Threads about freeshards

[Seakul]

I give up and turning in for the night, have fun in life if you believe you can steal other peoples ideas

"GPL" "Open Source Emulating Software"

 

[Matriarch|Sneakers]

Well, I heard alot of diffrent statements regarding this matter, some ppl I talked to claim as Tears that it is illegal and some say the same thing as Seakul.

But fact is, Mythic have not sued any freeshard yet, and probably will not in the future. If they could sue, they would. Since they are infact loosing potential money over the freeshards, since about 2k-3k ppl plays on them world-wide. Now that is quiet alot of money.

No point quoting lots of legal-extracts from the CoC/etc that you don't even understand yourself to prove your points. As I said, if Mythic could sue, they probably would have already.

 

[soze]

I think the way to look at this is if Mythic choose to close the servers legally they would have every right to force them to close and would get legal support. Just becase Mythic dont close them it dose not make it legal.

Well, I heard alot of diffrent statements regarding this matter, some ppl I talked to claim as Tears that it is illegal and some say the same thing as Seakul.

But fact is, Mythic have not sued any freeshard yet, and probably will not in the future. If they could sue, they would. Since they are infact loosing potential money over the freeshards, since about 2k-3k ppl plays on them world-wide. Now that is quiet alot of money.

No point quoting lots of legal-extracts from the CoC/etc that you don't even understand yourself to prove your points. As I said, if Mythic could sue, they probably would have already.

If its true that mythic are picking up idea and maybe development from free shards thats maybe why they let them live.

 

[Dallas]

I remember the first serious rvr shard, dark ages, the admin there got contacted by mythic about it, he chose to ignore it.. He later then closed the serverv because of other reasons..

So could they sue, yes definetly, would they win, maybe.. Would they gain anything from it no, other than a bunch of very angry players, a cold shoulder from the developers. And basically just bad reputation..

Theyve taken several ideas that came on freeshards first, instances for example have been on freeshards for a long time, introduced in catacombs, ridable horses, introduced in DR.

+ it attracts new players, aswell as old players.. They give it a whirl, then go on live server..

The only bad thing is mythic wouldent take the full step and make a insta50 like server themselves, wich people have been asking for, for god knows how long..

 

[~Latency~]

If Mythic/Goa don't make ANY moves to close them, why aren't people allowed to play on them? It's stupid - they have existed for a long time and nothing has been done

 

[Etaew]

I'm not quite sure what Requiel is talking about when he says freeshards "stealing Mythic's IP from them" you can't take an IP..... and Dawn of Light does not go about replacing IPs, on previous versions of the freeshard launcher options were in place for connection to official servers, to support integration and encourage people to play on both, for unknown reasons this was removed in later versions.

Connecting to a freeshard server is in no way modifying any file within the daoc installation, it is just passing the right arguments into the right files.

Therefore modifications accusations there are unfounded, unless you really think passing custom arguments into a file is considered a modification.

The EULA only appears on the login screen, users when connecting to freeshards do not use the login screen, and are therefore not presented with any EULA to agree to, and therefore cannot be held responsible for their actions.

Also does installing an application with an EULA to agree to on the install itself make you responsible for all those who use your machines?

The EULA states that you should not connect to any other server but those officially provided, in doing so it is the users and not the freeshards which are failing the EULA.

In the end the EULA isn't a law, or something that can be legally binding, it entitles the holders of the EULA to take action within the game world if they threaten so in the EULA.

Dawn of Light is under the GPL which brings about some problems of it's own, the GPL states that those using software developed under it can do as they wish with it, thus limiting the control of which Dawn of Light has over it's software users. Although there are a few ways mentioned below. However being an open source project does not make it legal, it just makes the source usable and viewable by all.

People might not quite understand what Dawn of Light is, it is not a copy of the server code and databases, every single aspect of the server, from the databases, to the handling of the code, the commands, the scripts and the quests have been created by Dawn of Light and it's community. It has spent the last 3 years and 2500 registered (not active) members to developer this from the ground up.

Dawn of Light is a project which supports packets being sent and received, illegal software is not being distributed, and nothing is obtained by Mythic or GOA and included.

Dawn of Light has always been extremely cautious about attention grabs of a number of servers, and has always delt with those that have been reported doing so swiftly, backed up by threats of removal from the freeshard launcher and lists.

Dawn of Light has also been cautious about any modification of client files, even the smallest changes are frowned upon and not encouraged, for instance, changing a small file to allow the newest clients access to the old frontier zones.

Following guidelines like this Dawn of Light has kept away from publicly angering or trying to "leach" paying subscribers away from live servers.

