News Tottenham riots

[old.Tohtori]

Society is based on communities sticking together to defend themselves - for many years we delegated that power to the police but when they couldnt maintain law and order the communities took it back.

We arent talking about lynchings here - people just turned out to prevent trouble - no rioters going to mess with a whole community thats out on the streets?

That's the fine and dandy part of it, but realistically it's not going to just be a group of people holding hands and intimidating the rioters by looking defensive.

All it takes is one rioter to throw a bottle and someone, one of the many in a community, will get angry. A community is a mob waiting to happen.

 

[Ch3tan]

Nope, I blame vigilantes just fine. They don't help. Nothing wrong with community's showing some solidarity and staying out, very much wrong with drunken idiots and race groups out looking for trouble and trying to leave their local "community" to find it.

 

[rynnor]

Did you not read megadave's and my posts above? Eltham would have turned into lynchings had the police not stopped them. At least have the decency to read the information before calling it false.

You seem to be forgetting Enfield where normal decent people took to the streets - in Eltham all you had was a pub full of football hooligans - thats not the community.

 

[rynnor]

All it takes is one rioter to throw a bottle and someone, one of the many in a community, will get angry. A community is a mob waiting to happen.

You just described society - what do you really think prevents crime - its people choosing not to commit them.

 

[Ch3tan]

You seem to be forgetting Enfield where normal decent people took to the streets - in Eltham all you had was a pub full of football hooligans - thats not the community.

I didn't forget Enflied, I praised then and southall above - and the police were talking and walking with them. Very different to Eltham, who are being described as local lads making us feel safe by a lot of Eltham residents. It doesn't matter if 4 or 5 community's do things peacefully. It only takes one group to get out of control to start another round of major trouble.

 

[MYstIC G]

You seem to be forgetting Enfield where normal decent people took to the streets - in Eltham all you had was a pub full of football hooligans - thats not the community.

I don't think he is:

The Eltham lot were an embarrassment. My mate (a west ham fan) and his missus were trying to get to the pubs there for a drink and to show some community solidarity. They said they stayed less than an hour before feeling disgusted with the attitude of those there. They would have caused even further rioting, and quite possibly race riots had the police not successfully penned them in.

Enfield, and Southall show what a real local community can do to show it's not going to be ruled by a minority of twats.

Maybe we could all start reading the thread now, k?

 

[old.Tohtori]

You just described society - what do you really think prevents crime - its people choosing not to commit them.

Not the point i was making, the point being that there is no peaceful defending. On paper it may be, but if you take the law into your own hands, you're no better even with the higher moral ground and you will go against the law once the inevitable fight between the rioters and defenders kicks off.

Unless you mean that it's ok to take the law into your own hands in some cases, in which case all laws are pointless as there's no pick&choose. That would make looting and rioting a-ok too as it's just "part of society."

 

[Ch3tan]

Mood of the nation (well those that answer polls, anyway)

Anyone fancy some nice Wednesday morning facts & figures? The most recent YouGov poll says: "Asked if the police should be able to use various tactics in response to riots provoked some pretty gung ho responses – 90% of people thought they should be able to use water cannon, 84% mounted police, 82% curfews, 78% tear gas, 72% tasers, 65% plastic bullets, 33% live ammunition. 77% thought that the army should be brought in".

 

[rynnor]

I don't think he is:
Maybe we could all start reading the thread now, k?

I read it - I meant he was forgetting it in his arguement - sadly I have read every page

 

[rynnor]

Not the point i was making, the point being that there is no peaceful defending. On paper it may be, but if you take the law into your own hands, you're no better even with the higher moral ground and you will go against the law once the inevitable fight between the rioters and defenders kicks off.

I dont know about your country but in the UK we have the right to make a 'citizens arrest' with minimum required force for arrestable offences such as criminal damage.

 

[Ch3tan]

Oh Rynnor, please. A citizens arrest is all well and good on paper. Try and actually make one and tell me if it doesn't end in trouble.

I'm not disagreeing about your points on community btw, I just feel that now is not the time to stretch the police nor risk other violence. Toht is unfortunately right, it takes only a few too turn a peaceful group into a mob.

 

[Zarjazz]

Mood of the nation (well those that answer polls, anyway)

Anyone fancy some nice Wednesday morning facts & figures? The most recent YouGov poll says: "Asked if the police should be able to use various tactics in response to riots provoked some pretty gung ho responses ? 90% of people thought they should be able to use water cannon, 84% mounted police, 82% curfews, 78% tear gas, 72% tasers, 65% plastic bullets, 33% live ammunition. 77% thought that the army should be brought in".

I think that pretty much matches the opinions in this thread though from how vocal Deebs has been the live ammunition would be the first option

 

[Ch3tan]

So what we can say safely is that middle aged men with big noses that post on forums and answer polls are in favour of out and out war?

Water cannons wouldn't do much good tbh, they couldn't get close enough before the groups melted away to start elsewhere anyway.

 

[rynnor]

Oh Rynnor, please. A citizens arrest is all well and good on paper. Try and actually make one and tell me if it doesn't end in trouble.

I cant see the courts or any jury being sympathetic to rioters - it may be a hassle but unless you use outrageous force I cant see anyone getting in trouble in the current circumstances.

