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[DaGaffer]

Equally - the people of greece were fleeced by corrupt rich people - and EU politicians had full knowledge of this. Why should joe citizen of any country be held responsible for the actions of a priviledged elite that they have no control over?

Yep, there's gonna be knock-on's for the eurozone - but why not direct anger at our own politicians rather than the greek people? Their youth unemployment rate is greater than 50% - they're suffering anyway so why kick a man when he's down for crimes that were nothing to do with him?

I know what you're saying, but there is a particular problem with Greece in comparison to most of the other EU basket cases; everyone, and I do mean, pretty much everyone, has systematically fleeced their own government for decades. The tax evasion problem isn't just a side-effect, it made the borrowing problem exponentially worse, and the worry about Syriza is that pretty much their first promise is to massively increase public spending that they don't have the tax revenues to pay for, but worse, an unwillingness to pay those tax revenues in the first place. Where's the money going to come from? Even if the left the Euro and told their creditors to fuck off, and they decided to somehow avoid international capital (like Argentina is doing really well at...) and rely in internal revenues, where will the money come from if no-one wants to pay for anything?

 

[DaGaffer]

As far as they're concerned they've got no hope and it's about as bad as it can get. Someone you believe to be vastly more knowledgeable than you says "it doesn't have to be like this".

Who are you going to vote for?


What concerns me most in all this is the staggering blame-the-victim attitude of so many humans. It's like saying women deserve rape because they dressed a certain way - an attitude that was openly held not that long ago.

Except in Greece (and Cyprus') case, the people have to take a measure of responsibility for their actions. You can make different arguments for Spain, or Italy or even the UK and Ireland, but Greece is at least 50% self-inflicted wounds.

 

[Scouse]

Except in Greece (and Cyprus') case, the people have to take a measure of responsibility for their actions. You can make different arguments for Spain, or Italy or even the UK and Ireland, but Greece is at least 50% self-inflicted wounds.

If you're brought up like a caged canary then you accept your cage and act accordingly IMO.

 

[Raven]

Its like suddenly deciding you aren't going to work any more and instead spend all day buying shiny things online. It ain't going to happen. There is no money in the pot. The people of Greece have been conned.

 

[Scouse]

There is no money in the pot.

No. It's all in the 0.1%'s pockets - especially so with the new trillion euro quantitative easing program of the ECB.

95% of our bailout money went into the hands of the 0.1%. Forgive the greeks people for understanding that and rejecting austerity. What have they got to lose? Nothing...


Edit: It's not like the greek people were ever "rich"...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Just had a camel ciggie since who knows when. Instant flashback to 2003ish. Funny how the brain works

 

[Bodhi]

Someone on another forum I frequent worked out what is needed in assets to be part of this mystical 1% that everyone keeps drivelling on about. If we are taking it in global terms, the number was around £240k in assets. So most homeowners and everyone with a public sector pension (or a half decent private pension if such a thing exists after Gordon's raid in the late noughties).

Food for thought imo.

 

[Scouse]

Food for thought imo.

Not really.

The 1% is just a soundbite that doesn't accurately mathematically represent what is being talked about - but because we need to represent something we've applied a label to it.

For example - the 80 people who own more than the poorest 3.5 billion in the world are the one-hundred-thousands-of-one-percent or the .000001%.

Do you really expect people to talk in those terms? Of course not. You couldn't hold an adult conversation about inequality with that level of pedantry.

 

[Raven]

...or facts!

Its a matter of perspective anyway, you can sit and moan about the super rich in your nice comfortable house but if the poor (and by poor, I mean poor, not just those people who say they are poor because they can have a take away every other day) they would just call you a bellend.

 

[Bodhi]

Do I expect people getting up in arms about something to be accurate about what they are getting up in arms about?

Well yes. Yes I do. Especially when the inaccuracy will place a good proportion of the US and UK in the group being moaned about.

As you may be able to tell, I am yet to be convinced this inequality is half the problem it's being cracked up to be. If Carlos Slim has added another few billion to his empire, I don't really see how this is affects me if my wealth is also going up - for eg, things were very equal in Communist China, not so much now. Which China would you rather live in? I'd say absolute poverty was more of an issue than relative - and we are definitely making strides in this area. Still more we can do, but in a lot of ways with the world is now, we haven't actually had it this good.

Not that you can tell from the media these days......

 

[Scouse]

Its a matter of perspective anyway, you can sit and moan about the super rich in your nice comfortable house but if the poor (and by poor, I mean poor, not just those people who say they are poor because they can have a take away every other day) they would just call you a bellend.

You mean poor like more than 50% unemployed youth in greece, who definitely weren't to blame for any corruption or overspend on the part of the greek government because they were still sucking their mother's tits at the time type poor?