Dawn of Light has always had the policy that it's servers should be based off custom content and unique features that aren't found on live servers, and that those who seek live server features should play there.

I know a large number of people personally who have started out playing on freeshards and gone on to play live servers for greater numbers and enhanced content, Mythic has also seen this, and when responding to a request by a university shard for permission stated this. Freeshard servers are a valuable advertising tool for DAOC, the worlds within freeshard servers are often bland and basic with very little support in game, service companies are often judged on the level of assistance given when things go wrong, compared with live and the content and support there. The users of freeshards are those that usually don't know about live servers (who soon do) and those that would not play on or pay for live servers. Those without money, those disillusioned with various changes and boredom for those who want to instantly become powerful and into the action, in essence no real loss to Mythic and GOA.

I also know a number of people who have bought the game box, specificly to play on freeshards, thus still giving the money to the real game developers. GOA and Mythic have made the situation worse by having unrestricted file sizes on patch servers, and full client downloads.

A glance back at the stats for the highest recorded player count since records began a few months ago of 1164 players across all servers, is no real dent in the server numbers for the European servers, since freeshards are global and not country specific.

The hosting of these servers around various countries bring into play various copyright rules, Russia, Czech Republic, Spain, Italy etc. for example the DCMA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) is only valid in the US.

A number of online game websites reference the Dawn of Light project for insights into gaming, packets and design. These discoveries and designs are mostly used without any malicious intent.

Disclaimers on the Dawn of Light site read:

"Dark Age Of Camelot"©, DAOC©, "Shrouded Isles"©, "Trials of Atlantis" (TOA)© refered to anywhere on this webpages and/or the forum are copyrighted by their respective owner.

"Dawn Of Light" further refered to as "DOL" is provided to you "as-is" and "with all faults". The authors makes no representations or warranties of any kind concerning quality, safety, or suitability of DOL. The authors will in no event be liable for any indirect, punitive, special, incidental or consequential damages however they my arise through the usage of DOL.

The user of DOL acknowledges, that through the use of DOL he/she might violate the EULA (End User License Agreement) and/or other written or implied legal constraints of DAOC© or other software. The authors of DOL can in no event be held liable for such violations. The authors further can in no event be held liable for any sanctions against the user that might arise from the usage of DOL in any way.

DOL and all the information on the website and the forum is provided to you for INFORMATIONAL purposes ONLY! We strongly disapprove of any illegal activities and will NOT take any responsibility for your actions!

By downloading and/or using DOL you agree to this disclaimer!

I'm also not at liberty to discuss some of the other information from Mythic targeted towards Dawn of Light, but believe me they are well aware of Dawn of Light, and have been since it started development.

To close:

Dawn of Light does not support posting on public forums frequented by subscription paying players, nor does Dawn of Light support advertising in any shape or form to gain members from forums frequented by subscription paying players. Dawn of Light believes those kind of posts are best suited to individual freeshard forums, or community forums not frequented by subscription paying players.

When I used to visit these forums I noticed a very heavy handed approach to any mention of freeshards, which to some degree is ok, it just depends on the forums owners and if they are a subsidiary of GOA or an independant entity. Who makes the policy on what posts and thread makes it onto these forums, is it GOA who dictates this and the forum hosts bow down in order to keep the official presence on the unofficial forums? I remember a story I was told by a previous moderator of these forums, when he started investigating Dawn of Light and brought the discussion up with the other moderators, he was removed, and this was after many years of work here.

Freeshards are a breath of fresh air, and pace, which allow for custom scenarios not limited by the design of the server types on the live servers.

There are many benefits between the toleration of Dawn of Light by official DAOC servers, as well as some down sides.

Some companies choose to embrace the "modding" community and draw from the customisation and uniqueness, and some do not.

 

[Syri]

The google adds for radar are beyond our control.
As much as everybody loves using it, and whines to fuck when banned, nobody seems to want to support FH by donating for its continued operation. Thus ads are required, these are selected by google.
While it is possible to remove specific ads if they're reported with the IP that appears in the ad, its simply not feasable to do this unless someone reports an add.

surely as a site that aims to protect the terms of goa's contract, the moderators should also be reporting these adds then, if that does indeed get them removed? else seeking an advertising partner that does not attempt to exploit the terms of the game they try to advertise for?
Just seems a little odd to me, that's all, purely as a personal observation, that so many of these adds crop up, get complaints, and get a response of "we can't help it" when you just said yourself that there is a method of getting them removed...

 

[Morchaoron]

Dallas, you have a right to free speach, when your in your own house and nobody can hear you. However you are a guest on these forums, who has the privilegde of posting. Therefore to save ourselves from legal action (and because we can) FH limits your freedom of speach and so you may not advertise freeshards.

