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The Perfect Solution for Heavy Tanks and RvR

Discussion in 'RvR Discussions' started by Zvixx, Mar 5, 2005.

  1. Zvixx

    Zvixx Fledgling Freddie

    For the sake of this argument, I want to set aside all of the exceptional players who have strong guilds and alliances who RvR regularly together. For those of you who fit into the aforementioned description, the issue of Tank survivability and overall usefulness in RvR may not be big a problem for you. What you, and Mythic must realize, is that players such as yourselves are the exception, and you do not represent the average player. /salute!

    For this discussion, a heavy tank will be any tank that can use a Large shield. (to be further limited as needed, but largely irrelevant to the discussion for now)

    One more qualification: I am trying to objectively look at the average scenario, not that time at band camp you got raped by a rr8L8 Armsmen who tore you a new one with his Halberd of Anal Separation. So pls, try not to picture that, but keep it in mind. On average, casters will destroy any tank long before he gets into melee range. (situational, yes, but still very reasonably true)

    We all know, though some will fight the facts till their last dying keystroke, that Magic casters are offensively overpowered when compared to heavy tanks, and tanks in general. Dishing out 3000+ damage in as little as 5-7 seconds, from 1500-2000+ range is insane and the root of the problem for tanks in NF RvR.

    So how do we bring some sort of balance without tipping the scale back to the /assist train that was so enjoyable for tanks in OF? I'm getting to that right now:

    Defense. Defense. and more Defense. But not like you may think. Allow me to illuminate. Right now in RvR, defensive abilities of tanks are limited, and largely secondary in their usefulness. (not useless, mind you, just very, very secondary). But what if, at the expense of movement, a high spec'd Large Shield user could "guard" another player, absorbing a large amount of ranged damage by essentially blocking it?

    "NO WAY, ARE YOU WTFCRAZY?" I hear the magic abusers saying. Hold on to your little staves, there is more. Once again, this ability is at the expense of movement, and it does not protect against melee-ranged attacks.

    In addition to this special ability only for high spec'd large shield users, what if the current "guard" ability not only gave a chance to block, but also gave an absorb buff to represent "partially blocked" damage? For example, any player with the guard ability, also bestowed an absorb buff based on shield spec. Now this ability would have limited range of course, just as the current "guard" ability does.

    Let's recap:
    ******************************************************
    Defensive Ability #1: Special ability that blocks ranged damage at a very high rate for both the tank and person being guarded. Think of a SM pet intercepting, but instead of a pet, its a big ass shield that's "intercepting" aka "blocking" the damage.
    ******************************************************

    Limitations:
    #1: Only Large Shield users receive this ability (or further limited to Hero, Warrior, Armsman)
    #1: Neither person can move, or the protection is broken.
    #2: Very tight radius, so player being guarded must be close enough to be guarded.
    #3: Only protects against damage from ranged attacks.
    #4: Does not work against melee attacks (including pbae)
    #5: Intercept/Block rate affected by Shield spec
    #6: This ability not available at lower shield specs.



    ******************************************************
    Defensive Ability #2: Partial Block Ability. A passive absorb buff, scaled with shield spec, that adds an absorb % to both the tank and the guarded player when the "Guard" ability is used.
    *****************************************************
    For example:
    Lvl 25 Shield: 1% Absorb Buff
    Lvl 32 Shield: 3% Absorb Buff
    Lvl 39 Shield: 5% Absorb Buff
    Lvl 44 Shield: 8% Absorb Buff
    Lvl 50 Shield: 11% Absorb Buff

    Limitations:
    #1: Only players with Large shield ability gain this ability (or further limited to Hero, Warrior, Armsman)
    #2: Guarded player must be within 350 units to receive benefit.
    #3: Multiple Attackers reduce effectiveness of the absorb value
    #4: Does not work if the Tank is under the effects of Stun or Mez.
    #5 Possible Timer on duration of the effect, making it an active ability with an instant cast time.

    ******************************************************

    Here is what I believe these two abilities will accomplish:

    #1: Bring added utility to the main tank classes, but also for ALL tank players, not just the power-gamers who are ML10 on all 14 of their toons o_O

    #2: Slooooow down the pace of RvR for all melee classes to get into range more often so they too, can have fun.