 

[rynnor]

Water cannons wouldn't do much good tbh, they couldn't get close enough before the groups melted away to start elsewhere anyway.

Absolutely - they should take down the blackberry network though - thats whats being used to organise this.

 

[Ch3tan]

It then goes from a community showing its strength to vigilantes out to catch people rynnor. Don't think anyone should be encouraged to tackle any looters.

Also I'm quite concerned how easy you think it would be, and that you cannot see the trouble that would be caused by one group trying to tackle another.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Toht is unfortunately right, it takes only a few too turn a peaceful group into a mob.

Unfortunate is a right word. Would be ncie if a group of people could do things in peace.

I cant see the courts or any jury being sympathetic to rioters - it may be a hassle but unless you use outrageous force I cant see anyone getting in trouble in the current circumstances.

They should. If you go out and kick a rioter, you should be punished for kicking a person.

Otherwise, as said, no point in laws and people upholding the laws.

Violence is violence, no matter how you sugarcoat it, or how little of a reason you have for it.

 

[Ch3tan]

Rynnor; from an experience point of view, have you ever tried a citizens arrest, or tried to stop someone causing theft or violence?

I have, and it's no picnic.

 

[rynnor]

It then goes from a community showing its strength to vigilantes out to catch people rynnor. Don't think anyone should be encouraged to tackle any looters.

Also I'm quite concerned how easy you think it would be, and that you cannot see the trouble that would be caused by one group trying to tackle another.

Nothing is without risk - in practice looters will just go elsewhere.

 

[Ch3tan]

More from my mate in Eltham, I showed him what megadave posted here, this was his reply: I was afraid that would happen. Yet again Eltham will get a bad name due to these losers. The joke is that I saw 15 white youths all with their hoods up heading into the high street about 5pm and saw them later trying to blend in with the "vigilantes". If the adults weren't out last night I bet it would've been their kids doing the looting.

 

[rynnor]

Rynnor; from an experience point of view, have you ever tried a citizens arrest, or tried to stop someone causing theft or violence?

I have, and it's no picnic.

I agree in normal circumstances its not worth it but in the current situation I think you would find courts and jurers a lot more sympathetic.

 

[Ch3tan]

I'm not talking about courts or jurors - you are getting ahead of issue. Making a citizens arrest, how do you envision it going.

Especially with a group of angry locals versus a group of looters with no fear?

 

[rynnor]

Who can say? It's down to people in the situation to judge - if they can do it without putting themselves into great risk good luck to them.

 

[ford prefect]

It seems to me that vigilantism is one small step away from mob justice and that is a very dangerous road to tread. I think that we would all agree that most individuals are capable of common sense, but when a group gathers and emotions are running high, the mob mentality is never far away and often it only takes a small thing to tip the balance.

 

[rynnor]

It seems to me that vigilantism is one small step away from mob justice and that is a very dangerous road to tread. I think that we would all agree that most individuals are capable of common sense, but when a group gathers and emotions are running high, the mob mentality is never far away and often it only takes a small thing to tip the balance.

I think that very much depends on the makeup of the group - its a very english attitude to fear 'mobs' because they are generally formed by the lawless here - we have little experience of good 'mobs'.

 

[Deebs]

So what we can say safely is that middle aged men with big noses that post on forums and answer polls are in favour of out and out war?

Water cannons wouldn't do much good tbh, they couldn't get close enough before the groups melted away to start elsewhere anyway.

Who said anything about war? I want these scumbag to be taught a lesson. Shoot a few of the scum and they will have 2nd thoughts when they realise the consequences of their actions.

Bet you would be singing a different tune if say, your entire house was burnt to the ground by a few 15yr old scumbags.

 

[Ch3tan]

Tony, it was a joke mate

I don't think we should using violence to answer violence no. I was angry on that first night of Croydon looting, but decisions like that should never be made in anger. The police did a good job last night. If you think hurting these looters is going to do anything but distance them from society further then you are mistaken.

 

[Mabs]

sadly it has kind of reached the point of 'stop them looting etc now' and worry about the hows and whys later

so yea, shoot them

 

[Lollie]

isnt shooting people what started this thing in the first place?

 

[soze]

Tony, it was a joke mate

I don't think we should using violence to answer violence no. I was angry on that first night of Croydon looting, but decisions like that should never be made in anger. The police did a good job last night. If you think hurting these looters is going to do anything but distance them from society further then you are mistaken.

The problem is we have let them get away with far too much. The police can not sustain these numbers on the streets so the chavs go away for a few weeks let everything settle down then just raid another electronics super store 300 strong knowing the police will just have to stand and watch.

If the results of this IPCC investigations say anything other than justifiable shooting even armed police will start to be laughed at. *If the guy was removing the handgun as instructed (thumb and forefinger ect) and still got shot the officer should be found guilty. If he pulled out the gun holding it in a shooting position he deserved to be shot. If we end up telling police they have to wait until the gun is aimed at them or even worse wait until a shot is fired to react we might as well pull them from the street now.

I was stopped several times growing up by CO19 and Operation Trident and they leave you is no doubt as to what you need to do.