Politics So...Europe then?

[Raven]

Butthurt? How so? Why, whenever challenged, do you just revert to claiming the other party is angry, or just go on a facepalm machine gun spree.

I would say you are the one angry here

Like most people in the UK, us leaving the EU will provide exactly 1 problem, it will take 10 minutes longer at check in.

The rich will still bone everyone, the tax avoiders will still avoid as much tax as legally possible, one or two might pretend to have a problem with tax avoidance too, the particularly logically challenged.

 

[Scouse]

Enjoy-joy your facepalm

 

[Raven]

It makes me gooey knowing you are incapable of anything else

 

[Scouse]

 

[DaGaffer]

Yes of course..no one wants to trade with the fifth largest and 2nd fastest growing economy in the G7.

The EU is about to lose its most important country and is doing it...publically at least..in a way that reminds everyone why we are leaving.

Do you know how many trade deals the EU has with G7 members? One. With Canada (four years to negotiate). They are in the 18th round of trade talks with Japan since 2012 and still no agreement, and TTIP is dead with the US. What do you notice about that? The deals they have or want have all taken a shitload longer than two years and are a tiny fraction of the complexity of the relationship with the UK (except maybe TTIP) and don't carry the ideological baggage of Brexit.

And as for "doing it...publically at least..in a way that reminds everyone why we are leaving"; so? You're leaving anyway so your opinion doesn't matter to the EU. The opinion of Europeans is obviously going to be to get the best deal possible for Europeans. Even without the mess of Brexit that would be the case.

 

[Job]

The best deal for the EU members is a deal that keeps the UK prosperous ..or maybe youre suggesting they should try and greek us.
We are leaving a trading bloc ( protection zone)..not declaring financial war.
What is the fucking point of these trade agreements if everyone cant be in them...what do they offer that cant be offered anyway...are they a loyalty card?
Why does trade cost more if youre not in it...tarrifs..customs?
Is it like fastboard at the airport.
How can globalisation mix with protected trading areas?

I can obviously see the EUs predicament..but this is something at the core of their reason to exist...they cant let the UK have free trade without paying in...but they cant impose costs because it will harm them.
The other countries will start to ask what they are paying for, these talks will rip open the EUs fundamental position in the world economy..they have everything to lose as the stones get turned over.

 

[Scouse]

In your own post you answered why it's in the EU's interests to fuck us over.

 

[Bodhi]

That's not how these discussions go down Gaff. You'll be asked to justify every reasoned argument you make whilst they won't provide a reasoned argument of their own of why they think it's going to go down their way - rather they'll make glib witticisms like "good job we left then eh?" and somesuch unpolished turds.

(Probably because they don't have one, but hey ho)

Ah treating people like idiots with a side dish of condescension - always a cracking way to get people to change their minds. I mean I'm totally convinced - is it too late to change my vote?

 

[Scouse]

Ah treating people like idiots with a side dish of condescension

Just what you three do. You don't offer up a decent rational reason why it's all going to be fine. You just trash the myriad reasons why it isn't without counter-argument. Proper fingers-in-ears style.

Gaff posed an obvious question. Nobody tried to answer it. Nobody.

So what you do is act all butthurt when I point that out and use that as another excuse not to engage - because deep down you know that if you do engage your arguments aren't based on logic, but raw emotion.

At least the markets are more rational, pricing in a 15% devaluation of the UK long ago.

 

[Bodhi]

The rest of the EU is more important economically and politically to Germany, and especially France, than the UK is. Simple fact. Anything they do that gives the impression to other EU members that the UK is getting a better deal out than in, is more risky for France and Germany (who both have 40%+ exports to other EU members not including the UK), especially Eurozone members, who the Germans own. Damage limitation for them is making sure no one else gets ideas about fucking off. Now, Marine Le Pen could get in to power next week and the whole thing falls apart, but right now, if Macron wins, the French and Germans (the Germans love Macron) will present a united front against the UK.

