Spiritmaster Pet - Intercept.. Some testing

[Tuorin]

got news for you m8 Warden need to be deleted from the game ore just give grappel timer to make them useless well all pry wardens would be useless then GAH!

:touch:

No problem at having grapple timer, just dont let zerkers hit you for 500 a round at 1.5s speed. Make that 65 and you can have grapple!

 

[Belomar]

Not everyone qqs and nice to see that we have some discerning posters from all realms!!!

Indeed. I've played all three realms in high-level RvR now, and the balance between them is overall quite close (that is not to say that the realms are balanced, just that they are for "gank group warfare"). In my opinion, Midgard has a tiny edge mainly due to the quality of their support, but this is negligible. (Still need to perfect our performance in Hib, but I guess/hope that will come. )

In regards to this topic, currently it seems to me that Midgard has the two best casters overall out of all three realms: BDs and Dark SMs. Those two classes are incidentally the only really "viable" classes in the upcoming tank patches.

EDIT: And yes, eek @ trying to keep a MA:d Warden who has pissed off some light tanks alive, give phaseshift to Wardens!

 

[Puppet]

Indeed. I've played all three realms in high-level RvR now, and the balance between them is overall quite close (that is not to say that the realms are balanced, just that they are for "gank group warfare"). In my opinion, Midgard has a tiny edge mainly due to the quality of their support, but this is negligible. (Still need to perfect our performance in Hib, but I guess/hope that will come. )

In regards to this topic, currently it seems to me that Midgard has the two best casters overall out of all three realms: BDs and Dark SMs. Those two classes are incidentally the only really "viable" classes in the upcoming tank patches.

EDIT: And yes, eek @ trying to keep a MA:d Warden who has pissed off some light tanks alive, give phaseshift to Wardens!

Basically:

Best support (as you say)
Best casters (per next patch - already now tho from my PoV)
Best tanks (due to Celerity)

Add it up: "Neglible edge for Midgard". Somehow if I add it up its not neglible, especially not when you take in simple things like Celerity which adds a frigging lot of dps to tanks and the fact both BD/SM can deliver dps (sometimes) even when other casters would been long interrupted. Also lifetap/healing-pets lower the healing-load on Healers/Shaman by quite abit aswell, even more skewing the odds (this goes for Albion aswell btw, caba/sorc LT)

 

[Konstantin]

No problem at having grapple timer, just dont let zerkers hit you for 500 a round at 1.5s speed. Make that 65 and you can have grapple!

QQ ?!xD Bms hit harder anyway XXcali needs to be nerfed tbh

 

[Xxcalibur]

QQ ?!xD Bms hit harder anyway XXcali needs to be nerfed tbh

just i am using the slowest weap in this game for a light tank

 

[charmangle]

You are still missing the main point...

Basically:

Best support (as you say)
Best casters (per next patch - already now tho from my PoV)
Best tanks (due to Celerity)

Add it up: "Neglible edge for Midgard". Somehow if I add it up its not neglible, especially not when you take in simple things like Celerity which adds a frigging lot of dps to tanks and the fact both BD/SM can deliver dps (sometimes) even when other casters would been long interrupted. Also lifetap/healing-pets lower the healing-load on Healers/Shaman by quite abit aswell, even more skewing the odds (this goes for Albion aswell btw, caba/sorc LT)

You are still missing the main point and the overall picture. Midgard has a SLIGHT edge in group vs group. but most of it is negated by the bgs etc in hib.

Hib has HUUUUUGE advantage in all other situations. Which basically isnt negated by anything. Serg vs serg, tower, keep, solo vs solo basically all other instances of rvr than the fg vs fg. (Where it comes pretty close and the albs are in my opinion those who should complain here not hibs)

First of all you need to fix the HUGE differences in the big picture then turn your attention for the minor parts of the smaller picture. So with the risk of repeating myself, take a good hard look at 1. Banshees, 2. Shrooms 3. Baselinestun 4. SM pets, 5. Scouts/rangers range/damage, 6. any other thing you might find. In THAT order.

/Charmangle

 

[Tuorin]

EDIT: And yes, eek @ trying to keep a MA:d Warden who has pissed off some light tanks alive, give phaseshift to Wardens!