What needs to happen before you have any empathy for people who aren't billionaires?

 

[Scouse]

Do I expect people getting up in arms about something to be accurate about what they are getting up in arms about?

You come up with the label then Bodhi. If you struggle to understand what people are talking about why not tell us what we should be calling it? It'll save a lot of time and effort.

we haven't actually had it this good

Tell that to the unemployed greek kids who've been born into a hopeless situation of none of their making.

Or are we only allowed to care about ourselves nowadays?

 

[Raven]

Bad example. The Greek people were half the problem. Back handers, allergic to paying tax etc was endemic. We would be like that if we followed your lead and avoided tax. Regardless of how you look at it if nobody pays tax then society has no money.

 

[Scouse]

Bad example. The Greek people were half the problem. Back handers, allergic to paying tax etc was endemic. We would be lime that if we followed your lead and avoided tax. Regardless of how you look at it if nobody pays tax then society has no money.

Why is pointing out Greek kids can't get jobs a "bad example"? They can't get jobs, it wasn't their fault - at all - and they're fucked. That's a fact - not opinion.


As for avoiding paying tax - again why do you sympathise with billionaires? I pay all the tax I'm legally due - much more as a percentage of my earnings than google, Warren Buffet, Starbucks, Amazon and their shareholders. Yet I say "change the tax laws to make everyone, including business, pay their fair share".

But you'd rather attack the people with the least than the people with the most. I think that's an act of intellectual cowardice

 

[Raven]

Amazon and co also pay the legal amount of tax as per the law. I don't think you are really right to complain about their tax affairs when you also avoid tax.

Avoid, not evade.

you can bang on about systematic change all you like, it doesn't mean you aren't part of the problem you are complaining about.


Also, how is pointing out how Greece got themselves into this mess in anyway sympathising with billionaires?

 

[Raven]

Ah the old facepalm evasion.

 

[Bodhi]

Why is pointing out Greek kids can't get jobs a "bad example"? They can't get jobs, it wasn't their fault - at all - and they're fucked. That's a fact - not opinion.


As for avoiding paying tax - again why do you sympathise with billionaires? I pay all the tax I'm legally due - much more as a percentage of my earnings than google, Warren Buffet, Starbucks, Amazon and their shareholders. Yet I say "change the tax laws to make everyone, including business, pay their fair share".

But you'd rather attack the people with the least than the people with the most. I think that's an act of intellectual cowardice

This is the Greek problem though, they AREN't paying what they are due, and haven't for years. Last time I checked they had a black hole in the budget of €50 billion in evaded taxes. That's not avoided through transfer pricing and loopholes, just plain evaded. Sadly the unemployed youth are paying the price for this now as you rightly say. However to blame this all on the Germans (the 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% you are referring to), really is missing half of the issue.

 

[Fweddy]

According to the BBC you need a wealth of £530,000 to be in the 1%.

 

[Scouse]

Amazon and co also pay the legal amount of tax as per the law. I don't think you are really right to complain about their tax affairs when you also avoid tax.

Of course I can complain about the level of taxation paid by the rich - billionaire Warren Buffet publicly came out and said that it is disgraceful that his secretary pays a higher percentage of her income than he does.

Question: Do you think Warren Buffet should voluntarily make himself a pauper before he can point out something that is obviously wrong?

Also, how is pointing out how Greece got themselves into this mess in anyway sympathising with billionaires?

Not just the greeks (and their kids). It's every time we talk about this subject. Your support is implicit because you never make the argument against them or concede a point there.

How do you feel about the rich paying much much less tax as a proportion of their income as you Raven? Is Warren Buffet wrong?

 

[Scouse]

missing half of the issue.

At least I'm on-target with the other half of the issue then.

But to address what you're complaining about - tax evasion - by the poor AND the rich - requires structural reform. Systemic change*.


But you and raven both seem to want some sort of systemic change that makes the poor pay their fair share - but sees the rich get away with not paying their fair share. And I just don't get it. It's like a mental block that says "never touch the rich".



Edit: * It's up to the government to collect taxes - not up to the people to voluntarily give their money away whilst others don't. Which brings us nicely to it not being the greek people's fault - it was the fault of corrupt government which didn't want to bring in legislation that would have meant that the rich - the real benefitters of that system - would have had to pay too...

 

[Scouse]

Ah the old facepalm evasion.

Gimme a fucking minute to respond FFS Raven. As you can see above - at least I bother to address your and bodhi's concerns - but you don't seem to care to bother addressing the points I raise...

