be in the paragraph.

 

[DaGaffer]

lol Gun control is just letting the police have em?

No, gun control is policing the ones that are out there. There's no audit of who's doing what with their guns in the States (including when they're sold on), and I'm absolutely convinced that if owners were concerned about police visits to check on their weapons, they wouldn't be so relaxed about access that their kids can get hold of them. Could your kids get hold of your guns? I doubt it.

 

[sayward]

Have read most of this thread. Probably a non sequitor but I have to admit that if it was easy I would certainly own a gun or even guns. Which means so would a lot of other people.

 

[Madmaxx]

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/12/14/4486104/texas-school-where-teachers-carry.html