Zvixx
Fledgling Freddie
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2004
- Messages
- 732
For the sake of this argument, I want to set aside all of the exceptional players who have strong guilds and alliances who RvR regularly together. For those of you who fit into the aforementioned description, the issue of Tank survivability and overall usefulness in RvR may not be big a problem for you. What you, and Mythic must realize, is that players such as yourselves are the exception, and you do not represent the average player. /salute!
For this discussion, a heavy tank will be any tank that can use a Large shield. (to be further limited as needed, but largely irrelevant to the discussion for now)
One more qualification: I am trying to objectively look at the average scenario, not that time at band camp you got raped by a rr8L8 Armsmen who tore you a new one with his Halberd of Anal Separation. So pls, try not to picture that, but keep it in mind. On average, casters will destroy any tank long before he gets into melee range. (situational, yes, but still very reasonably true)
We all know, though some will fight the facts till their last dying keystroke, that Magic casters are offensively overpowered when compared to heavy tanks, and tanks in general. Dishing out 3000+ damage in as little as 5-7 seconds, from 1500-2000+ range is insane and the root of the problem for tanks in NF RvR.
So how do we bring some sort of balance without tipping the scale back to the /assist train that was so enjoyable for tanks in OF? I'm getting to that right now:
Defense. Defense. and more Defense. But not like you may think. Allow me to illuminate. Right now in RvR, defensive abilities of tanks are limited, and largely secondary in their usefulness. (not useless, mind you, just very, very secondary). But what if, at the expense of movement, a high spec'd Large Shield user could "guard" another player, absorbing a large amount of ranged damage by essentially blocking it?
"NO WAY, ARE YOU WTFCRAZY?" I hear the magic abusers saying. Hold on to your little staves, there is more. Once again, this ability is at the expense of movement, and it does not protect against melee-ranged attacks.
In addition to this special ability only for high spec'd large shield users, what if the current "guard" ability not only gave a chance to block, but also gave an absorb buff to represent "partially blocked" damage? For example, any player with the guard ability, also bestowed an absorb buff based on shield spec. Now this ability would have limited range of course, just as the current "guard" ability does.
Let's recap:
******************************************************
Defensive Ability #1: Special ability that blocks ranged damage at a very high rate for both the tank and person being guarded. Think of a SM pet intercepting, but instead of a pet, its a big ass shield that's "intercepting" aka "blocking" the damage.
******************************************************
Limitations:
#1: Only Large Shield users receive this ability (or further limited to Hero, Warrior, Armsman)
#1: Neither person can move, or the protection is broken.
#2: Very tight radius, so player being guarded must be close enough to be guarded.
#3: Only protects against damage from ranged attacks.
#4: Does not work against melee attacks (including pbae)
#5: Intercept/Block rate affected by Shield spec
#6: This ability not available at lower shield specs.
******************************************************
Defensive Ability #2: Partial Block Ability. A passive absorb buff, scaled with shield spec, that adds an absorb % to both the tank and the guarded player when the "Guard" ability is used.
*****************************************************
For example:
Lvl 25 Shield: 1% Absorb Buff
Lvl 32 Shield: 3% Absorb Buff
Lvl 39 Shield: 5% Absorb Buff
Lvl 44 Shield: 8% Absorb Buff
Lvl 50 Shield: 11% Absorb Buff
Limitations:
#1: Only players with Large shield ability gain this ability (or further limited to Hero, Warrior, Armsman)
#2: Guarded player must be within 350 units to receive benefit.
#3: Multiple Attackers reduce effectiveness of the absorb value
#4: Does not work if the Tank is under the effects of Stun or Mez.
#5 Possible Timer on duration of the effect, making it an active ability with an instant cast time.
******************************************************
Here is what I believe these two abilities will accomplish:
#1: Bring added utility to the main tank classes, but also for ALL tank players, not just the power-gamers who are ML10 on all 14 of their toons
#2: Slooooow down the pace of RvR for all melee classes to get into range more often so they too, can have fun.
#3: By slowing down RvR offensively from range, we bring more fighting between tanks into play (which is DAMN FUN!)
#4 To Balance out *some* of the insane advantage Ranged damage classes have over melee *some* of the time.
#5: Add a new dimension to RvR that is mostly lacking (real defense)
#6: Bring back many players who left the game because they felt useless in the post-NF Dark Age of Castalot. (WoW isnt that good, lets bring back our friends to the best PvP system to date!)
All in all, I believe these suggestions are balanced in the larger view of the RvR combat system, and neither tip the scales toward any realm. Casters across the board would experience reductions in damage, but only on certain targets, and in certain situations. Increasing Tank survivability by taking them off the caster's list of "easily killed" (a list which currently includes well-known people such as, Everybody, Mickey Rooney, and God.)will force Magic-casters to be more discretionary in who they choose as targets, but by no means gives tanks the license to kill they had in OF.
