Politics So...Europe then?

[TdC]

actually Jobbacon, I accuse you of heavly implying migration and refugees are an invasion. you're far too careful to actually say such a thing out loud. whatever it is you're thinking is anyone's guess.

 

[Raven]

The chap who will be delivering me a delicious Chinese later will most likely be a filthy migrant. I will give him £2 for his work ethic.

 

[Scouse]

850,000 in 2014, quite a lot by any standards.

850 thousand polish people residing in a country of 65 million.

No. It's not a lot. Not a lot at all. Are you particularly bothered because they're better and cheaper plumbers than you?

 

[Ormorof]

I was merely pointing out that Polish are by far the biggest amount.
850,000 in 2014, quite a lot by any standards.

850,000 out of 65,000,000 is ~1.3% of the population

In Germany it is around 3.5% (2.8 million)

So yes theres lot of Poles outside of Poland but they are spread out quite nicely across Europe and the US

 

[Moriath]

Lots of irish everywhere too. Not bothered by any of them being here

 

[Job]

So even Junckers thinks we are in the driving seat.

Juncker fears Britain could divide European Union

 

[Raven]

The man is out of his depth, he should stick to creating back door tax loopholes in Luxembourg.

 

[Job]

Kinda gave the game away there really.
Not sure what level of brinkmanship that was, is he warning Europe?.
Letting us know he knows our game?
Trying to turn them against us?
Or maybes he off and doesn't give a fuck.
I think of the times they've laughed, slow clapped and ridiculed Farage...and now it's come to this.

 

[Scouse]

So even Junckers thinks we are in the driving seat.

Juncker fears Britain could divide European Union

What do you mean by "driving seat"?

It looks like he fears Britain sowing disunity in Europe. So, unless you think disunity is a good thing (really?) then that's something sensible to fear.

As Brits we all want the best deal possible for our economy, our businesses and all the related stuff - employment safeguards, environmental laws etc. That goes without saying. But you seem really happy about possible fragmentation in the EU - which, once we've Brexited, isn't a good thing for us.

I get it. You're happy about Brexit. But it's more than that - you're happy to see disunity and misery elsewhere. Like Raven it looks like you want to watch the world burn.

 

[Bodhi]

From spending the week speaking to our European colleagues, they only thing I see sowing disunity in Europe is the EU itself - those who like the socilaist supra-national project, and those who don't. Any bad feeling I got towards us Brits was solely because we got a vote on things - they didn't.

The most popular outcome I picked up on was that if the EU were to fail and be replaced by some sort of European Alliance, a Community almost, where we focused on co-operation and trade, and less of the United States of Europe idea, which apart from a few bureaucrats based in Belgium, no one seems to really want. Sounds an awesome idea - you have to ask why it hasn't already been tried....

 

[Raven]

They don't want change. They want the old boys club. Some people are happy to go along with that, mostly old men who have failed at traditional politics so have got a cushy number at the EU.

 

[Scouse]

socilaist supra-national project

This is where you're totally and utterly wrong.

Jeremy Corbyn wants out of the EU because you cannot run a socialist economic system legally within Europe. It's a capitalist system through and through by design.

Sure it's undemocratic, sure there are policies in the EU to reign in capitalist excess. But it is not and never has been a socialist project.

 

[Bodhi]

This is where you're totally and utterly wrong.

Jeremy Corbyn wants out of the EU because you cannot run a socialist economic system legally within Europe. It's a capitalist system through and through by design.

Sure it's undemocratic, sure there are policies in the EU to reign in capitalist excess. But it is not and never has been a socialist project.

Eurosocialism - Wikipedia

 

[Scouse]

Eurosocialism - Wikipedia

Yes. But do you even understand what you're reading/posting there?

That's social democracy in a capitalist economic system. It's not "socialism". Actual socialism involves socialist economic systems - for economy is ultimately the arbiter of pretty much everything. And the EU is capitalist through and through.

To anyone with a basic working knowledge of how the EU is put together it's clear I was completely aware of what your link "informed" me of ("reigning in capitalist excess"). But your post indicates that you don't actually know what the basic structure of the EU is. And if you don't know the basics you really can't expect anything you say about it to be taken seriously.


Edit: Socialist Party of Great Britain, just like Jeremy Corbyn, wants out of the EU - because it's capitalist.

 

[Bodhi]

So a bunch of communists find a centre-left ideology too right wing?

And in other news, the pope has been discovered shitting in the woods.

 

[DaGaffer]

Yes. But do you even understand what you're reading/posting there?

That's social democracy in a capitalist economic system. It's not "socialism". Actual socialism involves socialist economic systems - for economy is ultimately the arbiter of pretty much everything. And the EU is capitalist through and through.

To anyone with a basic working knowledge of how the EU is put together it's clear I was completely aware of what your link "informed" me of ("reigning in capitalist excess"). But your post indicates that you don't actually know what the basic structure of the EU is. And if you don't know the basics you really can't expect anything you say about it to be taken seriously.


Edit: Socialist Party of Great Britain, just like Jeremy Corbyn, wants out of the EU - because it's capitalist.

Was about to post something similar @Bodhi is suffering from "American misunderstanding of what socialism is" syndrome. The EU is, at its most left-wing, a social-democracy; and I don't have much of a problem with that.

 

[DaGaffer]

So a bunch of communists find a centre-left ideology too right wing?

And in other news, the pope has been discovered shitting in the woods.

