Football The 2020/2021 Season Thread

[Aoami]

If you say so.

I, and various sources, do say do yes. Why are you being so weird about this? Also, I think it's completely not on to call Gwadien a cunt just because he disagrees with you. How does that promote discord? Funny that you've accused everyone else of being like Job, when you're the only one here acting like him.

Guardiola labels VAR 'complete mess' after City beat Blades

The system has proved particularly controversial this weekend

www.independent.co.uk

Pep Guardiola’s Man City stars are getting ‘p****d’ off with VAR after derby woe, admits Rodri

RODRI reveals Manchester City’s stars are getting “p***ed off” with VAR. The champions came out on the wrong end of it again twice in the controversial Manchester derby. First, ref Anthony Taylor’s…

www.thesun.co.uk

Pep Guardiola says VAR decisions could do with ‘a little more consistency’

The Manchester City manager accepted the verdict that disallowed his side’s late goal against Tottenham but rued the unpredictable nature of judgments

www.theguardian.com

'Football going in wrong direction'

Tottenham boss Jose Mourinho fears football is going in the wrong direction after his side had a goal controversially ruled out by VAR in the 3-1 defeat at Sheffield United.

www.bbc.co.uk

Sheffield United boss Chris Wilder says VAR is ruining football's entertainment

Theres got to be a better way of sorting it out, says Wilder; Sheff Utd away to Liverpool on Thursday night

www.skysports.com

All of these articles, the managers are saying VAR is shit - but not that it should be scrapped - that it needs to be looked at.

 

[DaGaffer]

You're the one on the religious crusade about VAR lol, I don't think anyone else really cares that much (like the EU) but lets try to see if we can get it working, rather than chucking it out because some Liverpool players are upset

I think if you polled most fans they'd prefer it gone. It is really shite. I watched the Liverpool game the other day and with one exception (that didn't need VAR anyway) the decisions were horrific, and I fucking hate Liverpool .

 

[Gwadien]

I think if you polled most fans they'd prefer it gone. It is really shite. I watched the Liverpool game the other day and with one exception (that didn't need VAR anyway) the decisions were horrific, and I fucking hate Liverpool .

And again, if you polled most fans after England get knocked out of the World Cup due to a hand of god situation then they would all suddenly want it back.

 

[DaGaffer]

And again, if you polled most fans after England get knocked out of the World Cup due to a hand of god situation then they would all suddenly want it back.

So your one pro in favour of VAR is 36 years old? Anyway, if you polled fans on a random day when there wasn't a fucking world cup on, they'd say get rid. Pedant.

 

[Aoami]

And again, if you polled most fans after England get knocked out of the World Cup due to a hand of god situation then they would all suddenly want it back.

Yep. How many people were calling for tech when Lampards shot crossed the line 2010?

Tech is here to stay. There is too much money involved now for it not to be. Just needs to work better.

 

[Aoami]

So your one pro in favour of VAR is 36 years old? Anyway, if you polled fans on a random day when there wasn't a fucking world cup on, they'd say get rid. Pedant.

If you asked fans on a random day about any rule change that has gone on to make the game better, they'd probably say the same thing as well. Breaking News - People like the status quo.

See:

• Backpass Change.
• Foreign Player Restrictions.
• Offside change from 3 to 2 players.

 

[Gwadien]

So your one pro in favour of VAR is 36 years old? Anyway, if you polled fans on a random day when there wasn't a fucking world cup on, they'd say get rid. Pedant.

It was an example, there's been many examples of controversial decisions at big matches. Pedant

I'd like to see it changed, not removed, or kept as it is. I don't want to encourage a type of football that involves 'get in the box and fall over' as we saw so much of in the prem.

 

[Raven]

VAR should be a tool that the ref can call upon if he is not sure about something. They need to get rid of the review team that aren't even in the same city as the game, let alone stadium.

Then the offside rules need to be sorted, that one the other week (can't remember who it was) where his arm was offside was completely ridiculous.

If everything goes to VAR then there is little point having a ref on the pitch at all.

 

[Aoami]

VAR should be a tool that the ref can call upon if he is not sure about something. They need to get rid of the review team that aren't even in the same city as the game, let alone stadium.

Then the offside rules need to be sorted, that one the other week (can't remember who it was) where his arm was offside was completely ridiculous.

If everything goes to VAR then there is little point having a ref on the pitch at all.

Agree with this. This is more or less how it is used in American Football, and it's well respected in that sport.

 

[Scouse]

Tech is here to stay. There is too much money involved now for it not to be. Just needs to work better.