    #3: By slowing down RvR offensively from range, we bring more fighting between tanks into play (which is DAMN FUN!)

    #4 To Balance out *some* of the insane advantage Ranged damage classes have over melee *some* of the time.

    #5: Add a new dimension to RvR that is mostly lacking (real defense)

    #6: Bring back many players who left the game because they felt useless in the post-NF Dark Age of Castalot. (WoW isnt that good, lets bring back our friends to the best PvP system to date!)

    All in all, I believe these suggestions are balanced in the larger view of the RvR combat system, and neither tip the scales toward any realm. Casters across the board would experience reductions in damage, but only on certain targets, and in certain situations. Increasing Tank survivability by taking them off the caster's list of "easily killed" (a list which currently includes well-known people such as, Everybody, Mickey Rooney, and God.)will force Magic-casters to be more discretionary in who they choose as targets, but by no means gives tanks the license to kill they had in OF.

    [taken from vn boards.]
    sounds ivery interesting to me discuss.
     
  2. Vodkafairy

    Vodkafairy Fledgling Freddie

    sure, if all insta interrupts are removed :p
     
  3. Aliorm

    Aliorm Fledgling Freddie

    1st of all u should see the two views of tanks and mage:

    Mage is a cloth user with around 1500 hps, no abs in armor. They hit too much compared with a tank atm, but the possibilty to be interrupted is high atm.

    Tank is a reinforce/chain/plate user with around 2200 hps, 10%+ abs in armor. They without end can still doing dmg, but a mage cant do anything without power, and styles cant be interrupted.

    Atm a tank usually have things to interrupt (i.e. Banelord), Pure tanks, Hero, Arsman and Warrior have access to a RA called Soldier of Barricade, that giv u 25% for all resist every 10 mins and 30 secs duration.

    From the start of DaoC, tanks never had a melee debuff, like mages, after mages have debuff, now tanks activating Battler have acces to debuff the target and normally hit close to his cap dmg. A mage still cant hit cap with his debuff (vs. normal player).

    Like in all games/movies, the mages are god, they can kill all in a hit. and tanks like always, the last man to die :) Why change it? The history should continue :p

    I can say mages are a bit overpowered atm, but its dexterity's fault. Anyone with 390 dex can hit u 2000 dmg in few secs.

    But well, its Mythic who should fix/change the things :)

    Greetings
     
  4. Ilum

    Ilum One of Freddy's beloved

    Remember some things full tanks have...

    a) Stoicism
    b) Shitloads of hps
    c) Good melee dmg (Warriors spec 50/50, Armsman 50pole/42shield/39mele, and heroes similar to Armsmen)...can both block well vs melee or be offensive with less defense.
    d) Soldier's Barricade RA...25% absorb all damage for all group.

    Imo full tanks are not intented to be the answer vs casters, and they are a bit weak vs them...thats totally true. They are to counter offensive tanks and be ok dmg dealers.

    Oh, and...

    If you take the "average" full tank as an example, compare it to an "average" caster...so i guess we're talking rr4 ish, ml3 ish, and a couple of artifacts activated tops? Remember casters don't do that much damage without a good ToA spellcraft..
     
  5. Kagato

    Kagato Fledgling Freddie

    Stoicism is totally worthless, even with high detirmination you can still expect to be stood helpless for over a minute. Thats more then long enough to watch everyone around you die and not be able to do a thing about it.

    Soldiers Barricade is a poor and expensive shadow of its former self, most heavy tanks are low realm rank, which in itself is a sign of the troubles, few can afford to buy decent anti-CC and Soldiers Barricade. You need to spend around 30 levels to buy it a level thats at all useful.

    There is absolutely hundreds of ways to nullify melee damage now, ranging from alblative procs, to pbt to simply keeping out of melee range, yes you ALL know how easy it is to kite just out of being hit range, yet theres only a few ways to nullify magic damage.

    And thats before we start including all the RA's, ML abilities and ToA Artifacts with countless more tricks to screw over physical attacks and reduce them to nothing.

    The only arguement against tanks now is having alot of hit points, yet as mentioned before a caster now with high dex and casting speed bonus can rip through 3k hit points in less then 10 seconds.

    And if that fails they just snare, run away and try again.

