Formula 1 The F1 jibber jabber thread.

[ST^]

I don't think it needs anything from Massa, the radio messages and the manner in which the overtake took place is more than enough evidence that Massa was instructed to move out of the way.

They didn't say "move out of the way" or "let Alonso past", so it isn't an order unless Massa says he felt it was.

 

[Krazeh]

They didn't say "move out of the way" or "let Alonso past", so it isn't an order unless Massa says he felt it was.

I'm sorry but you can't use the claim "we didn't explicitly say move" as a defence. Of course they're never going to say that when they know that team orders are banned. It always has to be looked at in terms of the meaning rather than the words of messages and then subsequent actions on track. Massa as much as admitted in the press conference that he let Alonso past because he had to, didn't even bother to make up an excuse to try and make it look like a mistake on his part.

 

[ST^]

You're not seeing the difference between thinking something and proving it.

 

[ST^]

Schumacher defending Ferrari, what a legend

 

[Krazeh]

You're not seeing the difference between thinking something and proving it.

No I am seeing the difference, I just don't think you need to have an explicit confession to be able to have enough evidence to say that team orders were used by Ferarri.

 

[ST^]

Basically, there wouldn't be a problem if it was McLaren, who have already done some team orders business this year.

 

[Krazeh]

Basically, there wouldn't be a problem if it was McLaren, who have already done some team orders business this year.

Is that a general comment or aimed at me? Either way it's a pathetic argument to try and defend what Ferrari have done today.

 

[ECA]

Lol ? Yeah it's not like Hamilton has ever been fucked hard anally by the FIA..... clear Mclaren favoritism!

 

[Kryten]

Ferrari need penalising for it, it was a little too blatant in my eyes. The same has been done in the past and penalties were dished out post-race.

Lets not forget, last time Hamilton was told that Button wouldn't pass him - Button passed him.

We're talking about Ferrari here. Not exactly the team you'd trust to keep to the rules.

Incidentally, FIA site is rather dead - think it's being DDOSd, probably pissed fans or mafia..

 

[ST^]

Lol ? Yeah it's not like Hamilton has ever been fucked hard anally by the FIA..... clear Mclaren favoritism!

Not talking about punishments, but the reaction here.

 

[Embattle]

nooooooooooo time for looooooooosers cos we are the championssssssssssssssssss




of the worrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrld (in football and in a bit, formula 1)

He has won one race and by the traditional Spanish method...being given it.

Alonso is a good driver although out of a field of whinny F1 drivers he certainly seems to hold the number 1 position or at least equal with a few others.

PS It was team orders, just an attempt not to be so obvious.

 

[Krazeh]

autosport.com - F1 News: Ferrari fined, referred to WMSC

Ferrari have been fined $100,000 and are having the case referred to the World Motor Sport Council who will decide if any further action should be taken against them.

 

[Kryten]

Ferrari fined $100,000 for breach of rules with the results still standing. That's peanuts. Effectively, Ferrari have gotten away with cheating again. It's OK to cheat as long as you can pay a few quid for the right to do so They'll piss 100k up a wall quite happily if it means winning a championship. A race win will be worth 10 times that to Alonso let alone Ferrari.


PS: Jinx!

 

[Krazeh]

Effectively, Ferrari have gotten away with cheating again.

Remains to see what the WMSC decide to do, they might not have gotten away with it just yet.

 

[caLLous]

They need to do more, as said a fine means very little in the context of a championship, especially such a "small" fine to a manufacturer with the finances of Ferrari. Even if they gave Massa the win and put Alonso down to second it would be something. I think a 3 race ban is a bit strong but they need to do something that hurts Ferrari, ie demotion or disqualification from the next race.

I watched the whole F1 Forum thing after the race, it was actually good - Christian Horner was pretty clear about where he stood but I suppose you can't go to an opposing principal for an unbiased opinion.

I hope a video of that drivers' press conference makes it onto the web, some of the questions that Ted Kravitz reported had been asked sounded like they made Alonso squirm.

 

[kirennia]

I hope a video of that drivers' press conference makes it onto the web, some of the questions that Ted Kravitz reported had been asked sounded like they made Alonso squirm.

Well here's the transcription at least:

autosport.com - F1 News: Post-race press conference - Germany

 

[Jupitus]

Lots of debate on this one.... fact is that had Massa and Alonso been allowed to race head to head we could well have seen them tripping over each other, or slowing themselves down collectively enough for Vettel to overhaul them, both of which would have been true excitement for the sport. Whether it is right or not to have team orders is one discussion, but not this one. The fact is the rule IS there and Ferrari blatantly broke it. Leaves a sour taste, IMHO

 

[ST^]

The fact is the rule IS there and Ferrari blatantly broke it. Leaves a sour taste, IMHO

Red Bull and McLaren have had team orders this year too. I'm sure Renault would if Petrov could actually get in Kubica's way. The only difference is that Ferrari did it a little more blatantly, but it doesn't mean the rest of the grid is innocent.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Lots of debate on this one.... fact is that had Massa and Alonso been allowed to race head to head we could well have seen them tripping over each other, or slowing themselves down collectively enough for Vettel to overhaul them, both of which would have been true excitement for the sport. Whether it is right or not to have team orders is one discussion, but not this one. The fact is the rule IS there and Ferrari blatantly broke it. Leaves a sour taste, IMHO

The rule is there: yes.