I don't know why I'm bothering to post but I tell you what @Raven, @Bodhi, @Job, what if I'm right? What's the UK's Plan B for a WTO EU relationship, no trade deals with other countries (because they won't have any within two years because other countries will be waiting to see what they're actually going to be trading with). Obviously they'll tell everyone to tighten their belts and "pull together as a nation", but do you honestly think they have an actual workable plan on the evidence of what seen so far for Plan A?

I'll let you know when we've actually seen some of Plan A, so far all we've had is some posturing and a few leaks from the Brussels side of negotiations. But as far as the negotiations so far go my main concern is the EU playing us with a striaght bat, which with what we've seen so far (leaks, throwaway comments about Ireland etc) I'm not entirely sure we'll get. I don't have a problem with the EU's position (as that's all it is currently, a position) - some of the ways they have gone about it so far, not so much.

Some of it has been incredibly amateurish so far though, and I don't just mean David Davis. So Juncker thinks May's team are poor negotiators - from experience if you think someone on the other side is a poor negotiator, the last thing you do is tell them, as then they can do something about it.

But if we end up on WTO tarriffs? So be it. If it's that or being tied to a massive dysfunctional bureaucracy that has spent the past 5 years appearing close to collapse, I'll take WTO thanks.

 

[Bodhi]

Just what you three do. You don't offer up a decent rational reason why it's all going to be fine. You just trash the myriad reasons why it isn't without counter-argument. Proper fingers-in-ears style.

Gaff posed an obvious question. Nobody tried to answer it. Nobody.

So what you do is act all butthurt when I point that out and use that as another excuse not to engage - because deep down you know that if you do engage your arguments aren't based on logic, but raw emotion.

At least the markets are more rational, pricing in a 15% devaluation of the UK long ago.

That's an incredibly verbose way of suggesting that your're rubber, I'm glue.

As for the markets:

EUR/GBP drops further as euro declines across the board

So currency strengthening, PMI outlook for the UK outstripping the Eurozone, looks terrible!

 

[Job]

In your own post you answered why it's in the EU's interests to fuck us over.

And you ignored my point that they cant do that with trade barriers.
That will hurt them more than us and send the worst possible message to the rest of the world.
'Look at the EU..whod trade with those vindictive fuckers'.

 

[Job]

Stephan Mayer, the Christian Democrat Union’s home affairs spokesman, insisted both the European Unionand United Kingdom should be conducting the negotiations “confidentially and not in public”.

Radio 4 interview

 

[Hawkwind]

Cool. Just shows we were right to leave then.

Also interesting that the peace loving EU have brought up the subject of reuniting Ireland. Which isn't going to kick the troubles off again in any way shape or form....

Maybe we can talk about given half of Spain back to Arabs then as well Quite ridiculous how petty this whole thing is becoming. Hate to say it but Farage may have been right, well almost right, for the first time ever when he talked about UK hostage analogy.

 

[Job]

Surprise not....

Majority of men in Middle East survey believe a woman's place is in the home

 

[Raven]

They aren't wrong though...

 

[Bodhi]

Maybe we can talk about given half of Spain back to Arabs then as well Quite ridiculous how petty this whole thing is becoming. Hate to say it but Farage may have been right, well almost right, for the first time ever when he talked about UK hostage analogy.

As long as they keep their stinking foreign hands off our rock

It is sad how petty it's getting, and it strikes me that it could all be easily avoided if, rather than talk of punishment, the EU was pushing for us to remain part of the EEA and EFTA, at least as a transition.

Put that to a referendum in the UK and it would win by a landslide and we could all get on with laughing at Dianne Abbott.

 

[Hawkwind]

Surprise not....