    Personally I think casting speeds need to be looked at more then anything else, yes spells should hit hard, I agree, but the rate at which they can be unloaded is rediculous now in comparison to how many ways there is to deal with it, either offer better protection vs spells or slow them down.
     
  6. Phule_Gubben

    Phule_Gubben Fledgling Freddie

    There's a simple answer to this really.

    Patch 1.48
     
  7. Coldbeard

    Coldbeard Part of the furniture

    I fully agree with what Kagato wrote.

    Indeed it is , I mean .. casters with 2-3 brittleguards .. bt , maybe even pbt.. and sorc with melee immunity ra and lots of other crap. Its a god damn miracle if we even can get to melee the casters .. rooted ,snared, mezzed , stunned , twf'ed .. you name it, really miss the old determination. Too many caster toys out to play with.

    Had Soldier's Barricade II for a long time but respeced , it sounds more good than it is imo.

    More hp? well , can take 1-2 more nukes prolly ... thats really nice ..takes about .. 2-3 secs to cast?

    Guard/Bodyguard , I feel if theres any reason for inviting a warrior it is this. yet when im bging/guarding in rvr I feel it is totally useless. Person bg'ed will most likely get nuked dead fast anyway or assist train, consisting mostly of dual wielders cut block percent in two and cant really defend yourself good then.

    ToA made the damage potential(sp?) for casters mucho better than tanks with that sick high dex and %cast speed damage output and resist pierce. Also as said before , too many ways to counter melee. need more anti magic stuff. Im no expert on rvr, just state what I feel and what I have experienced.

    :eek6:
     
  8. Arid|Disci

    Arid|Disci Fledgling Freddie

    and alotta untrue shit in it as well
     
  9. Iorlas

    Iorlas Fledgling Freddie

    would you like to explain or are you just limited to random retarded remarkes?
     
  10. Puppet

    Puppet Part of the furniture


    New Soldiers Barricade isnt useless. Take a SB3 char in your group and notice the difference. The amount it 'eats up' on magic damage is pretty good; same for melee-damage. I dont see how Kagato says its a shim of the old SB which was 'only' effective against melee. Nowadays u often die to magic-damage so in that regard new-SB > old-SB.

    Its alot more expensive; but prolly available more often too (reuse time lowered on almost active RA's).

    I see a problem with the proposal; because Albion has 3x as many large-shield users out AND if u reduce it to Arms-Hero-Warrior then Albion once again gets no benefit out of it (being reasonable that is)
     
  11. Arid|Disci

    Arid|Disci Fledgling Freddie


    ooh really mate, seems like I'm not the only one with limitations :)
     
  12. Xajorkith

    Xajorkith Fledgling Freddie

    I don't really agree with the recommendations, the answer imho isn't to tweak the heavy tank but instead address the OP casters. "Many" classes are affected by OP casters not just the heavy tank, e.g. poor old Savages, zerkers etc.

    Casters do too much damage too fast. E.g. On Brynja I get mezzed I purged and jump into the water, I was hit 3 times after I lept for 700 ish and I died before I hit the water, (InfernalChaos) this is complete utter bollux. I wouldn’t have even been able to IP. Other than IP and perhaps AoM neither my Hunter nor Warrior can do anything about being killed.

    I think what makes casters OP (esp Sorcs) is crowd control, good defences, and ludicrous damage & cast speed.

    Crowd Control: Purge should give you immunity to "All" Crowd Control spells for 15 seconds, none of this Mez, stun, root, snare, bollux. I seem to spend most of the game not doing anything other than waiting for the "three booms" that will send me back to Svasud. This tweak will "potentially" allow me once in a while to get OOR of the caster or to head into mele.

    Good defences.
    Sorcs R5 ability needs to go; the rest should stay (BT, Brittles, MoC etc.).

    Address cast Speed:
    The archers "cast" speed is based on quick which as we all know is capped at 250. Why should casters be different? Slowing cast speed down would allow the victim to "potentially" react.

    Address Damge:
    Debuffing is overpowered and should just be removed from the game (procs are ok though!). Move casters dps back inline to say with an archer.
     