Currently the mood amongst probably most of the warden community on Pryd is that we dont want to play our wardens. Eclipse have 3 active wardens (not including Furb!!) with over 22million RPs and none of us want to play it. Quite simply we can perfect bg but die in a blink to 2 zerkers and 1 cast from sm. I have aom3, eirines, 750-800af 20+20parry, 29% slash. Also sometimes use ablative charge from girdle of thunder and battler abs.

A case in point was I perfect bged entire group including tanks vs a strong mid tank orientated group on Weds and I was the only one to die bging.

In the end, I know how much better a hero is than a warden as a bg as I play that and 600more hp, 50 shield, moose, som, sb3, tictacs, dashing defence and ip inc. So quite funny when i read a post about wardens being a bg without shield spec. A pally is a zillion times better bg than a warden. A warden offers the group utility/buffs/resists/heals, but its useless if enemy can breathe on it and it dies. Factor in being a BG negates 10% of your skills, then your parry is not much use and useless vs the second attacker. In the end half of the grappling is to save one dude hitting you.

Having said that we can get round some of those things by utilising different styles of play, interupt duty etc and hero bging. Getting both hero and warden atm is priceless though! Run a 3rd caster too at times. Problem then remains, 2 druids, bard, 3 casters, bl tank and.... warden for resists. We can also change specs and ra's a little to get more defense.


All that being said, its not just the intercept of the pet thats the problem its the fact that the pet is nigh unkillable as a semi BG. Factor into equation bof3 and sb3 and di2-3 on group and even 60% going through isnt going to kill sm.

The det patch will probably work slightly in favour of Hibs vs Mids tbh. Sure more tanks going mad, but generally think the improved negation of cc will help Hibs and possibly Albs a bit more than now at the highest end of rvr.

 

[noaim]

It does, mezzed SM pet various times to only break mezz on it a combat-round later.

It does not intercept when mezzed. It is however overpowered, unless you deal with it in a proper way, like cc it or nuke it down etc.

Its not like a ml9 cabby-pet with rr5 on it, chasing a healer, is balanced either if you dont nuke the pet down.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

I want a pet :< Something like Summon Smellysox would be nice.

Just say the words "Catherine" or "Doggy c6" i find is a good instasummon smelly RA.

 

[Cadelin]

I must say I was VERY impressed with Puppet's excellent tests.

Firstly you choose the STANDARD sm rvr spec which is of course summoning.
Secondly you picked the two most obvious classes to melee down an sm, a shaman and an unbuffed zerker. Once you have the result you are looking for you then decide that this is actually happening in rvr.

I did a similar test earlier. I rolled a lvl 1 char and tried to solo GoLM. I died . I then took a thid alt and tried to solo it again but died . 23 levels difference and there was no difference in the speed I died, I doubt that a lvl 45 person would be able to manage this encounter..........

 

[gwal]

It does not intercept when mezzed. It is however overpowered, unless you deal with it in a proper way, like cc it or nuke it down etc.

Its not like a ml9 cabby-pet with rr5 on it, chasing a healer, is balanced either if you dont nuke the pet down.

difference being u dont HAVE to nuke the cabby or deal with the pet, as u can melee down the cabby.

 

[gwal]

I fail to remember having talked about pre-nerf zerkers/savages in this thread. I used the necro as an example to show differences, still the same. That the necro pet system makes the class very hard to play due to the bugs is a matter for Mythic to fix. Something they actually have been working on in later patches.


Pre-nerf zerkers LA was apparently bugged due to a coder misunderstanding the growth rate system. So they put that back in place. Why are you talking about that?

u compared it to a crap necro, i compare it to something that shows how their mistakes can clearly affect rvr in an unreasonable way. doesnt rly matter why its like that, problem is it IS like that.
i also compare it to pre nerf tanks cause u say its not overpowered if it can be delt with, which they could (and can), yet still they were clearly unbalanced.

 

[Dorin]

Firstly you choose the STANDARD sm rvr spec which is of course summoning.
Secondly you picked the two most obvious classes to melee down an sm, a shaman and an unbuffed zerker. Once you have the result you are looking for you then decide that this is actually happening in rvr.

this kinda classifies you as an idiot

think it through and you will see why? :|

 

[noaim]

difference being u dont HAVE to nuke the cabby or deal with the pet, as u can melee down the cabby.

You dont HAVE to nuke the sm-pet either, as you can nuke down the sm, or interrupt the sm, etc. But instead of improving your play or the grps play, it is ofc alot easier to come here and whine about it, so keep doing that instead.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

I think puppet was actually trying to be helpful here as opposed to jumping on the nerf bat bandwagon? Methinks conduct your own tests before you bitch too much at his...

