The Boris Era

[Scouse]

Just read it. Can’t disagree with him tbh.

How about the new labour points I made? The guy is in Australia, sniping from the sidelines, part of a failed New Labour government. Why would what he says carry any weight any more?

He's yesterday's failure...

 

[Job]

Lol. That article got ratioed in the comments. Load of fact-free bollocks

Yes..an opinion.
But a positive one...it must hurt to hear it.

 

[Gwadien]

Stop blaming the Establishment for fighting dirty; it's what they do. The problem is Corbyn's supine response to the challenge. He's not a fighter, he's not an orator, and he's simply not communicating to the public what Labour's alternative to Boris and hard Brexit actually is, and even if Boris called a GE tomorrow I wouldn't expect that to change. Corbyn is an "empty uniform" (or in his case, dufflecoat) who doesnt have a clue about what it takes to win elections. The other problem is that he doesnt seem to be any more trustworthy than the Tories, it's just their style is outright lies whereas his is evasion and obfuscation.

Seriously; in any same universe Labour would be battering the Tories into the dust by now, and its entirely Corbyn's fault they're not.

You can't challenge the Establishment, that's been............................................................

Spoiler

established

You see it as the flaws of an individual, I see it as the flaws of policies and trying to get the Establishment to not hinder your campaigning.

As I said before, the Government has always been for the rich and always will be, there's a been a couple of lapses in this in the early 20th century where we got things like the NHS and the welfare state. Ever since there hasn't been a left leaning Government, purely because the Establishment doesn't one one, and they will do everything in their power to prevent one from happening, and using Brexit as the perfect tool of distraction.

I don't expect you to agree with me; after all you (and many others of this forum) would be the target of increased taxation.

The only Labour that would batter the Tories would be a Tory-lite Government, and what's the point in that?

 

[Wij]

How about the new labour points I made? The guy is in Australia, sniping from the sidelines, part of a failed New Labour government. Why would what he says carry any weight any more?

He's yesterday's failure...

Your ‘no true Scotsman’ argument about why Campbell and Blair aren’t real Labour is another thing that voters abhor.

 

[Scouse]

Your ‘no true Scotsman’ argument about why Campbell and Blair aren’t real Labour is another thing that voters abhor.

Don't follow you @Wij.

You're a lib dem voter, fine. But surely even you can see the abject failure of New Labour?

 

[DaGaffer]

Don't follow you @Wij.

You're a lib dem voter, fine. But surely even you can see the abject failure of New Labour?

No. Because New Labour got elected. Something every other flavour of "Labour" has failed to do since 1975.

Not that it matters because that's not the most important issue right now. If Labour grew a pair of balls and said "second referendum", they'd win, even if it was in coalition with the LibDems. Who cares if it's a "betrayal of Brexit", whatever the fuck that means, a strong leader could easily sell that the 50% who don't want to leave plus enough who've looked at the last three years and realised what a total fucking disaster Brexit under the utterly, utterly clueless Tories is going to be. Corbyn is not that strong, pragmatic leader, and he never will be

 

[Scouse]

No. Because New Labour got elected. Something every other flavour of "Labour" has failed to do since 1975.

I know they got elected - and the "first rule" of politics is to actually get elected. But you need an endpoint that's worth being elected for too.

They got elected and then failed. Yes, Corbyn's labour could be more "new labour" and increase their chances of being elected - but to what end if we already know the policies are the policies of failure? To. What. End?

No. Better to try for something, almost anything, different. Certainly something left-field because the politics of the last 40 years (and more) have resulted in a public that have voted for the clusterfuck that is Brexit.

And that's the point. Who cares if "traditional is electable" if we're just setting ourselves up to fail. Different may be better or worse - but at least it'd be different. And I'd rather have a 20% chance of trying something new than a 50% chance of trying something we've proved doesn't work.

 

[dysfunction]

You are talking in your ideals again and not what is available and what they can realistically be doing.

Lib dems are probably the only other real alternative but Labour do need to up their game.

They could hammering every single thing the Tories do wrong like placing so many scum bags back into the cabinet.

But no they just let it all slide as though nothing is wrong.

 

[Wij]

Don't follow you @Wij.

You're a lib dem voter, fine. But surely even you can see the abject failure of New Labour?

I know they got elected - and the "first rule" of politics is to actually get elected. But you need an endpoint that's worth being elected for too.

They got elected and then failed. Yes, Corbyn's labour could be more "new labour" and increase their chances of being elected - but to what end if we already know the policies are the policies of failure? To. What. End?

No. Better to try for something, almost anything, different. Certainly something left-field because the politics of the last 40 years (and more) have resulted in a public that have voted for the clusterfuck that is Brexit.