  13. Arid|Disci

    Arid|Disci Fledgling Freddie

    to be honest mate .. Charge > casters so does banelord so offensive tanks aren't rly affected by casters, casters aren't OP either imo

    hero, arms could use a direct boost atleast upto warrior level as they are clearly the best deffensive tank atm
     
  14. Fana

    Fana Fledgling Freddie

    The best answer imo would be to just give casters the same damage reduction drawback that melee gets when you increase swingspeed on a portion of their damage. That way the 0.8 sec castspeed guys out there would not be able to wtfpwn you in 3-4 casts. Having a high castspeed would still be usefull to keep other casters interupted etc, and win cc and such.

    Atm a caster that does say 400 damage/nuke does the same damage if he has 2 sec castspeed or 0.8 sec. If say half of that was affected by a speed decrease penalty it should be more like 280 per nuke with 0.8 speed. Mana cost should ofc also be divided to be less with increased speed. Same with healing and cc etc - this would force people to decide if speed or frontload/duration was more important.
     
  15. Kais

    Kais Banned

    all I ever see you write is whine about your warrior being totally unable to beat casters, consider this: there are ras ingame at present that can render mages dmg almost useless (rr10 dark spec sm nuking ppl for ~300 dmg after 50% cold debuff. But ofcourse you will have no clue about this since all you think is casters are overpowered, theres no way I can beat them, thus in your opinion there is no way to beat them. Some advice if your trying solo as a tank, get an item with a 1500 range insta dd/dot (3-4s to gain some ground on them) , use run through, use your ml abilities. (assuming you have thrown wep?)
     
  16. Dorin

    Dorin Fledgling Freddie

    cap dex on 350 or sumat.
     
  17. Coldbeard

    Coldbeard Part of the furniture

    Diddnt say there is no way you can beat them , just say they often get the upper hand because of more nice abilites and bonuses to play around with.

    Please enlighten me!

    I might try that. Yes I got throw weap.
     
  18. Puppet

    Puppet Part of the furniture


    Well Im pretty clueless then but what RA's can my ranger get to make a dark SM nuke for 300 only when cold-debuffed for 50% ?

    Caster-damage varies really alot. Same caster can nuke for 700 and on someone else (with 24% resist-buff, AoM4 etc) do 300. Add a Demoralization and the caster is nuking for 150~.

    I see little problems in caster-damage on FG vs FG with my druid having AoM4 and typical 40% + resists from resist-buffs.

    But when Im on my ranger and a fire-wiz nukes me for 600+ everytime I just think 'fuck this'. I think this is the core-problem really: For some people resist-buffs arent common. Albion often lacks friars, solo'ers etc etc. Stuff like resist-piercing is entirely wrong; instead make it work on resist-buffs so u dont penalize the guys out there without the resist-buffs. Also the problem the hard-cap on cast-speed aint 1.5 secs (like melee) AND doesnt scale down with cast-speed makes the matter worse. TOA added to the typical-caster 10% resist-piercing, 10% extra damage, 10% extra speed AND also 26 DEX, more INT / PIE etc etc.

    TOA'ed caster easily does 30% more dps then a non-TOA'ed caster. Add way more range, more defense against melee (brittles), more stupid things (ML9 pets, PN's, mines, snare-procs, insta snares, steathlore) and the typical caster has such good defenses against melee its just not possible to kill a caster unless the caster makes mistake after mistake. Especially casters with 2 forms of CC (mezz/root/stun ==> theurg,sorc, eld, SM etc) are just unbeatable for loads of classes; they will have too many tricks up their sleeves to deal with em.

    I know the game aint balanced about 1 vs 1; but its just stupid I have to shoot the typical Brynja camping SM about 10 times before I drop him through his brittles, his interceping pets and his PD.
     
  19. Kais

    Kais Banned

    Bedazzling Aura BAoD Active Grants the group increased resistance to magical damage for 30 seconds by the percentage listed. (Does not stack with Soldier's Barricade or Barrier of Fortitude) 600 sec 10% 20% 40% .. 30s of casters dealing crap dmg really hurts a caster heavy grp, casters in the grp I play in were complaining of really low dmg figures when the opposition used that ra.
     