The google adds for radar are beyond our control.

ahh hmmmm, so if I want total freedom of speech on FH I will have to do it through the ads

 

[Succi]

freeshard 1 - 0 fh



close thread? :|

 

[Infanity]

its purely a money issue from goa/mythics side... afraid to loose more of a already fast shrinking playerbase aka subs each month....

Well ofcourse it is when its the fucking business.

How would you like it for example you design something, Then some cvnt gives it away for free ?

 

[IainC]

I'm not quite sure what Requiel is talking about when he says freeshards "stealing Mythic's IP from them" you can't take an IP..... and Dawn of Light does not go about replacing IPs, on previous versions of the freeshard launcher options were in place for connection to official servers, to support integration and encourage people to play on both, for unknown reasons this was removed in later versions.

In the context of my answer IP stands for Intellectual Property not Internet Protocol.

Regardless of the licence that the freeshard software is distributed under, it is using Mythic's game design, art and proprietary concepts that are protected under copyright law. The DMCA may only be enforcable in the US but almost every country in the world is signed up to the Berne Convention which sets a minimum standard for international copyright law.

 

[Pirkel]

freeshard 1 - 0 fh



close thread? :|

freeshard 1 - 2 fh


close thread?

 

[Etaew]

I see you've jumped on the first thing I've posted at the expense of the rest, well, Ok.

It's suprising that for people that are so agressive and heavy handed to anything to do with shards, have not presented any formal or informal discussion invitation to the Dawn of Light development team, who have always been open to hear what the creators of the game they admire so much that they emulate have to say. In short, if requests were made to halt development when it started, most likely complience would have happened, now development is advanced, chances are slim. And as for the Official DAOC team It seems to be a push under the carpet job.

Running a freeshard server then is, in your opinion the stealing of Intellectual property, the ideas behind DAOC are company property? How do you then link a freeshard server to this? the freeshard server simply sends packets to a client.

Then making videos of DAOC, screenshots, other animations and media also fit into this category?

Something like a guildname utilising anything from DAOC is considered stealing the IP?

Anything using the DAOC idea is reserved from use or thought?

Isn't this used more in conjuction with commerical applications? and shards are not, for the various reasons I've posted above. Intellectual property is around for fairness to the developers of a technology to receive all the income or percentage generated out of it, since freeshards do not, it isn't an issue.

Regarding Mythics IP's in this matter, surely this relates more to the graphical side of the client, and not the server functions, or does an idea prevent everyone from thinking of, or using the idea, but implementing it in their own way?

Shards are built around the framework of sending and receiving packets, as mentioned beforehand, not expressly to copy anything.

The Berne Convention is for the protection of literary and artistic works, are freeshards stealing artistic works? character models? using them elsewhere? no. In other words, freeshards do not use the developments of Mythic, they create their own, unless you are trying to designate the design of DAOC, which is emulated many such times on the internet and not limited to DAOC. If you are talking about the usage of models and such, it's the original client, nothing is being stolen.

Any of this Berne Convention or Intellectual property notices in any of the documentation that comes with DAOC? Any information at all availiable on the policies? Not that I've seen.

Database tables and data are considered literary works, yet these are not accessed in any way, other then those provided by Mythic on herald pages. Which you presume, they give you free reign with.

As with any rational thought the distribution of a product so openly as DAOC and it's ideas, the creators are implicitly a non-exclusive licence to those who can access it, since copies of those work do end up on users machines, mostly without encryption or compilation, for example the image files for the styles and abilities.

A definition of copyright is:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“the exclusive right relating to work embodying intellectual content (i.e. the product of the intellect) to do or to authorize others to do certain acts in relation to that work, which acts represent in the case of each type of work, the manner in which that work can be exploited for personal gain or profit”

[/FONT]Freeshards are exploiting things for personal gain and profit?

A thought is, because someone can make money out of something, they should stop people who won't make money out of it? and won't make them lose money out of it.

I don't think anyone disagrees that if you create an idea, you have a right to oversee how it is used, but I think blanket stubborn policy is standing in the way of creativeness, especially in this open source world, where the trend is to write it yourself.

On top of all of that, anyone running a DAoC server is using Mythic's intellectual property and their code which is protected by copyright law.

Absolutely untrue, anyone running a DAOC server is NOT using Mythic's code.

