The so called fix of 'melee lag'.

[cmr]

it was nicely done really, if had old banelord then yes it would be really overpowered

if you die to a tank then tough shit, so long now casters have had it easy enough..... cant belive your complaining really

 

[Kagato]

it was nicely done really, if had old banelord then yes it would be really overpowered

if you die to a tank then tough shit, so long now casters have had it easy enough..... cant belive your complaining really

Apparently 900 + damage every second at 1800 + range (not counting high ground bonus) is not enough for some people, just occasionally, once in a while, a tank actually manages to hit them. After they have gotten through the self BT, brittle guard and pbt, oh and assuming of cause they are not guarded, bodyguarded or strafing. nerf the tanks.

 

[noaim]

Apparently 900 + damage every second at 1800 + range (not counting high ground bonus) is not enough for some people, just occasionally, once in a while, a tank actually manages to hit them. After they have gotten through the self BT, brittle guard and pbt, oh and assuming of cause they are not guarded, bodyguarded or strafing. nerf the tanks.

The expert has spoken. Good fix imo, as a caster.

 

[kirennia]

Apparently 900 + damage every second at 1800 + range (not counting high ground bonus) is not enough for some people, just occasionally, once in a while, a tank actually manages to hit them. After they have gotten through the self BT, brittle guard and pbt, oh and assuming of cause they are not guarded, bodyguarded or strafing. nerf the tanks.

Sorry but for someone to be hitting you especially as an armsman for 900 damage regularly every second, you would have to have literally 0% resists. And 1500range+10%range bonus is still only 1650range, not 1800(therg pet) range. With the amount of interupts an average tank has, this should only work whilst you're running at a target until about 700range. And with charge, stoisicm, det,general resisst, purge, DI etc, they shouldn't be able to get off many nukes regularly.

I don't know what type of rvr you're comparing tanks to casters with and you know this isn't a personal insult but at the same time, this isn't even close to an accurate representation of rvr. Other then 1.68, I don't think I've ever known a more balanced caster vs tank time.

Every time has it's casters being better as well as its tanks being better at their roles. In a FG, I would never expect a tank to out damage a caster but at the same time, a caster will not generally out interupt a tank unless they're completely built for it. In which case they're not going to be delivering a compparable amount of damage.

 

[Arkian]

Sorry but for someone to be hitting you especially as an armsman for 900 damage regularly every second, you would have to have literally 0% resists. And 1500range+10%range bonus is still only 1650range, not 1800(therg pet) range. With the amount of interupts an average tank has, this should only work whilst you're running at a target until about 700range. And with charge, stoisicm, det,general resisst, purge, DI etc, they shouldn't be able to get off many nukes regularly.

I don't know what type of rvr you're comparing tanks to casters with and you know this isn't a personal insult but at the same time, this isn't even close to an accurate representation of rvr. Other then 1.68, I don't think I've ever known a more balanced caster vs tank time.

Every time has it's casters being better as well as its tanks being better at their roles. In a FG, I would never expect a tank to out damage a caster but at the same time, a caster will not generally out interupt a tank unless they're completely built for it. In which case they're not going to be delivering a compparable amount of damage.

26% item + 16% casted body resist, hit by a cabby for 918 yesterday. Resists don't count for a great deal when it's so easy to debuff them into nothing, the problem being compounded by power relic bonus. Even then, have been hit by a theurg for 768 against 26% item+5% racial+16% casted spirit resist, with no debuff (tripple checked the chat box as I couldn't believe being hit so hard with no debuff, still have no clue how it hit that hard).

Totally agree with Shike, for far too long it's been easy for casters to not be too concerned about tanks being near them, as they could 'out of view'/'out of range' thier way to safety if the tank had no stun. Hopefully casters will have to start to be a lot more carefull how they position.

I agree that a caster should outdamage a tank, it's up for debate by how much, but one thing is for sure, caster's should only be able to avoid taking a spanking from tanks by either outpositioning the tank before they are reached/CC on the tanks/bodyguard/grapple. A flaw in the game mechanics (that now seems to be somewhat corrected) shouldn't be a crutch

 

[Kagato]

Sorry but for someone to be hitting you especially as an armsman for 900 damage regularly every second, you would have to have literally 0% resists. And 1500range+10%range bonus is still only 1650range, not 1800(therg pet) range. With the amount of interupts an average tank has, this should only work whilst you're running at a target until about 700range. And with charge, stoisicm, det,general resisst, purge, DI etc, they shouldn't be able to get off many nukes regularly.

I don't know what type of rvr you're comparing tanks to casters with and you know this isn't a personal insult but at the same time, this isn't even close to an accurate representation of rvr. Other then 1.68, I don't think I've ever known a more balanced caster vs tank time.