Nowhere in the EU is there any policy of public or state ownership of the means of production (the core of socialism), in fact by law, the opposite is the case; its almost impossible to nationalise anything. When the Irish state had to take over the failing banks it was with a specific commitment to the EU that it was a temporary state of affairs and the banks had to go back into private ownership.

 

[Bodhi]

So even though it's called Eurosocialism, it isn't socialism? Seems a bit like me trying to argue that the Crony Capitalist society we live in right now isn't capitalist as it isn't the true form of capitalism?

Socialism-lite it may be, but still socialism tbh.

If it was a true Social Democracy I might have a bit more time for it, but too much of it is too similar to what was put in place in the USSR for my liking - central command government, obliteration of nation states, trying to create a new "race" of people - the European.

 

[Scouse]

@Bodhi in proveable 'no clue whatsoever' non-shocker.

On a serious note - your lack of understanding is shocking. Total education failure. How can you hold any opinion that is rational, no better than that of a child's on this subject?

The EU is capitalist. It is built on a capitalist economic system. It's laws prohibit socialism. Period. End of.

 

[Bodhi]

@Bodhi in proveable 'no clue whatsoever' non-shocker.

On a serious note - your lack of understanding is shocking. Total education failure. How can you hold any opinion that is rational, no better than that of a child's on this subject?

The EU is capitalist. It is built on a capitalist economic system. It's laws prohibit socialism. Period. End of.

I thought we weren't doing playing the man rather than the ball? Or does that fit into "Do as I say, not as I do", which you seem such a fan of?

 

[Raven]

You're wasting your time.

You can tell he is triggered though, the big guns (Facepalm machinegun) are out.

 

[Bodhi]

I know, but it is fun seeing some of the twisting and turning going on. Personal attacks are teh bad, you twat!

Even funnier when you see what a rigid definition of socialism they are using, believing for it to be socialist it has to be state owned (the Bolshevik model - probably closest to certain people's beliefs to be fair), when all socialism states is controlled by the workers.

 

[Scouse]

I thought we weren't doing playing the man rather than the ball? Or does that fit into "Do as I say, not as I do", which you seem such a fan of?

You ignored the ball several times.

When I say "ignored" I mean can't even see it. Once you refused to concede that the the EU's constitution is capitalist and expressly forbids socialism you halted any pretence that a discussion was taking place.



Edit: Thought I was on ignore @Raven?

 

[Raven]

Oh I don't know what he is on about, I had to lie down the last time I clicked "show ignored content" the douchbaggery was too much.

I can imagine how its going though

Reasoned argument
Counter argument
Reasoned argument
The ramblings of a delusional narcissist
Reasoned argument
Autistic screaming

Its teh normal.

 

[Scouse]

rigid definition of socialism

Not rigid, actual...

If you like, the sky is blue. But you say it's orange. But it's blue. Then you start complaining about what a "rigid definition of blue that some people are using"...

 

[Scouse]

I can imagine how its going though

Hey @caLLous!

SO funny. He's posted in response to me saying he was on ignore to make it LOOK like he hadn't just read my post

He's so funny. Kinda like a semi-ignore.

 

[DaGaffer]

I know, but it is fun seeing some of the twisting and turning going on. Personal attacks are teh bad, you twat!

Even funnier when you see what a rigid definition of socialism they are using, believing for it to be socialist it has to be state owned (the Bolshevik model - probably closest to certain people's beliefs to be fair), when all socialism states is controlled by the workers.

Which, unless those workers want to buy shares, is illegal under EU law. Workers' cooperatives are allowed*, but state (which in practical terms is control by the workers, or the nearest you can get at scale) ownership isn't, unless its deemed a strategic industry, like certain defence companies, and even then total state ownership is discouraged. You also don't know what "central command government" means; the EU is nothing like the Soviet Union in that regard. Not even close.

The difference between the EU and US is primarily increased state regulation (which is a necessary evil with 27 different legal and political systems to contend with), versus increased legal costs in the US.

(*which ironically weren't allowed in the Soviet Union unless the state forced you into one).

 

[Bodhi]

Not rigid, actual...

If you like, the sky is blue. But you say it's orange. But it's blue. Then you start complaining about what a "rigid definition of blue that some people are using"...

From Wiki's fake fact generator (I assume we can still use this)

Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and workers' control of the means of production;[10] as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim to establish them

Now I may be being a little blind (jet lag does that), but I don't see any reference to the involvement of the state in that?

In fact the same article even has a little section on the role of the state - Socialism - Wikipedia

So if the definition you are using to suggest I am incorrect is in fact incorrect, that pretty much makes your point (and all the Facepalms, as amusing as ever) invalid.

 

[Scouse]

is illegal under EU law.

Aww Gaff. If you weren't tied down to such a rigid definition of what illegal, EU and law means then everything'd be fine.

Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and workers' control of the means of production

....

Have I missed something? Very first line of the article you linked and actual repost of your quote. Did you read it before posting? Or is it that you don't understand what that means?

Isn't private enterprise the cornerstone of the EU economic system? Ownership of the means of production in private hands?

Oh, unless you have a loose defintion of "private ownership" that we're not aware of in your magic language land?

 

[Raven]

The EU is neither socialist, nor capitalist.

It attempts to cherry pick the best parts of each, equality through capitalism, the rush for cheap labour...for example...which is never going to work, whichever way you look at it.

All you get is far richer rich people and ever so slightly less piss poor, poor people.

Edit, its an even more ludicrous concept when you add to the muddle, pan EU taxation and fiscal policy, which is what they are rushing toward.