Formula 1 The F1 jibber jabber thread.

[kirennia]

Agreed about all of the drivers.

In the three top teams I've been supporting Webber, Massa and Button more then the others.

Webber, people pretty much wrote off and lets face it, the alternative has proven to be quite immature and annoying at the best of times. It's a real shame because he could be fantastic although I think he'd be as bad a winner as he is in loosing.

Button I prefer over Hamilton by a fair stretch because he had the balls to move into a new team where just about everyone in the media wrote him off and so far he's performed admirably in a car which I'd hazard a guess, would be developed more towards Hamilton then to Kovaleinen. He's proven to be a very fair racer even if his qualifying performance has been seriously lacking this year. Hamilton, I've found over the course of the last few years, every time I start to think he's actually alright, he goes and does something momumentally stupid. I'd put this down to 'innocence' as I think he's probably led quite a protected life but no doubt in the future he can start to gain a bit more of a personality as he's started to do this season.

Massa I've supported and respected ever since he moved to Ferrari. He started off as Captain Erratic, looked out of his depth and to a degree, I think lacked self confidence. He was lucky enough to move to Ferrari where Schumacher was undoubtedly the number one driver yet he began to prove himself and towards the end of 2006, was performing on par with the most successful driver of all time.

As Kimi, widely regarded at the time to be the fastest of the new flock of drivers came in, Massa continued to be mocked by the british media yet continued to improve and by the end of Kimis career, Massa was regularly outperforming him. His crash in Hungary was horrific and I didn't really think he'd be able to come back and beat Alonso in his first years return but then, I didn't even think he'd be performing as well as he has this year. Next year I have little doubt that he'll be snapping away at Alonsos heels and perhaps even beating him. As someone put down so much, the nicest and one of the unluckiest drivers on the field, I'd like to see him win at least one championship more then anyonelse. Plus lets face it, you'd have to be pretty cold hearted to not crack a smile when you hear Smedley and him talking over the radio.

 

[kirennia]

Jup - if you think about it, if Hamilton was close enough to the front, Button pits 2nd and Hamilton holds Alonso up behind him so when Alonso pits Button leapfrogs.

One of the reasons I was so impressed w/ Hamilton when he won the title was because his teammate wasn't helping him win races with any tactics - compared to Ferrari who mosdef were.

He didn't need the help, the reliability of that car was unbelievable in both of his first years (although that said, Heikki did seem to make more braking 'errors' everytime Hamilton was behind him).

 

[ECA]

He didn't need the help, the reliability of that car was unbelievable in both of his first years (although that said, Heikki did seem to make more braking 'errors' everytime Hamilton was behind him).

Of course it matters, if you have a driver on a long first stop strategy specifically to block a faster driver from a rival team so your intended driver can build an advantage... but the other driver has no such similar cover it's a huge advantage for you and a huge disadvantage for them.

 

[Kryten]

I agree with Jup - I'm not really too fussed who wins as long as it's not Alonso, because I really can't stand the tit. He's a good racer but his greater-than-though attitude doesn't exactly help.

Always liked Hamilton for his ability to at least try and race. It goes to show how much better he is than the rest when even in his poorest season he was the most prolific overtaker out of the entire field. Yeah he'll make mistakes but he's only human. He cocked up this weekend, both in the choice to run without the F-Duct and in his bodged overtake, but both were attempted for good reason. It didn't pay off, he put his hands up and said it was his own fault. No biggy. And yeah, look up his GP2 performances and tell me he's shit, and I'll be suggesting you nip to Specsavers sharpish.

As said, Button has proved a lot by moving to McLaren where he knew he'd be treated second best. He's proved that he's worth more than that and is indeed a team player. The relationship between the two Brits isn't faked, it's clear they have huge amounts of respect for eachother and it works wonders. They've given us great racing between them, and are different enough in their styles to make it work. Long may that continue.

As long as the racing is as good as it has been all year, who can really complain. The idea of watching sports is to go through all the ups and downs - what's the point of always backing the winner. Red Bull are fully deserving of their points and wins so far and I'd quite like to see Webber take the championship. With so many competitors of a great ability, so many cars of great speeds and strengths and so much controversy all at the same time, it's great viewing. And all that overtaking, or at least the attempts. It's a different sport this year to what it has been for the last 10 or so. That's no bad thing.

Looking forward to the 1.6l turbocharged motors in 2013 with aplomb

One final thing..

:england:

 

[ECA]

Bring back unregulated engine power in WRC and F1 and we'd see a big rise in interest imo.

Spoiler

And also deaths

 

[leviathane]

nah just need to bring back the turbo's.

 

[ST^]

Ok, who would you rate highly as a racer? Not just a fast peddler, an actual racer. No doubt Schumacher has been the most successful, but he won by good qualifying, and then 2 or 3 really fast laps when it really mattered especially in and out laps. He was almost always in a far far superior car, with a submissive teammate.

This is surely a joke post.