Every time has it's casters being better as well as its tanks being better at their roles. In a FG, I would never expect a tank to out damage a caster but at the same time, a caster will not generally out interupt a tank unless they're completely built for it. In which case they're not going to be delivering a compparable amount of damage.

Its a more accurate representation of real current RvR then what you are suggesting now.

Keeping in mind that the majority of damage spells are now debuff based or self debuff, I quite often still get hit for a over 900 damage with 26% capped resists, 10% CL resists AND 15% heavy tank resists.

As for interrupts, the one and only interrupt availible to myself is snapshot I have to spec for and is still only 1 minute duration every 10 minutes.

Now compare that to a hero or warrior who have non, and its already balanced more towards casters.

And this is not even going into the issue of crowd control, adding even more nuking time to the duration a tank is under fire for, and then you still have to deal with kiting and strafing which is still as big a issue now as it has always been.

And if all else fails, just desease shear and run, no immunity power, nothing you can do about it.

Sorry but this is still a Castalot game as much as ever. Sure theres ways a smart player can try and get round these things, but for every countermeasure theres another counter-countermeasure and casters still have way more tricks to pull then a mundane tank has.

 

[GrIrcSpammer]

the fix was necessary and they didnt overdo it at all. its not a fix of the lag but just an extension of the range. try playing a svg or a reaver and u ll realise how much longer it is now . But this is what made tanks playable . all u have to do is kite a bit sooner whereas tanks couldnt hit at all by just using stick sprint and styles . and no i dont like to look like a monkey every time i want to hit some1 guessing where he ll go . God bless new range

 

[Vodkafairy]

strong exaggerating there kagato, have you really become so bitter these years?

 

[Kaun_IA]

it was a fair fix

 

[Jess]

Keeping in mind that the majority of damage spells are now debuff based or self debuff, I quite often still get hit for a over 900 damage with 26% capped resists, 10% CL resists AND 15% heavy tank resists.

Ive been hit for 1.000+ from you (shields _were_ up as well as resists) so ....

We tend to remember the flukes and forget the everyday "normal" situations.

 

[MaditioN]

someone died in an rvr zone!

 

[kirennia]

26% item + 16% casted body resist, hit by a cabby for 918 yesterday. Resists don't count for a great deal when it's so easy to debuff them into nothing, the problem being compounded by power relic bonus. Even then, have been hit by a theurg for 768 against 26% item+5% racial+16% casted spirit resist, with no debuff (tripple checked the chat box as I couldn't believe being hit so hard with no debuff, still have no clue how it hit that hard).

It's not a regular thing though, that is with a near cap crit and a hell of a lot of damage passives most probably. And my comment was for a heavy tank to be hit for that much as they get additional 15% I think resists.

Its a more accurate representation of real current RvR then what you are suggesting now.

Keeping in mind that the majority of damage spells are now debuff based or self debuff, I quite often still get hit for a over 900 damage with 26% capped resists, 10% CL resists AND 15% heavy tank resists.

We have 2 classes which should be in nearly every group which have access to baod which will lower their dmaage considerably and a tics rr5 will also destroy a casters magic damage on tanks. AoM is of course nice to take the edge off of nukes also and croc tears ring if you're a class which can wear it (caster only really though )

I've got 25%heat resists and only aom2 at the moment but I still very rarely get hit for 900 damage. Most of the time I get suprised when I'm nuked for 700damage and that's without all the timers being used.

As for interrupts, the one and only interrupt availible to myself is snapshot I have to spec for and is still only 1 minute duration every 10 minutes.

Now compare that to a hero or warrior who have non, and its already balanced more towards casters.

And this is not even going into the issue of crowd control, adding even more nuking time to the duration a tank is under fire for, and then you still have to deal with kiting and strafing which is still as big a issue now as it has always been.

Your banelord tanks or group interupters should be doing the interupt role with your snapshot only being an extra really. If they aren't doing it then something is wrong in the group. And crowd control works both ways for casters and tanks

Sorry but this is still a Castalot game as much as ever. Sure theres ways a smart player can try and get round these things, but for every countermeasure theres another counter-countermeasure and casters still have way more tricks to pull then a mundane tank has.

And for most counter-countermeasures there is a counter-counter-countermeasure In agramon for example, there are more tank groups then there are caster groups at the moment and still, every caster group has a couple of tanks. The tank groups seem to be doing as well, if not then better then the caster groups at the moment.