 

[xGenocidex]

Interesting read indeed... regardless of it being illegal or legal which ever the case maybe.. fact is freeshards will always be around AND in future the chances are they will have more active players than live DAOC servers... how long in future i don't know but it will happen eventually... people who have tried shards know fine well have fast and addictive they are and yea i remember the thing with the legend of mir server files that got leaked infact i've got them on cd somewhere... ^^

 

[censi]

at the end of the day you can bullshit till the cows come home.

mythic developed this game, you always get little leeches who rip off the SW and give it away for free.

you are undermining peoples hard work.

Bit like dodgey japanese watch makers that copy all the expensive watches and sell them for 10$.

The funny thing is the hands fall off after a day though.

I have played on a free shard very breifly (a popular one with like 500 people on it). It was sooo laggy it was kind of comical. Everyone was openly running around using radar and speed hack.

basically it suxed and would just put people off playing daoc.

I wouldnt recomend it, it will spoil your impression of daoc.

 

[Etaew]

This, is another example, of a freeshard breaking the unwritten rules, when someone who wasn't thinking decided to post on VN Boards.

Firstly they couldn't cope with the amount of connections, Dawn of Light falls over past about 250 players with it's current design.

Secondly, the server that did was neither a well established nor well designed server, and therefore did damage the playing experience.

This was delt with swiftly by Dawn of Light using threats of removal from the launcher, and the admins relayed their messages to their users.

I guess you did not read about the revenue that is relayed to Mythic from freeshards pointed to in an earlier post of mine that I care not to repeat, and that you have blindly decided to spew your uninformed opinion.

Dawn of Light encourages people to play with subscriptions on live servers, many of the people who play freeshards do just that, many of the developers of Dawn of Light do also.

It certainly isn't like making a cheaper version of a product and reselling it for this monetary fact, Dawn of Light does not get money from DAOC, yet DAOC get's money from freeshards.

If you have an open mind, or are investigating DAOC for the first time it can be an interesting experience, and many of those who do go onto a much richer and fuller experience with a paying subscription on live.

freeshard 1 - 2 fh


close thread?

Stop with the childish comments, I do not represent freeshards, neither do the majority of the posters here represent freddyshouse. I just offer my opinion. Valid or as invalid as some might think. This is not a fight where you have to keep score, just a discussion.

 

[Himse]

In the context of my answer IP stands for Intellectual Property not Internet Protocol.

Regardless of the licence that the freeshard software is distributed under, it is using Mythic's game design, art and proprietary concepts that are protected under copyright law. The DMCA may only be enforcable in the US but almost every country in the world is signed up to the Berne Convention which sets a minimum standard for international copyright law.

But wait, its copyright.. but they have payed the money to buy the game and use all the art etc within your servers, surely they are just applying this to their own server? its not like they are just freely downloading the game w/o paying for it?

Just curious.. and that probably doesn't make sense !

 

[Etaew]

But wait, its copyright.. but they have payed the money to buy the game and use all the art etc within your servers, surely they are just applying this to their own server?

We pay for the use of it, we don't own the DAOC client, if we wish to break the EULA in any way we can expect something bad to happen our live accounts.

its not like they are just freely downloading the game w/o paying for it?

As I've mentioned earlier, but people seem to skip over my posts, Mythic and GOA have both made this possible, where you can download full clients without buying the game, a number of people who play freeshards still do pay for clients and subscriptions, but the number of those who don't I'm sure has raised since downloads have become availiable.

 

[Himse]

We pay for the use of it, we don't own the DAOC client, if we wish to break the EULA in any way we can expect something bad to happen our live accounts.



As I've mentioned earlier, but people seem to skip over my posts, Mythic and GOA have both made this possible, where you can download full clients without buying the game, a number of people who play freeshards still do pay for clients and subscriptions, but the number of those who don't I'm sure has raised since downloads have become availiable.

thanks you for explaining that, and fast reply too

 

[rynnor]

Correct me if i am wrong , but if i download/install for instance ToA client .. u dont accept any Eula or Coc untill u actually login with your account (wich i dont) .

Then i install a program wich will launch your ToA client and connect to randomx freeshard.

there is no client modding going on, just install daoc + the launcher
and afaik the launcher isn't 3th party program since it doesn't affect the game in any way during play and is turned off immediatly after launch etc .

and i diden't even accept any CoC or Eula.

In that case I believe it would not leave you open to any action from Mythic - I wont say legal because none of this is criminally illegal - at most you could be in breach of contract but if you dont accept the Eula and you dont modify the software then theres nothing they can do.

The emulators of a DAOC server are in a more tricky position - they could be in breach of copyright although thats always a grey area with software - as to DAOC holding intellectual property it must be said that daoc is pretty derivative stuff.

Many of the concepts have been around in mmo's and muds for a number of years - probably the only original thing Mythic own would be the artwork/skins.