 

[Kryten]

Schumacher also benefited from a variably weak field too. He soon started to show weakness when others were stronger (take Hakkinen as a good example). Williams had a good car with a calm driver and Hill would have taken a championship away from him if he didn't cheat his way out. No doubt he's one of the best racers but circumstance was as much to thank as his skill.

When you have a field full of people of undoubted natural talent such as Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Rosberg, Barrichello, Kobayashi, Schumacher just to name a few we're always going to be subject to a cracking season.

 

[Gumbo]

It's not a joke post, and I'm not taking away his achievements, my point is that he didn't have to do much racing in his golden period. On the rare occasions where he wasn't simply leading from the front he benefited more than anyone else from awesome strategy calls, and the ability to turn up the speed for 2 or 3 laps, together with awesome in and out laps, and make up the places in the pits. When it came to having to race anyone he was often made to appear ordinary or resort to cheating. Taking out Hill and Villeneuve are obvious examples.

As a time triallist Schumacher was peerless, as an out and out racer, he might just scrape into an all time top 10.

 

[kirennia]

Taking out Hill and Villeneuve are obvious examples.

This comment for bringing Schumacher into disrepute has occasionally puzzled me. While I don't necessarily think he was the best racer of all time, I do wonder why the same isnt said about both Prost and Senna having done the same to each other (amongst others). Granted at least they were honest about it but if it's the honesty which troubles people most then surely that wouldn't take away from a racers actual ability, just their popularity?

 

[leviathane]

idd always bugs me when people go on about how schumacher cheated his way to winning, and then go on to say Senna was the pinnacle of racing drivers. Senna who on the first turn of a race track crashed into his rival to seal championship victory. Ye Senna was probably the greatest driver but schuie was as well in his day.

 

[ST^]

As a time triallist Schumacher was peerless, as an out and out racer, he might just scrape into an all time top 10.

How are you defining a 'racer' then? You agree that he was the fastest (and he was, by some margin). What else? He has always been great at overtaking and also defending his position. He has always been a very smart driver who knew his shit, probably put more input into his car setup and even development than any of todays drivers. I struggle to find one area that he didn't excel in. Diplomacy, maybe?

Speaking of superior cars, we only saw Lewis drive a shit car for one season and what happened? He was shit.

 

[ECA]

How are you defining a 'racer' then? You agree that he was the fastest (and he was, by some margin). What else? He has always been great at overtaking and also defending his position. He has always been a very smart driver who knew his shit, probably put more input into his car setup and even development than any of todays drivers. I struggle to find one area that he didn't excel in. Diplomacy, maybe?

Speaking of superior cars, we only saw Lewis drive a shit car for one season and what happened? He was shit.

He won two races with a "shit car" when he was "shit" and finished 5th in the championship ( after the brawn and red bulls ).

 

[Gumbo]

It is hard to quantify my view of someone as a 'racer'. Senna was, Prost wasn't. Hunt was, Jackie Stewart wasn't. Gilles Villeneuve was, Lauda wasn't. Hamilton is, Button isn't.

It's funny, being what I would consider a 'racer', a never say die attitude, overtaking, taking the chances, driving around problems with the car, adapting to conditions, etc often doesn't mean being the most successful. Look at my examples of contemporary drivers above. It does mean, to me, who I want to see succeed. It means who I root for, who I respect, and who excites me.

Statistics alone tell one story, and I have no problem with people being rated based purely on numbers, but I remember Senna's drive at Donnington in '93, Gilles Villeneuve at Dijon in '79, and yes, I know it's GP2, but Hamilton in Turkey in 2006 is probably the most impressive drive I've ever witnessed in a racing car. I don't think I can remember a single stand out race from Prost and he won 4 titles. The same for Schumacher. But there you go, that's what makes sport so interesting.

 

[ST^]

It's funny, being what I would consider a 'racer', a never say die attitude, overtaking, taking the chances, driving around problems with the car, adapting to conditions, etc often doesn't mean being the most successful. Look at my examples of contemporary drivers above. It does mean, to me, who I want to see succeed. It means who I root for, who I respect, and who excites me.

Well to me, you just described Michael Schumacher but whatever. I'm not going to continue a discussion about whether or not Lewis Hamilton has any racing quality in a greater quantity than Schumi had. It's ridiculous

 

[Krazeh]

Well to me, you just described Michael Schumacher but whatever. I'm not going to continue a discussion about whether or not Lewis Hamilton has any racing quality in a greater quantity than Schumi had. It's ridiculous

I agree, we all know Hamilton has more, silly to discuss it further.

 

[ECA]

Well to me, you just described Michael Schumacher but whatever. I'm not going to continue a discussion about whether or not Lewis Hamilton has any racing quality in a greater quantity than Schumi had. It's ridiculous

By the power of hypnotoad we all know I disagree with ST as he's an alonso cum guzzler but he's spot on here, it's ridiculous to compare - just appreciate them both.

 

[Rulke]

Hamilton is definitely a racer, but I also like his attitude - in the post race interview he admitted he'd made a mistake and also that he was glad button scored well. How many other drivers would say either of those things?