 

[Edlina]

You dont HAVE to nuke the sm-pet either, as you can nuke down the sm, or interrupt the sm, etc. But instead of improving your play or the grps play, it is ofc alot easier to come here and whine about it, so keep doing that instead.

Can't you see the obvious difference? the cabalist CAN be meleed down, the SM can't, simple as that. You can do all the above mentioned thing on the cabalist too, and kill him in melee, like all other casters, except SM.

 

[gwal]

You dont HAVE to nuke the sm-pet either, as you can nuke down the sm, or interrupt the sm, etc. But instead of improving your play or the grps play, it is ofc alot easier to come here and whine about it, so keep doing that instead.

what kinda drugs are u on?

u dont have to deal with the cabby ranged cause u can melee him, like any other caster.. except the sm, who u have to deal with ranged due to the pet.

doesnt seem so hard to understand, but just keep acting like a l33t prick and miss the entire point of the thread

 

[noaim]

what kinda drugs are u on?

u dont have to deal with the cabby ranged cause u can melee him, like any other caster.. except the sm, who u have to deal with ranged due to the pet.

doesnt seem so hard to understand, but just keep acting like a l33t prick and miss the entire point of the thread

A typical albsetup has 2 bg´s? Should be able to keep cabby up vs melee pretty good, and you still have to kill the pet with nukes if they rr5 it and send it on a healer, same as you have to cc or nuke the sm pet if you wanna reliably kill the sm with tanks. Doesnt seem so hard to understand?

And yes, as I said in my first post, it is overpowered, if you dont help the tanks with it, but you make it sound as if the second the sm casts a pet, there is NOTHING you can do about it, sm is meleeimmune and you cant change it.

 

[Puppet]

A typical albsetup has 2 bg´s? Should be able to keep cabby up vs melee pretty good, and you still have to kill the pet with nukes if they rr5 it and send it on a healer, same as you have to cc or nuke the sm pet if you wanna reliably kill the sm with tanks. Doesnt seem so hard to understand?

And there you got the point: Every caster needs BG, including the cabalist. The Spiritmaster has his own BG pretty much, or atleast enough pet-intercepts for a BG to make it to the SM (or the other way around).

YOU are the one who doesnt WANT to understand the difference. The SM is pretty much a caster-with-a-BG-in-his-pet. Damn your signature even says it.

And yes, as I said in my first post, it is overpowered, if you dont help the tanks with it, but you make it sound as if the second the sm casts a pet, there is NOTHING you can do about it, but there is.

Ofcourse there is. Its just plain silly that your solution forces into a different direction then any other caster. That is what making the case of the SM so different compared to other casters.

Defending the outrageous intercept-rate on the SM is quite funny, and as I said before its something Ive seen alot of people do in a similar way with savages, warlocks and berserkers.

History repeats itselves, we all know that by now.

 

[noaim]

And there you got the point: Every caster needs BG, including the cabalist. The Spiritmaster has his own BG pretty much, or atleast enough pet-intercepts for a BG to make it to the SM (or the other way around).

YOU are the one who doesnt WANT to understand the difference. The SM is pretty much a caster-with-a-BG-in-his-pet. Damn your signature even says it.

Ofc I see the difference, all I am saying is that the sm is only melee immune if you dont do anything about the pet, and you have many ways to deal with it, mezz, root (if sm sends it away) or kill it, petfear from warlord etc.
It takes 3-4 nukes to kill it btw, so it doesnt take that long.

And sm needs bg aswell, just that if lucky, it can live longer without it, but try your test with multiple attackers and see the result.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Its quite simple - if you do not have nukes/instas you are dead once the SM pet loses cc in whatever form it has it.

Any half competent SM can and WILL take you down 95% of the time if youre a pure meleer.

Edit - if they cant or dont with 2 forms of CC (and remember they can outrun a det tank with the caster speed the way it is atm), they need to reroll.

 

[Digi]

Its quite simple - if you do not have nukes/instas you are dead once the SM pet loses cc in whatever form it has it.

Any half competent SM can and WILL take you down 95% of the time if youre a pure meleer.

Edit - if they cant or dont with 2 forms of CC (and remember they can outrun a det tank with the caster speed the way it is atm), they need to reroll.

You saying that sm have Self speed or something?