The rule is stupid: yes.

They blatantly broke a stupid rule: yes.

Is it something totaly new: NO.

Teams have been giving "orders" all the time. Remeber the famous Whitmarsh line "go on fuel consumption save mode".

Conclusion: fine Ferrari and get rid of that stupid rule. After all, it is a team based sport, they pay the drivers and have a lot of investment in risk, why allow your 2 drivers to fight over a position when:
- one of your drivers is fighting for the title while the other has been writen off long ago.
- your team is still fighting for the constructors championship, why would you risk a crash btwn your 2 cars?

My 2 cents

 

[Ch3tan]

Vasc: It undermines the driver championship. The team sport aspect is only really relevant to the constructors championship, and it wouldn't have mattered who finished in first of them for those points.

 

[ECA]

Tbh I dont care about it affecting the championships - but I felt robbed as a fan yesterday - an entertaining race ending was taken away by a shitty move.

 

[DaGaffer]

Conclusion: fine Ferrari and get rid of that stupid rule. After all, it is a team based sport, they pay the drivers and have a lot of investment in risk, why allow your 2 drivers to fight over a position when:
- one of your drivers is fighting for the title while the other has been writen off long ago.
- your team is still fighting for the constructors championship, why would you risk a crash btwn your 2 cars?

Team orders were an integral part of the sport until Ferrari (ooh what a surprise) rubbed it in fans' faces (then reversed back, got out of the car and waved their arses at the fans whilst shitting on a copy of the rule book*) with Schumacher's theft of the Austrian GP from Barrichello in 2002. Seems they still haven't learned their lesson.













*may not have literally happened.

 

[kirennia]

It's not so much Ferrari I'm sad for, more Massa... as for those who are saying this is just typical of Ferrari, it's also typical of just about all title contenders throughout the history of the sport. While before 2002 it was completely fine, since the rule has been brought in, McLaren, Renault and Ferrari have all been heavily guilty of doing just this.

BBC Sport - F1 - No team orders at McLaren, insists Lewis Hamilton

Second video down, about 5:50 in... there are plenty more examples as well...

 

[kirennia]

Q. (Alessandro Berbic – Fox TV Serbia) Felipe, coming back here a year after your terrible accident, do you think that you're going to feel a bit uneasy on the first couple of laps?

Felipe Massa: For sure not. It's really nothing to do with my way of working. To be honest, I don't remember a single thing from the accident. I don't remember the corner. I saw it many times, but I don't remember anything, so when you close the visor, you don't think about these things, you just think about doing your best and working and achieving the maximum you can. So for sure, nothing of this thing has happened and I'm pretty sure that Rubens has a very, very strong spring on his car now.

Rubens Barrichello: I promise you that he's really like that. I don't think he will fear anything. Three or four months ago we were playing poker back in Brazil and he just said ‘I have a surprise for you' and he put the helmet in which he had the accident on the table and it destroyed my night, completely destroyed my night and I started losing money with the poker and he had fun with it, so I think he's going to drive flat out without a… I'm driving for a different team, so you're safe now, it's OK.



LOL.

 

[Kryten]

After watching practice today and closely watching the front wings of the Red Bulls and Ferrari's, I can only ask "how the hell is that legal".
McLaren are quite right to query the legality with the FIA. When you can visibly see the wings moving and leaning into corners there is clearly too much flex, and when they're fitting skids to the bottom of the endplates it's clear they're stopping ground-damage as a result.
Interesting times ahead.

 

[ST^]

After watching practice today and closely watching the front wings of the Red Bulls and Ferrari's, I can only ask "how the hell is that legal".
McLaren are quite right to query the legality with the FIA. When you can visibly see the wings moving and leaning into corners there is clearly too much flex, and when they're fitting skids to the bottom of the endplates it's clear they're stopping ground-damage as a result.
Interesting times ahead.

It is legal because they're made to pass the test according to regulations.

 

[Kryten]

It's legal because they're exploiting a weakness or loophole in the testing procedure to test for wing flex. So technically, it's not legal.
It's akin to not being caught for stealing. It's still wrong, but they just can't prove you did it.

This says it all IMO (and is from China!)

 

[Jupitus]

That's a good clip Kryt - look closely though at the right front wheel and angle of the suspension - it looks like the whole front is flexing under heavy breaking thus moving the wing closer to the ground, no?

 

[ST^]

That's a good clip Kryt - look closely though at the right front wheel and angle of the suspension - it looks like the whole front is flexing under heavy breaking thus moving the wing closer to the ground, no?

No, look at the nose, it doesn't move at all.

 

[ST^]

It's legal because they're exploiting a weakness or loophole in the testing procedure to test for wing flex. So technically, it's not legal.
It's akin to not being caught for stealing. It's still wrong, but they just can't prove you did it.[/img]

It's just the same thing as the double diffuser. Passed all regulations, but did something that they regulations were trying to prevent.