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[Bodhi]

Disagree @DaGaffer. Interesting bit about Voluntary Taxation

People pay their taxes under threat of sanction. In Greece there was no actual threat of sanction. Expecting the greeks to voluntarily pay money to their government without threat of sanction is the action of a fantasist.

The system was broken - not some "moral compass" of the people. If we had the same system that the Greeks had in the United Kingtom then we would be exactly the same.

Blaming "the greeks" is utterly incorrect. The system was at fault.

Try reading your own links, under "Criticisms" Number 1 - The government doesn't receive enough money.

Pretty much what happened here tbh m8. You would have to either be a dribbling idiot or fairly myopic in your hatred of the rich not to see that.

And I don't think to you are an idiot.

 

[BloodOmen]

 

[Scouse]

Try reading your own links, under "Criticisms" Number 1 - The government doesn't receive enough money

Yeah - that's kinda proving my point. Taxation, in reality, is never voluntary. There needs to be a real threat of sanction for people to pay tax - or we simply won't do it.

There was no threat of sanction in Greece. That's governmental failure...

 

[Gwadien]

And I don't think to you are an idiot.

Nope, we know he's an idiot :3

 

[Scouse]

Nope, we know he's an idiot :3

Gwad needs the wub. Keeps getting killed by the pigs in Payday

 

[Gwadien]

Gwad needs the wub. Keeps getting killed by the pigs in Payday

Says possibly the worst CS player I've ever seen in my life.

Dickhead.

Go pay taxes.

Communist Cock Sucker

Marxist Muncher

 

[Scouse]

Moriath's managed to turn you into Bodhi!





Bring back the old smilies ffs

 

[Job]

Greece will do fine, there's a limit to how fucked you can be until being fucked becomes an advantage, the EU project has tried to stop this process and in doing so has sent itself on a long road to disaster in a desperate attempt to be seen as a world power, the politics just aren't going to happen, we all hate each other.

 

[Raven]

Erm, no we don't.

The problem with Europe is the leadership in Europe. Not the people. If they were in any way accountable or democratically voted in then it would survive. As it is, its bullshit will kill it, within 20 years it will have been disbanded. Which imo will be a tragic shame.

I would rather it just died than carry on the way its going though.

I hope the right wing loons do actually do well at the elections both here and in mainland Europe, maybe it will be the jolt that makes Europe change.

 

[Scouse]

The problem with Europe is the leadership in Europe. Not the people.

OK. Does this just not apply to the Greeks then?

Are you Greekist?

 

[Raven]

Er. No.

The problems in Greece are partly the Greek leadership over decades and the people, over decades. Europe lent them money that they pissed up the wall and now they cant or wont pay it back. You don't just keep throwing money at someone or something that doesn't ever pay it back.

You try to manage the problem, firstly by cutting public spending and encouraging private investment, something that is slowly but surely working here.

The public services do not make money, all they do is spend it. If you aren't bringing in any taxes, how on earth are you going to fund public services?

 

[Scouse]

The problems in Greece are partly the Greek leadership over decades and the people, over decades.

Europe didn't lend the greek "people" any money in the same way that the Bank of England hasn't given us any quantitative easing money. The corrupt greek government was given the money.

The greek people are exactly the same as us, and we'd act exactly the same if our circumstances were the same.

To suggest that there's something different about the greek people specifically is tantamount to some kind of weird racism - they're genetically the same as us. Why do you think we'd act any differently?

And if you don't - then surely you can see it's a failure of government, and not the people?

 

[Raven]

But they aren't the same, which is why the one size fits all Euro Bureaucracy just doesn't work and having a single currency across completely different economies certainly don't work.

The money lent by Europe shored up the banks and meant the Greek government could pay for part of their insanely vast public sector.

 

[Scouse]

But they aren't the same

OK - just to be clear (because I think you're being vague there).

Greece as an economy is different (completely) - but the human beings who inhabit it are exactly the same as us, right?

 

[Raven]

Physiologically yes, psychologically, economically and socially, no.

 

[Scouse]

Physiologically yes, psychologically and socially, no.

OK then.

Cultural, psychological and social norms are defined by a number of things - but as we've specified humans being equal then the reasons are ultimately environmental.

In terms of whether greeks pay their taxes (or even care about paying their taxes) is down to what happens when they don't.