 

[Megarevs]

Its quite simple - if you do not have nukes/instas you are dead once the SM pet loses cc in whatever form it has it.

Any half competent SM can and WILL take you down 95% of the time if youre a pure meleer.

Edit - if they cant or dont with 2 forms of CC (and remember they can outrun a det tank with the caster speed the way it is atm), they need to reroll.

Shows howmuch you know about sm's...

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Shows howmuch you know about sm's...

No im saying they can use their various forms of cc if theyre smart + start kiteing once it gets hairy.

Believe it or not i did play one for a bit (bgs only mind). Like that counts.

Post came across wrong as trying to do too many things at once.

 

[Puppet]

Ofc I see the difference, all I am saying is that the sm is only melee immune if you dont do anything about the pet, and you have many ways to deal with it, mezz, root (if sm sends it away) or kill it, petfear from warlord etc.

If you root it, any capable SM will hug his pet, obviously. 1 intercept will set the root off the pet.

And sm needs bg aswell, just that if lucky, it can live longer without it, but try your test with multiple attackers and see the result.

Oh - well unfortunaly that cant be tested in a duel, but Ive seen this happen quite alot in normal RvR. It aint coincidence the pet often dies BEFORE the Spiritmaster, even with a buffed pet. Says something, doesnt it.

Still, in the end 1 tank can quite easily dispose of any non-BG'ed caster, except a Bonedancer, a Warlock or a Spiritmaster. Reading your signature you're the one playing Midgard heavily. Well there's the 3 casters you see quite abit in RvR, rarely see Runies. You know why? Coz they're balanced compared to Hib/Alb-casters, but suck compared to the other Mid-casters.

 

[Dorin]

It takes 3-4 nukes to kill it btw, so it doesnt take that long.

yeah its kinda hard with a competent sm or banelord bd in enemy grp though.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

If you root it, any capable SM will hug his pet, obviously. 1 intercept will set the root off the pet.



Oh - well unfortunaly that cant be tested in a duel, but Ive seen this happen quite alot in normal RvR. It aint coincidence the pet often dies BEFORE the Spiritmaster, even with a buffed pet. Says something, doesnt it.

Still, in the end 1 tank can quite easily dispose of any non-BG'ed caster, except a Bonedancer, a Warlock or a Spiritmaster. Reading your signature you're the one playing Midgard heavily. Well there's the 3 casters you see quite abit in RvR, rarely see Runies. You know why? Coz they're balanced compared to Hib/Alb-casters, but suck compared to the other Mid-casters.

At least i get a chance to get out of range with an SM...warlocks if youre in range you take the full damage always unless hes a total tard.

Oh and puppet before anyone tries to add sorc to that list its their RAs or MLs that give them that survivability NOT a free autobging pet.

Theres some good logs on the vns if they havent been deleted by now, about SM pet bg - posted not long after ToA i think. Guy did like 200 attacks in a variety of circumstances - pet buffed, unbuffed, 2 attackers, 1 attacker, pet + attacker, blah.

Your results looked about right from what i remember though.

 

[Kanim]

Currently the mood amongst probably most of the warden community on Pryd is that we dont want to play our wardens. Eclipse have 3 active wardens (not including Furb!!) with over 22million RPs and none of us want to play it. Quite simply we can perfect bg but die in a blink to 2 zerkers and 1 cast from sm. I have aom3, eirines, 750-800af 20+20parry, 29% slash. Also sometimes use ablative charge from girdle of thunder and battler abs.

well eirenes proc only works against magic dmg, the charge is bugged (on mid atleast) and only gives 20% melee immunity. Compared to winged helm + malice charges battler is pretty worthless imo since its common practice to battler debuff the warden (which puts you back on 27(?) abs) for a quick kill then rape the caster . With winged helm, malice arrogance and bof3 up on my shaman i've seen tanks hit for around 40 dmg mh (hi draxa xD), there's no reason why you can't do this on a warden tbh and if I ever get around to playing mine again I won't be playing it without a lvl 10 malice and winged helm.

 

[Cadelin]

this kinda classifies you as an idiot

think it through and you will see why? :|

I thought I was being sarcastic enough for even idiots like yourself to see.

 

[Dorin]

I thought I was being sarcastic enough for even idiots like yourself to see.

yea after turning out to be an idiot you did, faking it as sarcasm is a nice out of jail card, so grats to that

following your logic... mmm i was trying to be funny?