 

[Shike]

Then I guess you never faced me when I did, and btw when someone charges it's impossible to spiral as their speed will allow them to even hit you when they /stick, unless you got an unbreakable speed that equals theirs (SoS etc).
I'd gladly show you haw crap I can spiral when you don't use charge
I think Dopi and that hero (can't remember his name was in GA-Hib also) still remember the fun times we had when they didn't even hit me once in 1-2 min fight

wrong, there is _no_ tank that can hit a proper spiraler, since the target isnt on the ground within reach at all. He's up in the air spinning, thats spiraling when its proper made, and if you abused that then Im sure I would have read about it on these boards. Encountered it quite a few time in US (where they are expert at abusing..) and its the second worst abuse to encounter as a tank, the worst is teleporting which also can be done.

 

[Andrilyn]

Well I've never heard about or seen anyone fly into the air in a circular motion, the spiralling I mean is using your mouse to follow the back very very closely (not run through him but be as close to him as possible before the gfx of your char and his clash) of the enemy tank so he will get "out of view" basically every single time and especially when he uses /stick as the automated distance in /stick makes it much easier to do.
But like I said I can show you if you like.

 

[Muylaetrix]

Asp range of around 350 is kinda harsh though.

Asp has always been great against targets that run away due to it`s superior range.

This seems like an Ok compromise between a fix for something that is hard to fix like lag side effects and a patch that just adresses the symptomes, not the issue.

No solution, but a big improvment.

 

[Shike]

Well I've never heard about or seen anyone fly into the air in a circular motion, the spiralling I mean is using your mouse to follow the back very very closely (not run through him but be as close to him as possible before the gfx of your char and his clash) of the enemy tank so he will get "out of view" basically every single time and especially when he uses /stick as the automated distance in /stick makes it much easier to do.
But like I said I can show you if you like.

I know what it is that you use and its actually also quite simple to counter, especially for a BM with sidestun, two steps back and sidechain and its a high probability for icestorm to land. Why that works is because you as a strafer runs right into the style. Done it quite a few times since 1.84 came and the extended meleerange helps with it. One step back, face, icestorm and you will be stunned in many many cases. <3 the arc on sidestyles ^^ Lots of people do what you do btw.

 

[kirennia]

Asp has always been great against targets that run away due to it`s superior range.

This seems like an Ok compromise between a fix for something that is hard to fix like lag side effects and a patch that just adresses the symptomes, not the issue.

No solution, but a big improvment.

Aye, I think the range on asp has been increased too so it's even better Agree with what you said too.

I also think there's been a fix for positional styles too. I've found myself being able to land levi for example a lot easier. For example, I hit levi/indigo, perosn turns around to face me, levi lands. Or I hit levi with them facing me, they turn around during that window and it lands anyway.

I could be wrong but I don't think it was ever this easy to land styles. I know my damage has been greatly increased with these changes though; I seem to be getting more deathblows then other tanks in the group even though I'm not permanently meleeing like they are.

 

[Gahn]

Aye, I think the range on asp has been increased too so it's even better Agree with what you said too.

I also think there's been a fix for positional styles too. I've found myself being able to land levi for example a lot easier. For example, I hit levi/indigo, perosn turns around to face me, levi lands. Or I hit levi with them facing me, they turn around during that window and it lands anyway.

I could be wrong but I don't think it was ever this easy to land styles. I know my damage has been greatly increased with these changes though; I seem to be getting more deathblows then other tanks in the group even though I'm not permanently meleeing like they are.

That's cause of the 3s window for landing Styles with prerequisites.

 

[Tilda]

Kagato, you could always get some item/gem with DD or dot charges on it to interupt

 

[Elrandhir]

I think that its a nice fix tbh, I absolutely hated how it was, it roxed for casters sure but it was nuts for tanks.

Now its more as it should be, casters _have_ to use the brain and prekite or make good use of BG. You should never, ever, get out of a tanks range while that tank is unsnared and sprinting and even charging, never.

As BM I see lots of funny stuff every day, we met some random albs in HW and I got mezzed, what next happened was that some muppet named Mustrum runs up right infront of me and start nuking ppl behind me.. Im thinking: OK! IM A FUCKIGN FIRB BLADEMASTER FFS.. CANT YOU SEE THAT YOU FUCKING IDIOT!? Secs later ofc mez drops because im a stoicismtank with det4 so.. Mr Mustrum eats dirt ofc. I mean, when ppl that unskilled get away with anything and manage to get high rank, hasnt it gone too far in casters favour? Casters have to start paying attention and respect tanks, or they die, which is how the system now works and imo, its fair. This meleefix in combination with the nerfed BL is excellent, if BL hadnt been nerfed then it would indeed have been silly.

Staj im not saying you are unskilled and dont pay attention yada yada but you shoudnt really whine about this at all. The lenght on the meleerange can in some cases seem abnormal but I think that has more to do with client-server lag than anything else.