 

[Scouse]

I dunno, any who'd been through media training since the age of 12?

I do so hate the shortarse twat

 

[caLLous]

Yeah, I'm as big a Hamilton fan as anyone (more so than Scouse anyway ) but he kinda had to say the accident was his fault and he would've looked a bit of an arse if he had said he was gutted that Button got some decent points. Team player and all that.

 

[kirennia]

I know it's GP2, but Hamilton in Turkey in 2006 is probably the most impressive drive I've ever witnessed in a racing car.

Just watched it and indeed that was a fine race; in many ways in encapsulates his performance in formula one nicely in just one race.

He started off with a spin, then had another accident which he was lucky to get away with, then happened upon a much slower field then the car he was in. After catching Piquet and Glock however, he showed sheer brilliance in his drive, overtaking in an unbelievably professional, yet aggressive manner. Then in the final two laps, he put in the fastest laps of the race to make upto second place from god knows where on the grid. Bravo.

Accident prone occasionally through pretty daft errors, blessings of a good car BUT, when it comes down to some proper racing with cars more akin to his own machinery, he can pull off some truly outstanding moves and be incredibly quick.

 

[Gumbo]

You summed that up nicely. Don't forget though, GP2 cars and engines are all identical, so the early part of the field he was passing being slower was simply down to them not being as good

 

[kirennia]

Stolen from another site:

Hamilton 75
Webber 74
Alonso 67
Button 67
Vettel 66
Massa 50
Rosberg 43
Kubica 42
Schumacher 15
Sutil 15
Barrichello 10
Kobayashi 6
Petrov 6
Hulkenberg 5
Liuzzi 2
DelaRosa 2
Buemi 1
Alguersuari 0

Intweeging!

 

[ST^]

Stolen from another site:

Hamilton 75
Webber 74
Alonso 67
Button 67
Vettel 66
Massa 50
Rosberg 43
Kubica 42
Schumacher 15
Sutil 15
Barrichello 10
Kobayashi 6
Petrov 6
Hulkenberg 5
Liuzzi 2
DelaRosa 2
Buemi 1
Alguersuari 0

Intweeging!

What the fuck is this supposed to be?

 

[Krazeh]

What the fuck is this supposed to be?

I would've thought it was fairly obvious. It's how the Drivers Championship would look currently if they hadn't changed the scoring system.

 

[ECA]

Current engine count usage:

Spoiler

Engine usage to date:
McLaren Mercedes
1 Jenson Button 7
2 Lewis Hamilton 7

Mercedes GP
3 Michael Schumacher 7
4 Nico Rosberg 7

RBR Renault
5 Sebastian Vettel 7
6 Mark Webber 6

Ferrari
7 Felipe Massa 8
8 Fernando Alonso 8

Williams Cosworth
9 Rubens Barrichello 6
10 Nico Hulkenberg 7

Renault
11 Robert Kubica 6
12 Vitaly Pertrov 6

Force India Mercedes
14 Adrian Sutil 7
15 Vitantonio Liuzzi 7

STR Ferrari
16 Sebastien Buemi 7
17 Jaime Alguersuari 7

Lotus Cosworth
18 Jarno Trulli 7
19 Heikki Kovalainen 7

HRT Cosworth
20 Sakon Yamamoto 7
21 Bruno Senna 7

BMW Sauber Ferrari
22 Nick Heidfeld (formerly Pedro de la Rosa’s car) 9
23 Kamui Kobayashi 7

Virgin Cosworth
24 Timo Glock 7
25 Lucas Di Grassi 7

Alonso up the shitter, Webber looks good.

If you go over you're engine allocation it's an automatic 10 place grid drop from qualifying if you put a new engine in.

 

[Krazeh]

Alonso up the shitter, Webber looks good.

If you go over you're engine allocation it's an automatic 10 place grid drop from qualifying if you put a new engine in.

There's nothing to stop them putting old engines back into their cars. It remains to be seen whether any of the front runners will actually need to use a new engine, regardless of what their current engine usage may suggest.

 

[ECA]

Yes but the old engines will have to be run at a lower performance profile, compared to a new engine ( Webber ).

 

[kirennia]

What the fuck is this supposed to be?

Heh, good point, I did forget to say what it was; nice and eloquently put though.

As a side note, anyone buying the F1 game for this friday? Friend of mine is getting it with nice steering wheel etc, gonna be awesome.

 

[caLLous]

Yep Alonso is a bit screwed, and you never know what will happen with Redbulls, although it feels like Webber's has been more consistent than Vettels (what have you got to say about that, Eddie Jordan?? )

On a sidenote, F1 2010 out on Friday. Saw an ad with Xbox gameplay, it's looking lovely! Can't wait to see just how good it looks on PC. I didn't realise Anthony Davidson was so involved with it til I saw all those development diary vids on youtube, he (alongside David Croft) is clearly the best part of BBC F1 coverage.

And yes ECA, it was me that asked you what your problem with Jonathan Legard was last season, I get it now.