 

[DaGaffer]

Why is pointing out Greek kids can't get jobs a "bad example"? They can't get jobs, it wasn't their fault - at all - and they're fucked. That's a fact - not opinion.

So they get work elsewhere in the EU. That's the point of being in a single labour market. When I was 16 I moved away from home to get work, now you might have to move further but the need is the same and the means a lot easier.

As for avoiding paying tax - again why do you sympathise with billionaires? I pay all the tax I'm legally due - much more as a percentage of my earnings than google, Warren Buffet, Starbucks, Amazon and their shareholders. Yet I say "change the tax laws to make everyone, including business, pay their fair share".

But you'd rather attack the people with the least than the people with the most. I think that's an act of intellectual cowardice

49% of Greeks didn't pay the tax they were legally due. That's the point. I have no problem criticising the super-rich but in the case of Greece, they are not the whole problem, not at all.

 

[old.Tohtori]

 

[Bodhi]

No, I'd just rather we made the poor richer than the rich poorer, as that is going down the road of the politics of envy, which may work for Labour, sadly it's not something I would subscribe to. I don't entirely see how you can multiply wealth by dividing it up.

 

[Raven]

At least I'm on-target with the other half of the issue then.

But to address what you're complaining about - tax evasion - by the poor AND the rich - requires structural reform. Systemic change*.


But you and raven both seem to want some sort of systemic change that makes the poor pay their fair share - but sees the rich get away with not paying their fair share. And I just don't get it. It's like a mental block that says "never touch the rich".



Edit: * It's up to the government to collect taxes - not up to the people to voluntarily give their money away whilst others don't. Which brings us nicely to it not being the greek people's fault - it was the fault of corrupt government which didn't want to bring in legislation that would have meant that the rich - the real benefitters of that system - would have had to pay too...

I would prefer everyone paid a flat rate of tax on income, that is the fairest way. The rich should not pay any more or less than the poor.

But then I also believe people should live how they expect others to. When you avoid as much tax as you legally can, I find it extremely difficult to take anything you say seriously. I certainly can't be arsed to have a debate with you about it.

It would be like someone who lives in a nice centrally heated home with a larger than they need car sat on the drive for their long commute to work, complaining about "climate change" it would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?!

In other words, stop being such a massive hypocrite, then we will talk.

 

[Scouse]

So they get work elsewhere in the EU. That's the point of being in a single labour market. When I was 16 I moved away from home to get work, now you might have to move further but the need is the same and the means a lot easier.

To this I'd say - the single labour market was designed so you had the option to move abroad (and away from your family and friends) to find work. It would be brutal to require people to do so. You must move away from your family and friends?

Splitting families is not what the single labour market was supposed to achieve. Moving abroad to find work was supposed to be aspirational - not mandatory.

But even if that is now the case - what would they be facing if they came to, say, Blighty looking for work?

A foreigner-hating press, a Sun-reading public detesting a bunch of "tax-dodging Greek immigrants coming over here, putting a strain on the NHS, taking errr jerbs"?

UKIP?

What a choice! With no guarantee of work at the end of it anyway (if you could afford to come in the first place).

49% of Greeks didn't pay the tax they were legally due. That's the point. I have no problem criticising the super-rich but in the case of Greece, they are not the whole problem, not at all.

As I've already said - that was a failure of a corrupt government - not a failure of the greek people. Tax is collected - not voluntarily handed over. Morally, that lies squarely with the government - and in Greece that was a government of rich people who quite happily didn't want to enforce their lax tax laws because they'd fall for them themselves.

These problems were created by the mismanagement of a corrupt elite - not the self-interest of the much less well off. The rich knew what was going on but they didn't act. Joe Citizen does not spend his life going "I wonder if I should be paying more - what'll happen to Greece in 20 years time" - and he shouldn't have to either.

That is what fiscally-responsible Government is for. The rich didn't do their jobs.

 

[DaGaffer]

Morally, that lies squarely with the government

And that's where you're utterly wrong. Its a contract. You want services, you pay your dues.

 

[Bodhi]

And that's where you're utterly wrong. Its a contract. You want services, you pay your dues.

Sadly there are none so blind as those who will not see........

 

[Scouse]

Disagree @DaGaffer. Interesting bit about Voluntary Taxation

People pay their taxes under threat of sanction. In Greece there was no actual threat of sanction. Expecting the greeks to voluntarily pay money to their government without threat of sanction is the action of a fantasist.

The system was broken - not some "moral compass" of the people. If we had the same system that the Greeks had in the United Kingtom then we would be exactly the same.

Blaming "the greeks" is utterly incorrect. The system was at fault.

 

[Bodhi]

Underlining shit doesn't make your point any more valid, especially when you seem to be arguing against pretty much everyone in the developed world.