Agree with Shike, tanks have been screwed over by this for so long also.

 

[Dr_Evil]

Excellent. As a skald I've never had as much problems landing backstyles as other tanks had when trying to land their positionals, but it's great to hear from my fellow tanks that they love this fix and they don't have to be frustrated about landing styles only 20% of the time anymore.

 

[Kagato]

strong exaggerating there kagato, have you really become so bitter these years?

No exageration is needed, its all facts.

Ive been hit for 1.000+ from you (shields _were_ up as well as resists) so ....

We tend to remember the flukes and forget the everyday "normal" situations.

Differance is I need to hit you once for the debuff to land, then hit you again 3 or 4 seconds later for the debuffed damage hit to land and hope by this time your still in the correct position for my best style and that I havent been grappled, bg'd, cc'd or otherwise disabled within those 8 seconds.

Bit different to anytime ranged casting of 900 damage every second methinks.

 

[Shike]

900 every second... giff that caster pls, i wanna be OPd

 

[Eleasias]

ye m8 heavy tanks get hit for 900 ALL the time, almost every nuke! dont you know it vf ))))

kagato is a dumbass


im with shike on this one btw, and i've been playing mostly casters lately

 

[noaim]

I think its nice balance atm, where hybrid grps seems to work best, since full castergrps just get pushed to death and full tankgrps gets owned by good bg etc.

 

[Shike]

219delve times 3 = 658 base damage on a speccnuke.

say that we put on mom5 and 8% TOA.

sums up to 817 TOPdamage a caster can do with a CLstaff equipped which imho can be assumed.

Ok! so..

817 damage minus 26% resist is 604 damage. On a heavy tank with 15% passive resist this means 514 maximal damage with a speccnuke, say that this tank have bought aom3 for example, then damage decrease even more. Remember that a casted resistbuff isnt calculated into this at all either.. I chose to leave that out since I also leave out passive resistdecrease from mages. If counting in both damage goes down even more unless CLresist is used, then they just cancel each others out more or less.

If casters makes use of debuffs and cooperate and assist, damage goes up but 900+ damage is a very very extreme damage and I dont think I've ever been nuked for that on my BM. i've seen some silly cases with 800 but the frequent damage I take is around 400 to 700 damage, 700 is ofc after debuffs and a crit aswell since I run with AoM4. 400-450 is standardcasterdamage on me unless they are v high rank.

I seriosly dont know where you get your numbers from Kagato, or do you have some very low resists or something?

 

[Tuthmes]

219delve times 3 = 658 base damage on a speccnuke.

say that we put on mom5 and 8% TOA.

sums up to 817 TOPdamage a caster can do with a CLstaff equipped which imho can be assumed.

Ok! so..

817 damage minus 26% resist is 604 damage. On a heavy tank with 15% passive resist this means 514 maximal damage with a speccnuke, say that this tank have bought aom3 for example, then damage decrease even more. Remember that a casted resistbuff isnt calculated into this at all either.. I chose to leave that out since I also leave out passive resistdecrease from mages. If counting in both damage goes down even more unless CLresist is used, then they just cancel each others out more or less.

If casters makes use of debuffs and cooperate and assist, damage goes up but 900+ damage is a very very extreme damage and I dont think I've ever been nuked for that on my BM. i've seen some silly cases with 800 but the frequent damage I take is around 400 to 700 damage, 700 is ofc after debuffs and a crit aswell since I run with AoM4. 400-450 is standardcasterdamage on me unless they are v high rank.

I seriosly dont know where you get your numbers from Kagato, or do you have some very low resists or something?

Where's 10% pierce? Ohh and i'm sowwy Shike

 

[Kagato]

Now add 50% crits and resist piercing with 1 second cast times.

 

[Shike]

Now add 50% crits and resist piercing with 1 second cast times.

there is a reason I didnt include resist piercing, and 50% critrate average 50% on the possible critdamage aswell, hardly any 900+ as a result of that nomatter how you twist or turn it around unless you have gimped resists or run without at least CLresists and even then 900+ isnt a common damage at all. I've played caster quite alot and tank quite alot too and your numbers are just grabbed out from the air imho.

Btw, what rank did one need for mom5 aswell as WP5 now again? Add in dex3 and aa3 aswell, purge1 is a must and wow.. look what a highrankcaster we suddenly got here. Shit, didnt know all casters had all those goodies tbh... (yes, im sarcastic..)

The only thing I find truly unbalancing right now with casters is relics, those up the damages to really rough lvls and its hard for healingclasses to keep up with assisting casters. Other than that, its fine.

 

[Shike]

btw, its 20% passive on heavy tanks and not 15% apparently