  20. Jika

    Jika Fledgling Freddie

    if u know how to play heavy tank, there will be np killing a mage realy
     
  21. Arid|Disci

    Arid|Disci Fledgling Freddie

    does not change the fact that the heavy tanks could use a boost..certainly heroes and armsmen
     
  22. Jika

    Jika Fledgling Freddie

    did I say that they shouldnt get boost ? tho I dont see why heroes should get a boost .. damage is good etc :eek: cant wajn about shit damage
     
  23. Flimgoblin

    Flimgoblin It's my birthday today!

    usually takes around 3 months from the design team going "oh balls X is overpowered" and it finally hitting the game ;)

    remove int/piety buffs imo ;)
     
  24. Killrake

    Killrake Fledgling Freddie

    1 slow down castingspeed
    2 remove mess/stun from game, give all root/or no CC at all
    3 remove magic debuff

    And we will have long great fights, instead of mess, assistnuke..... all dead

    For what we all wants is fun I think, all of us remember long fights and think they are the best, fights like stun/mess nuke, nuke, nuke nobody remembers......
     
  25. Bracken

    Bracken Fledgling Freddie

    Soldiers barricade is ok - it's just too expensive. Cut the cost in half and it becomes a nice RA. As for casting speed I don't see why damage doesn't reduce with speed as it does for melee. There should be a pay off between speed and damage, then the caster has to choose whether to frontload or go for speed. And yes cc needs a review - either cut it or give us back cheap det. And take FZ off healers - it annoys me :p
     
  26. Kagato

    Kagato Fledgling Freddie

    Please tell me how a heavy tank can kill a bonedancer or a spirit master then please? or perhaps even a chanter with pet and 3 brittle guards up before being totally blown apart? Or even a mentalist with RR5 ability up?

    I've been playing a heavy tank for 3 years now and like to think I know most of the tricks by now but these days with ToA theres a great many fights you simply cannot win no matter how clever you get about it.

    And before people whine about my opinion being biased or re-rolling, im sure its the same for a hero or warrior trying to fight a Sorcerer with ml9 or a cabalist.
     
  27. Danya

    Danya Fledgling Freddie

    IMO, the only way to fix the tank/caster imbalance is to rework the interrupt system. ATM the slightest tweak tips the balance massively from casters to tanks or vice versa. The current system means casters are massively powerful till they get attacked, then completely gimped until they can get free of the attacker. It's too extreme; balancing such an all or nothing system is just not feasible.

    Most of the suggestions here just put casters back to pre-TOA - constantly interrupted just running about waiting for the tanks to finish them off while the healers desperately spam heal them. Not a good situation.
     
  28. Kagato

    Kagato Fledgling Freddie

    Matter of opinion :flame:

    Seriously though, even if interupting was easier, theres so many ways to nullify melee damage now tanks simply are not dangerous at range or in melee. Im going to have to make a complete list sometime methinks just for a laugh.

    Assist trains we're bad, yes, but it took 3 tanks or more to be effective.

    1 caster with a few artifacts and tricks can be indistructable all by himself and rip anything apart at clip range almost.

    Why do you think we keep getting them camping the tops of bridge towers near beno nuking everything to hell before any tank with 2,500 hp's can even get near the ladders.

    Whats a tank to do then? Get a catapult and throw a rock for 98 damage at them every 15 seconds? Its about the limit of our use at the moment.
     
  29. Thrice ThidAlt

    Thrice ThidAlt Fledgling Freddie

    Throw Weapon gains you 3-4 secs to get in melee range, where you.. Stand, fumbling with your weapon for 11-12 secs? :(

    Something to throw into the considerations here, capping dex/cast speed will make high dex races less viable. Slowing cast speeds in any shape or form will tilt the deck in favour of instas - especially in regard to CC.

    Personally..

    I like the other suggestion better. Faster cast spells have less effect, be it duration or damage. CC classes NEED to go for fast casts, otherwise they will be mezzed before they get them off. As a natural consequence of this, you would get reduced CC duration across the board.

    Hell, most casters will probably go mainly for speed, though maybe not as extremely as now.. If for nothing else then simply to be interrupted less. Which also leads to less magic damage. If a caster goes for slow and hard, he won't get as many spells off, if he goes for fast they'll hit for a bit less.

    Problem then is again, instas. Taken to the extreme, warlock ignores dex and castspd% completely in template, just like pre-nerf zerks did with qui. I think we all remember how that one ends.
     
  30. Killerbee

    Killerbee Fledgling Freddie

    Give it to non cloth magic users as well!!! ;)
     

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