[taken from vn boards.]
sounds ivery interesting to me discuss.
For this discussion, a heavy tank will be any tank that can use a Large shield. (to be further limited as needed, but largely irrelevant to the discussion for now)
One more qualification: I am trying to objectively look at the average scenario, not that time at band camp you got raped by a rr8L8 Armsmen who tore you a new one with his Halberd of Anal Separation. So pls, try not to picture that, but keep it in mind. On average, casters will destroy any tank long before he gets into melee range. (situational, yes, but still very reasonably true)
We all know, though some will fight the facts till their last dying keystroke, that Magic casters are offensively overpowered when compared to heavy tanks, and tanks in general. Dishing out 3000+ damage in as little as 5-7 seconds, from 1500-2000+ range is insane and the root of the problem for tanks in NF RvR.
So how do we bring some sort of balance without tipping the scale back to the /assist train that was so enjoyable for tanks in OF? I'm getting to that right now:
Defense. Defense. and more Defense. But not like you may think. Allow me to illuminate. Right now in RvR, defensive abilities of tanks are limited, and largely secondary in their usefulness. (not useless, mind you, just very, very secondary). But what if, at the expense of movement, a high spec'd Large Shield user could "guard" another player, absorbing a large amount of ranged damage by essentially blocking it?
"NO WAY, ARE YOU WTFCRAZY?" I hear the magic abusers saying. Hold on to your little staves, there is more. Once again, this ability is at the expense of movement, and it does not protect against melee-ranged attacks.
In addition to this special ability only for high spec'd large shield users, what if the current "guard" ability not only gave a chance to block, but also gave an absorb buff to represent "partially blocked" damage? For example, any player with the guard ability, also bestowed an absorb buff based on shield spec. Now this ability would have limited range of course, just as the current "guard" ability does.
Let's recap:
******************************************************
Defensive Ability #1: Special ability that blocks ranged damage at a very high rate for both the tank and person being guarded. Think of a SM pet intercepting, but instead of a pet, its a big ass shield that's "intercepting" aka "blocking" the damage.
******************************************************
Limitations:
#1: Only Large Shield users receive this ability (or further limited to Hero, Warrior, Armsman)
#1: Neither person can move, or the protection is broken.
#2: Very tight radius, so player being guarded must be close enough to be guarded.
#3: Only protects against damage from ranged attacks.
#4: Does not work against melee attacks (including pbae)
#5: Intercept/Block rate affected by Shield spec
#6: This ability not available at lower shield specs.
******************************************************
Defensive Ability #2: Partial Block Ability. A passive absorb buff, scaled with shield spec, that adds an absorb % to both the tank and the guarded player when the "Guard" ability is used.
*****************************************************
For example:
Lvl 25 Shield: 1% Absorb Buff
Lvl 32 Shield: 3% Absorb Buff
Lvl 39 Shield: 5% Absorb Buff
Lvl 44 Shield: 8% Absorb Buff
Lvl 50 Shield: 11% Absorb Buff
Limitations:
#1: Only players with Large shield ability gain this ability (or further limited to Hero, Warrior, Armsman)
#2: Guarded player must be within 350 units to receive benefit.
#3: Multiple Attackers reduce effectiveness of the absorb value
#4: Does not work if the Tank is under the effects of Stun or Mez.
#5 Possible Timer on duration of the effect, making it an active ability with an instant cast time.
******************************************************
Here is what I believe these two abilities will accomplish:
#1: Bring added utility to the main tank classes, but also for ALL tank players, not just the power-gamers who are ML10 on all 14 of their toons
#2: Slooooow down the pace of RvR for all melee classes to get into range more often so they too, can have fun.
#3: By slowing down RvR offensively from range, we bring more fighting between tanks into play (which is DAMN FUN!)
#4 To Balance out *some* of the insane advantage Ranged damage classes have over melee *some* of the time.
#5: Add a new dimension to RvR that is mostly lacking (real defense)
#6: Bring back many players who left the game because they felt useless in the post-NF Dark Age of Castalot. (WoW isnt that good, lets bring back our friends to the best PvP system to date!)
All in all, I believe these suggestions are balanced in the larger view of the RvR combat system, and neither tip the scales toward any realm. Casters across the board would experience reductions in damage, but only on certain targets, and in certain situations. Increasing Tank survivability by taking them off the caster's list of "easily killed" (a list which currently includes well-known people such as, Everybody, Mickey Rooney, and God.)will force Magic-casters to be more discretionary in who they choose as targets, but by no means gives tanks the license to kill they had in OF.
[taken from vn boards.]
sounds ivery interesting to me discuss.