Fundamental change to the very basic principle of the most succesful game on the planet. Check.

Hasn't solved the 'problems' it said it would Check.

Fundamentally cannot solve one of the problems it introduces. Check.

"Money" is the excuse given.



Riiiight.

Jermaine Jenas replied to milners post about falling out of love. He said "the game is lost".

But he's only a pro, so whatever.

 

[Moriath]

I'm the one not engaging in the argument? You're the one who's calling everyone who doesn't agree with you an idiot and you want people to respond? lol.

Pretty standard hehe

 

[Aoami]

Fundamental change to the very basic principle of the most succesful game on the planet. Check.

Hasn't solved the 'problems' it said it would Check.

Fundamentally cannot solve one of the problems it introduces. Check.

"Money" is the excuse given.



Riiiight.

Jermaine Jenas replied to milners post about falling out of love. He said "the game is lost".

But he's only a pro, so whatever.

Again, ignoring my posts about the pro's always moaning about "Fundamental change to the very basic principle of the most succesful [sic] game on the planet", that eventually turn out to be for the betterment of the game. You just sound like a boring old man who thinks that anything new is bad.

VAR can be good for football, it just isn't at the moment. It really is as simple as that.

 

[Scouse]

Again, ignoring my posts about the pro's

At work. Will engage

 

[caLLous]

I think the review team is fine, I can only imagine the players would whine more at the ref if they felt like they could influence him into revisiting a decision that went against them.

If it was all up to the ref, it would also lead to more stoppages. At the moment, play can continue while checks are being made (potential penalties etc) and then, when the ball is next out of play, they can stop and scrutinise further if they need to otherwise "check complete" and you barely knew it was going on in the first place.

On top of all of that, the more prideful refs might not like the idea that it's up to them to double-check their own work and might feel inclined to let more slide because of it - or they might be absolutely adamant that they saw what they saw and couldn't possibly have made a "clear and obvious error".

A third party reviewing footage neatly sidesteps all of the above issues.

As far as I know, VAR checks the phase of play leading to a goal (or a ball that's in the net but was flagged offside or whatever), red card incidents and penalties. That's it.

Fix the rules, fix the implementation of those rules, make sure those operating it know what they're doing (eg Pickford should've been sent off the Van Dijk incident but the Dutchman was offside which apparently totally rules out dishing out punishment for a season-ending injury) and VAR will naturally get better. It's a system used to enforce a framework of rules and at the moment those rules and the way it's being used are a sack of wank.

 

[Raven]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86i69k6H16E&t=28s

 

[Raven]

His laugh absolutely kills me

 

[Scouse]

I, and various sources, do say do yes. Why are you being so weird about this? Also, I think it's completely not on to call Gwadien a cunt just because he disagrees with you. How does that promote discord? Funny that you've accused everyone else of being like Job, when you're the only one here acting like him.

Guardiola labels VAR 'complete mess' after City beat Blades

The system has proved particularly controversial this weekend

www.independent.co.uk

Pep Guardiola’s Man City stars are getting ‘p****d’ off with VAR after derby woe, admits Rodri

RODRI reveals Manchester City’s stars are getting “p***ed off” with VAR. The champions came out on the wrong end of it again twice in the controversial Manchester derby. First, ref Anthony Taylor’s…

www.thesun.co.uk

Pep Guardiola says VAR decisions could do with ‘a little more consistency’

The Manchester City manager accepted the verdict that disallowed his side’s late goal against Tottenham but rued the unpredictable nature of judgments

www.theguardian.com

'Football going in wrong direction'

Tottenham boss Jose Mourinho fears football is going in the wrong direction after his side had a goal controversially ruled out by VAR in the 3-1 defeat at Sheffield United.

www.bbc.co.uk

Sheffield United boss Chris Wilder says VAR is ruining football's entertainment

Theres got to be a better way of sorting it out, says Wilder; Sheff Utd away to Liverpool on Thursday night

www.skysports.com

All of these articles, the managers are saying VAR is shit - but not that it should be scrapped - that it needs to be looked at.

I just read all of your articles. I suspect you didn't (at least properly) to be fair Aoami - I think you google searched and quickly put it together. But I'm not being a shit about this - I'm very much posting seriously and taking your points into consideration.

All but one of your articles are from 2019 - much earlier in VARs life - and they do not say that it shouldn't be scrapped. In fact, the one from Mourhino (the only from 2020) is very clear:

"I never complain at the guy with the whistle because it's not the referee any more.

"I think the referee should always be the man on the pitch and the people in the office should just support and assist.