Majority of men in Middle East survey believe a woman's place is in the home

So, If I have a son and daughter aged 18 and finished their higher education (in UAE) I can no longer obtain a VISA for the son. The daughter can get a VISA for life, but the son loses that right at 18 and has to leave. The attitude will change over time but just like Victorian England it will take a while longer yet. For all the bluster of outwardly being a patriarchal setup, family wise it is the women that rule.

 

[DaGaffer]

As long as they keep their stinking foreign hands off our rock

It is sad how petty it's getting, and it strikes me that it could all be easily avoided if, rather than talk of punishment, the EU was pushing for us to remain part of the EEA and EFTA, at least as a transition.

Put that to a referendum in the UK and it would win by a landslide and we could all get on with laughing at Dianne Abbott.

The EFTA option is entirely within UKGov's gift, but they've said "no freedom of movement" (even though that wasn't a referendum question) so its off the table. That's not an EU decision, its a British one.

 

[Gwadien]

Tis all political posturing, it's all it's ever been, problem is you can't bitch about it, you can only accept it.

At the end of the day the EU is a much bigger military, political and economic power than the UK. The victors write the history, why would the EU defend non-EU countries over issues like Ireland and Gibraltar, there is literally no reason for them to do so. Would they take action if the UK said 'okay try it, we'll send some tridents 'round'? probably not. Would the UK back down before the EU does? Yeah, I'd say probably.

 

[Job]

That's like saying the world is bigger than the States.
If the EU in any way acted as single entity, but it doesn't, it's fragmented, on the verge of political and economic collapse at every moment, it has no army, diminishing economic clout and the only time I have ever seen it organise anything in less than 3 months is when they voted about us.
So at least we are pulling them together a little bit...as I have said before, us 'leaving' is the best thing to happen to the EU in decades.

 

[Bodhi]

The EFTA option is entirely within UKGov's gift, but they've said "no freedom of movement" (even though that wasn't a referendum question) so its off the table. That's not an EU decision, its a British one.

First rule of negotiation - ask for more than you think you are going to get. EEA/EFTA is exactly where I suspect we will end up, in the short term at least.

 

[Raven]

Why are French politicians so fucking tiny?!

 

[Scouse]

EFTA is exactly where I suspect we will end up

Not without freedom of movement, at least in all but name.

 

[dysfunction]

What I don't really get is yes we have voted Brexit. Fine. But why take an offensive position? We didn't vote for any specific Brexit. Is UK.Gov scared of UKIP?? Is this whole thing about immigration?
Why is it necessary to go for broke rather than just make alliances with Europe?

 

[Scouse]

More good news!

 

[Raven]

What I don't really get is yes we have voted Brexit. Fine. But why take an offensive position? We didn't vote for any specific Brexit. Is UK.Gov scared of UKIP?? Is this whole thing about immigration?
Why is it necessary to go for broke rather than just make alliances with Europe?

Actually, the vast majority of aggression is coming from the unelected muppets at the EU. We are treating twats as twats, which is as it should be. The EU, pretty much straight off the bat, have started attempting to bully us, showing their true colours and absolutely why we need rid of it ASAP.

We haven't made any demands yet, we are saving them for the negotiation table, not the tabloids. Completely unprofessional by the EU, as one would expect. I guess when you fill your leadership with failed domestic politicians and people guilty of encouraging tax fraud then you just aren't going to get much else.

 

[Job]

I'd like to point out we are not the country having political election debates with the centre right against practically the nazi party.
Whos to blame for situation in France..the EU of course...Greece..the EU of course..brexit...the EU of course...Putin and Ukraine..the EU of course...Turkey...the EU yet again.

 

[dysfunction]

You forgot that the EU is to blame for North Korea too!

 

[Job]

As anyone considered how fucked up it is that we owe 85 billion to the EU...this level of debt was kept pretty quiet and how many other countries have these astronomical debts to the EU...makes a mockery of getting back what we pay in...seems the official figure doesnt include frickin billions for all kinds of projects ...almost undoubtedly for EU expansionism.
If 27 countries owe even a third of what we owe...holy shit.