And that's the point. Who cares if "traditional is electable" if we're just setting ourselves up to fail. Different may be better or worse - but at least it'd be different. And I'd rather have a 20% chance of trying something new than a 50% chance of trying something we've proved doesn't work.

You are still missing the point. Corbyn isn't unelectable for his policies (except Brexit dithering when Labour voters generally are against it). He is unelectable because of his personal characteristics. He is not decisive. He is not inspiring. He is a ditherer. He is boring. He doesn't get detail. He doesn't listen to people. He doesn't understand the motivations of most of the population as he has lived in an information-bubble in StW and other cliques for decades.

The problem is not any policy (except one which I'll take off the table for now), it is the person.

 

[Scouse]

Fair point @Wij (though I'd say he was better than May. Boris, annoyingly, is much more charismatic).

However, there's nobody in Labour who'll take over without replacing policies with new-labour policies.

If we're electing on personality then it's a sad enditement of our shitty country - not of our politicians, btw. Leaders have to lead, yes, but we should at least be attempting to choose on intellect (and policy), not charisma.

 

[Wij]

Fair point @Wij (though I'd say he was better than May. Boris, annoyingly, is much more charismatic).

However, there's nobody in Labour who'll take over without replacing policies with new-labour policies.

If we're electing on personality then it's a sad enditement of our shitty country - not of our politicians, btw. Leaders have to lead, yes, but we should at least be attempting to choose on intellect (and policy), not charisma.

As I said. He has no leadership skills and is a rather dim bulb.

 

[Scouse]

As I said. He has no leadership skills and is a rather dim bulb.

Yep. I responded to that in my answer?

Labour policy is voted on by members - so it can't be lsid firmly at Corbyn's feet...

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Corbyn (who I dislike) appears to be letting anyone else deal with Brexit and then come in afterwards. I don't think that the Labour MPs are minded to sit back and watch a no deal Brexit happen though. My money is on a takeover bid by Watson, which I think will be supported by the MPs at least, not sure about the party.
I really can't believe they've all gone off on their summer holidays while the country is in this shit state.

 

[Scouse]

Corbyn (who I dislike) appears to be letting anyone else deal with Brexit and then come in afterwards.

Labour isn't in government...

 

[Gwadien]

'We don't want to spend anything on preventative measures, so we're going to introduce these kids to the Police early in their life, they're going to be write offs anyway without our intervention, so it'll probably be better if we just introduce them now.'

MPs call for police in schools to cut violence

What a joke.

I was at an all girls school before summer; there were all male police searching for knives on all the students, students responded like they should, WTF we're not fucking criminals, but let's behave like dickheads today.

 

[Scouse]

You saying that police overreach makes people act in ways they wouldn't ordinarily do @Gwadien?

I agree. Treat law-abiding people like criminals and they'll act in ways they wouldn't ordinarily. (kids and adults alike)

Treat criminals like criminals and there's no change, however.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Labour isn't in government...

No they are the Opposition, they are supposed to oppose, that's their job.
If he had balls they would by now be the Government.

 

[Gwadien]

You saying that police overreach makes people act in ways they wouldn't ordinarily do @Gwadien?

I agree. Treat law-abiding people like criminals and they'll act in ways they wouldn't ordinarily. (kids and adults alike)

Treat criminals like criminals and there's no change, however.

Kids are in school for an education, which is compulsory, which also on that day involved a compulsory search, so yes, that will have an adverse effect on their behaviour and make them more likely to rebel against the school, which they did.

People who make Youtube videos trying to *intentionally* trying to bait out the Police are not likely to become criminals.

People who make Youtube videos of an interaction where they've not put their selves in that situation, IE been pulled over by the Police or targeted for a stop & search, yes, that person is more likely to become a criminal.

 

[Ctuchik]

Kids are in school for an education, which is compulsory, which also on that day involved a compulsory search, so yes, that will have an adverse effect on their behaviour and make them more likely to rebel against the school, which they did.

Hang on hang on. The school kids rebelled against the school when the cops came and searched them for weapons?

 

[Gwadien]

Hang on hang on. The school kids rebelled against the school when the cops came and searched them for weapons?

Yes.

It's an extremely high performing all girls school, with pretty much flawless behaviour.

Not on that day.

It's natural, imagine if your boss rang up the Police to come into your place of work and searched everyone because he suspected someone had a knife/stole something.

 

[Wij]

View: https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1156484934091059200

 

[Wij]

Yep. I responded to that in my answer?

You said choose on intellect.