"That's not the way it is. The referee who is not very good on the pitch, we cannot expect that he's good in the office.

"We're going in a direction that's really bad for the beautiful game, the game that everybody fell in love with."

VAR fundamentally breaks that. It also fundamentally breaks immediacy (that is a problem that can never be solved - because it's it's ingrained in the very nature of all video review technologies). These are fundamental problems that cannot be fixed if you use video tech rather than trust the human - the system that has helped make football so exhilerating and captured all our imaginations.

Managers and players (and pundits) know this. (And it's clear in your articles from 2019 too - Chris Wilder is pretty damning in 2019 but stops short of suggesting scrapping). They have all been talking about it for a long time - not wanting to get in trouble with the authorities - but their patience is wearing thin and they're becoming much more overt in their criticism after playing under VAR for quite a long time now.

Mourhino's been very very clear. Klopp has been very clear (oh noes! liverpool!). Linekar was clear. Most of the players are clear - they preferred the old system. VAR changes the game in a subtle but incredibly important way.

And the players, the managers and the pundits agree.

Personally - I always saw that coming. VAR changes something fundamental. You cannot fix that by tweaking implementation. It's either you trust the ref and linesmen, or you don't. And if you don't, then you change the way the game is - and rob it of something that is very very special. And whilst you can discount me saying that - I don't think you can discount these luminaries saying it.



To take the argument further than the above - money is never a good reason to change the sport. But I still hold by my original analysis of the primary reason for it's introducition. There's money in VAR. Lots and lots of money. And the people who want this change stand to make a lot of money from it and give zero shits if the game suffers, or even if they lose a proportion of the game's fanbase over it - as long as the profit/cost equation works in their favour then they'll want to keep it.

VAR hasn't solved any of the problems it promised to solve. Controversy is front-and-centre with VAR. But rather than talking about people on the pitch we're now drawing fucking lines on a computer and waiting to find out whether a goal was actually a goal.


I was going to waffle on about immediacy. I've talked about it before - and I think it's utterly criminal that we've lost it. But I figured people'd go "fucking scouse" - so did a cursory google of my own to see if someone else is making that argument.

Sorry it's someone who is connected with liverpool. But like I said - if we look at this through a tribal lens then there's no point having the discussion in the first place. This is about the game as it applies to everybody. (Video gets bogged down in detail, rather than a continuation of the discussion of fundamental principles - and that's where the problem lies).


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CPgoMgWSDo

 

[Aoami]

I just read all of your articles. I suspect you didn't (at least properly) to be fair Aoami - I think you google searched and quickly put it together. But I'm not being a shit about this - I'm very much posting seriously and taking your points into consideration.

All but one of your articles are from 2019 - much earlier in VARs life - and they do not say that it shouldn't be scrapped. In fact, the one from Mourhino (the only from 2020) is very clear:

I did read them. None of them mention scrapping it. You highlighted the bits of Mourinho's quotes where it looks like he is pro-scrapping it, and left out the bit where he then qualifies his statements and explicitly states that refs in the office should be there to support & assist - so quite clearly suggesting that VAR in it's current iteration is not working, but that the refs need the support that it can offer.

VAR fundamentally breaks that. It also fundamentally breaks immediacy (that is a problem that can never be solved - because it's it's ingrained in the very nature of all video review technologies). These are fundamental problems that cannot be fixed if you use video tech rather than trust the human - the system that has helped make football so exhilerating and captured all our imaginations.

Managers and players (and pundits) know this. (And it's clear in your articles from 2019 too - Chris Wilder is pretty damning in 2019 but stops short of suggesting scrapping). They have all been talking about it for a long time - not wanting to get in trouble with the authorities - but their patience is wearing thin and they're becoming much more overt in their criticism after playing under VAR for quite a long time now.

Mourhino's been very very clear. Klopp has been very clear (oh noes! liverpool!). Linekar was clear. Most of the players are clear - they preferred the old system. VAR changes the game in a subtle but incredibly important way.

And the players, the managers and the pundits agree.

You're just lying at this point. This is no evidence of this. "Most of the players are clear" - nothing other than hyperbole.

Personally - I always saw that coming. VAR changes something fundamental. You cannot fix that by tweaking implementation. It's either you trust the ref and linesmen, or you don't. And if you don't, then you change the way the game is - and rob it of something that is very very special. And whilst you can discount me saying that - I don't think you can discount these luminaries saying it.