I still would'nt advise people to play the freeshards as its unclear what the legal situation truely is however I still think it unlikely that Mythic would ever sue those who connect to freeshards...

 

[rynnor]

We pay for the use of it, we don't own the DAOC client, if we wish to break the EULA in any way we can expect something bad to happen our live accounts.

If only the law was that simple - to be honest until you try it in a case your unlikely to know what the true position is.

Just because the Eula says something it does not make it legally enforceable - in the UK we have the Unfair Contract Terms act which limits a lot of things that US companies always like to put into their contracts - its the reason the disclaimers on US products arent valid in the UK.

It would be a fairly strong case to maintain that using a piece of software you have purchased is legal even if you dont use it to connect to its intended partner. As long as no money changes hands and you dont start selling the client you are probably safe.

GOA will of course maintain otherwise but as I said earlier it isnt clearcut.

 

[Etaew]

And furthermore, it is not GOA's place to make pursue any legal aspects of DAOC, since they hold the licence to run it for European servers, it is still Mythics responsibility to deal with anything. Yet them, much as GOA have kicked this issue under the carpet and refused to deal with it directly, in any form, even with dialog.

 

[Mey]

At the end of the day if Mythic/GOA wanted to sue, they could infact sue for Loss of Earnings (in theory.. though some law boffin will proberly correct me now ). With declining server numbers/population and increasing levels of freeshard use i think they'd have a pretty damn strong case.

 

[Etaew]

At the end of the day if Mythic/GOA wanted to sue, they could infact sue for Loss of Earnings (in theory.. though some law boffin will proberly correct me now ). With declining server numbers/population and increasing levels of freeshard use i think they'd have a pretty damn strong case.

Someone else who hasn't read the content of above posts, it's possible but very unlikely.

 

[Mey]

I have read your comments but i fail to see how something that is free and *just* as good as the live thing could make people want to play on Live Servers and pay to do so. That's bullshit.

Dark age of camelot (the game) is *not* Open source, what gives you the right to use it as such?

 

[rynnor]

Yet them, much as GOA have kicked this issue under the carpet and refused to deal with it directly, in any form, even with dialog.

The best thing for them is if people dont hear of freeshards in the first place.

I still wouldnt play one for the following reasons.

1. Servers run by x - x may be power crazed, x may lose interest and delete the game and all your chars, x may interfere in the game so that his realm/group/chars are dominant. X's server may be rarely available, X's friends may rule the server and wield the power of gods.

Anyone who has played certain Muds will be familiar with this scenario.

2. Lack of players - fun as it may sound to have your own server theres little enjoyment to be had in an empty game.

3. Daoc requires a lot of work to get to 50 on a new server (unless they are giving you 50 levels ;P) - Mythic/GOA have an interest in maintaining servers continuity - mr X doesnt.

4. Lack of neutrality in pvp - without a neutral party - such as GOA - to run the server then there will always be bias in freeshard pvp which kinda destroys it.

 

[rynnor]

Loss of Earnings

Hah - good luck - thats about the hardest thing its possible to sue for - practically no chance.

 

[Thadius]

At the end of the day if Mythic/GOA wanted to sue, they could infact sue for Loss of Earnings (in theory.. though some law boffin will proberly correct me now ). With declining server numbers/population and increasing levels of freeshard use i think they'd have a pretty damn strong case.

I go stand up for freeshards in that one.

How can you expect people to be happy with the state of the game as it is?
(I paid to play Glastonbury, that got fuked ovver by 5 fg on stick )

Added with the fact the problems in the past(ie Opentransit, Prydwen Rollback etc)

Another is the 3rd realm issue on Cluster. With no 3rd english speaking server, a lot leave to try elsewhere, wether it be in the US or on the shards

 

[Etaew]

I have read your comments but i fail to see how something that is free and *just* as good as the live thing could make people want to play on Live Servers and pay to do so. That's bullshit.

Dark age of camelot (the game) is *not* Open source, what gives you the right to use it as such?

You have not read my comments, or you would know that I mention that it is NOT just as good, and that those playing find it bland in comparison with the content of live servers.

Freeshards do not consider DAOC (the game) as open source, the client is never modifier. DAOC (the server) is created as open source, which only sends packets.

The best thing for them is if people dont hear of freeshards in the first place.

Dawn of Light never wishes for such publicity that people try to grab by posting on forums such as these.

In regards to choices of playing, it is up the the individuals.

It seems you guys don't see the 3 entities here, the players who play on freeshards, the owners of these freeshards, and the developers of the freeshard software.

 

[Mey]

But still: Dark age of camelot (the game) is *not* Open source, what gives you the right to use it as such?