 

[Scouse]

No they are the Opposition, they are supposed to oppose, that's their job.
If he had balls they would by now be the Government.

How? We have fixed-term parliaments. They nearly got in at the last snap-election. They get into government via General elections, capiche?

 

[~Yuckfou~]

How? We have fixed-term parliaments. They nearly got in at the last snap-election. They get into government via General elections, capiche?

Unless of course there's confidence vote.
As for Brexit he's worn a hole in the arse of his trousers sitting on the fence.
He's had a mild hissy fit during the first BJ PMQs and said nothing else.
Nothing about the lies from BJ about Brexit, £350m a week, easiest deal ever, 1,000,000 to 1 chance of a no deal etc. He's said nothing about the very dubious appointments he's been making. Nothing about the obscene budget for advertising how good no deal will be (propaganda not information). All of this and so much more is ammunition that any sane politician would be using to totally discredit BJ and the Government.
If he took action the Government would be on it's knees by now and there would be a general election.
Not to mention all the previous ammunition he's had handed to him by TM.
He, and those that support him are unfit to rule the country. They should put Jess Phillips in charge, she'd wipe the floor with BJ.

Disclaimer: I've voted Conservative all my life, will never again. They have shown what a bunch of self serving cunts they are.

 

[Wij]

Unless of course there's confidence vote.
As for Brexit he's worn a hole in the arse of his trousers sitting on the fence.
He's had a mild hissy fit during the first BJ PMQs and said nothing else.
Nothing about the lies from BJ about Brexit, £350m a week, easiest deal ever, 1,000,000 to 1 chance of a no deal etc. He's said nothing about the very dubious appointments he's been making. Nothing about the obscene budget for advertising how good no deal will be (propaganda not information). All of this and so much more is ammunition that any sane politician would be using to totally discredit BJ and the Government.
If he took action the Government would be on it's knees by now and there would be a general election.
Not to mention all the previous ammunition he's had handed to him by TM.
He, and those that support him are unfit to rule the country. They should put Jess Phillips in charge, she'd wipe the floor with BJ.

Disclaimer: I've voted Conservative all my life, will never again. They have shown what a bunch of self serving cunts they are.

He's said fuck all about the fact that Vote Leave were found to have broken electoral law but the investigation by the police seems to have been kicked into the long grass and now Johnson has put most of Vote Leave into his cabinet and personal staff (e.g. Dominic Cummings).

So many open goals that a competent fucking opposition would have been hammering the tories on but Corbyn does fuck all. He is useless.

 

[brooky]

None of that matters right now. Having a position for the good of the nation is the right thing to do. There's a vast potential swing if Corbyn's not in charge. If he is, say hello to hard Brexit, penury and five years of Boris Johnson.

Keir Starmer ?

 

[Job]

Unless of course there's confidence vote.
As for Brexit he's worn a hole in the arse of his trousers sitting on the fence.
He's had a mild hissy fit during the first BJ PMQs and said nothing else.
Nothing about the lies from BJ about Brexit, £350m a week, easiest deal ever, 1,000,000 to 1 chance of a no deal etc. He's said nothing about the very dubious appointments he's been making. Nothing about the obscene budget for advertising how good no deal will be (propaganda not information). All of this and so much more is ammunition that any sane politician would be using to totally discredit BJ and the Government.
If he took action the Government would be on it's knees by now and there would be a general election.
Not to mention all the previous ammunition he's had handed to him by TM.
He, and those that support him are unfit to rule the country. They should put Jess Phillips in charge, she'd wipe the floor with BJ.

Disclaimer: I've voted Conservative all my life, will never again. They have shown what a bunch of self serving cunts they are.

I'd love to see a court case over the 350m for the NHS.
How much a week do we send the EU?
350m
Could that be spent on the NHS?
Yes m'lud.

Case dismissed

 

[Gwadien]

I'd love to see a court case over the 350m for the NHS.
How much a week do we send the EU?
350m
Could that be spent on the NHS?
Yes m'lud.

Case dismissed

It's not about court cases.

It's about politicians telling lies.

Something I thought would change with Trump/Boris, but obviously not.

 

[caLLous]

I'd love to see a court case over the 350m for the NHS.
How much a week do we send the EU?
350m
Could that be spent on the NHS?
Yes m'lud.

Case dismissed

You can't possibly be this thick. In the face of all the evidence you've seen since the referendum, you *still* think the UK contributes £350m a week?

 

[Wij]

I'd love to see a court case over the 350m for the NHS.
How much a week do we send the EU?
350m
Could that be spent on the NHS?
Yes m'lud.

Case dismissed

How much a week do we send the EU?
250m

Ah, guilty.