To take the argument further than the above - money is never a good reason to change the sport. But I still hold by my original analysis of the primary reason for it's introducition. There's money in VAR. Lots and lots of money. And the people who want this change stand to make a lot of money from it and give zero shits if the game suffers, or even if they lose a proportion of the game's fanbase over it - as long as the profit/cost equation works in their favour then they'll want to keep it.

VAR hasn't solved any of the problems it promised to solve. Controversy is front-and-centre with VAR. But rather than talking about people on the pitch we're now drawing fucking lines on a computer and waiting to find out whether a goal was actually a goal.

I was going to waffle on about immediacy. I've talked about it before - and I think it's utterly criminal that we've lost it. But I figured people'd go "fucking scouse" - so did a cursory google of my own to see if someone else is making that argument.

Sorry it's someone who is connected with liverpool. But like I said - if we look at this through a tribal lens then there's no point having the discussion in the first place. This is about the game as it applies to everybody. (Video gets bogged down in detail, rather than a continuation of the discussion of fundamental principles - and that's where the problem lies).


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CPgoMgWSDo

I agree that money is not a good reason to change the sport, but if you think this is all the fault of VAR, rather than clubs like City, Chelsea and Liverpool spending £200m a season because the TV money is there for them to do it, you are fucking deluded. Money has already changed the game beyond all recognition, VAR Is just the next logical step, because there is so much money riding on these split second decisions referees have to make. You think Klopp & Hendo, and more importantly the board (unfortunately so of course, but the reality of the situation) would be happy if they missed out on the champions league and the riches it brings because of a bad refereeing decision that VAR could easily have tipped in Liverpools favour?

You are clearly an idealist when it comes to football, which is fine, but those days are a long way behind us. Will football lose some diehards because of VAR? I honestly doubt it. Again, i cite various other changes that everyone was up in arms about, that turned out to do nothing but benefit the sport in the end. VAR has a long way to go, but i remain positive that it will work itself out.

 

[Scouse]

You're just lying at this point.

Time to tap out if that's how you feel.

But immediacy is unsolveable with video tech. Unsolveable. Period.

 

[Aoami]

Because you have absolutely no evidence to back up your claims that "most of the players" feel that way lol.

 

[caLLous]

Arteta hates VAR so much, he moaned about it not being available in the Europa League group stages.

Arteta infuriated by lack of VAR in Europa League as Arsenal denied goal | Goal.com

Arsenal manager Mikel Arteta says he "doesn't understand" why Video Assistant Referees are not used in the Europa League after his side were denied what looked like a legal goal against Molde on Thursday evening.

www.goal.com

 

[Scouse]

Arteta hates VAR so much, he moaned about it not being available in the Europa League group stages.

Never said it was unanimous.

There was clamour for it (stoked by the people with money who stand to profit) long before. We know why we have VAR. This is clearly about what we've lost, for what gain exactly?

 

[Scouse]

Because you have absolutely no evidence to back up your claims that "most of the players" feel that way lol.

Like Murphy said - give the season ticket holders and players a vote.

Professional footballer, right there, saying he's spoken to his peers at length and they say scrap it (in private).

But yes - I'd love there to be an anonymous vote from the people who play the game. It won't happen though, because the people who make the decisions stand to make money.

 

[Aoami]

Never said it was unanimous.

Statement on VAR and substitute players

Shareholders unanimously approve the implementation of VAR for 2020/21, while the clubs agree to revert to three substitutions per match

www.premierleague.com

"Shareholders unanimously approve the implementation of VAR for 2020/21"

 

[Scouse]

Eight game ban for use of the term negrito, no?

 

[Scouse]

Statement on VAR and substitute players

Shareholders unanimously approve the implementation of VAR for 2020/21, while the clubs agree to revert to three substitutions per match

www.premierleague.com

"Shareholders unanimously approve the implementation of VAR for 2020/21"

Well of-bloody-course? Relevance?

Do you understand why that doesn't apply to our discussion?

 

[Aoami]

i do, i was just trying to wind you up

 

[Aoami]

Eight game ban for use of the term negrito, no?

i hope so, so the united team can all get t-shirts made up

 

[Moriath]

Eight game ban for use of the term negrito, no?

Depends. I mean its one word and i dont believe he ment it in Malice.
i would have to know more about Uruguay to know if its acceptable and its context to judge. I think different cultures have to take account for each other.

 

[Scouse]

Depends. I mean its one word and i dont believe he ment it in Malice.
i would have to know more about Uruguay to know if its acceptable and its context to judge. I think different cultures have to take account for each other.

How very reasonable of you

That's what Suarez said. But they gave him an eight game ban anyway.