In this country you're likely to go to jail. In Greece, not. The difference being that in blighty the government enforces strongly - in Greece, not.

Q.E.D: Government failure. Not people failure.

Therefore: Stop blaming the Greek people - and blame the corrupt governments in Greece's past.

 

[Raven]

So you are not a fan of personal responsibility then? Always someone else's fault.

Ok, got it.

 

[Gwadien]

I blame the Greek Government; it's not the Greek's fault the Greeks have a lazy work ethic, and they're not all about MONEY MONEY MONEY.

Merkel-land gave them too much of a good offer that they couldn't refuse, and Europe shouldn't be surprised if they get to get fucked when it means the Greeks have to change their attitudes.

 

[Raven]

Its not a new thing though, it happened for decades, it is/was a social problem and you can't just blah blah, it was the governments fault.

The only reason it became such a problem now was that the wheels fell of the train, in the same way they did in Spain, Portugal and Ireland.

Too much construction to keep too many people (All on the take) in work, when it became clear that there was nobody willing or able to buy it the whole mess collapsed. The difference is the people in Spain, Portugal and Ireland were more willing to change and yes, led by good government, but it was still people changing that was the core.

 

[Scouse]

So you are not a fan of personal responsibility then? Always someone else's fault.

So you don't think the Brits would do exactly the same in their circumstances, despite us being genetically identical.

I always thought the greek-hatred thing had more than a whif of xenophobia about it.

 

[Raven]

What are you talking about now?

Are you actually trying to make this about race and or xenophobia? Seriously?

Wow, well that me out then.

Carry on

 

[Gwadien]

So Germany said to Spain and Ireland, and they responded with 'how high?'

I think the Greeks are lazier in nature, so they'll be a bit harder to motivate, good on them tbh.

 

[Raven]

I think Germany (and the rest of Europe) said sort your shit out, rapid like. Some did, some didn't.

Guess what sort of situation the people who didn't are in?

It has nothing to do with how lazy people are, its not like they don't want to work, they just don't want to pay tax.

 

[Scouse]

Are you actually trying to make this about race and or xenophobia? Seriously?

I don't wish to use that label at all Raven.

You admit they're genetically our equal so the only other thing that modifies human behaviour is their environment. The greeks live and grew up in an environment where paying tax was not normal - unlike in the UK.

The *only* logical conclusion therefore is that the underlying reason is a failure of successive governments to enforce tax laws.

But you can't bear to bring yourself to that conclusion - instead preferring to see the greeks as some sort of special case, when they're human, just like the rest of us.

It boggles the mind tbh.

 

[Gwadien]

Yeah, but as I say, that's their choice as a nation, what right do others tell them how to look after their selves?

They didn't have the right to until the Euro.

Infact, I wonder what would have happened if they declined the bail outs - trade embargoes?

 

[Scouse]

I think Germany (and the rest of Europe) said sort your shit out, rapid like. Some did, some didn't.

Guess what sort of situation the people who didn't are in?

It has nothing to do with how lazy people are, its not like they don't want to work, they just don't want to pay tax.

NOBODY wants to pay tax. You pay tax because you're FORCED to do so. By GOVERNMENT.

Also - Germany and the rest of Europe said to the greek GOVERNMENT "sort your shit out". At no point did they talk to the greek people...


Edit: I'm out too. This is retarded.

 

[Raven]

Look, you are trying to enforce some sort of weird angle onto it which isn't there, and you know its not there. Once again you are attempting to get your rocks off by imposing some bollocks onto someone else.

I think we will just leave it there.

 

[Scouse]

Look, you are trying to enforce some sort of weird angle onto it which isn't there

You mean the governments-job-to-collect-taxes-from-the-people angle?

 

[Access Denied]

@Raven I've got to agree with @Scouse here.

The Greek people have, for decades, operated under the assumption that not paying taxes is a given right. That fact has only been exacerbated by the complete failure of successive Greek Governments to enforce tax laws properly. No one wants to pay taxes and if your Government isn't going to punish you for not doing so, there is no onus to pay them.

You can blame the Greek people for not taking personal responsibility but if you had the chance to get away with not giving 20% of your wages to the fuckers in Parliment, would you still do so?

 

[Billargh]

^ Took the words right out my mouth.