Shadowblades...

[Kagato]

I'm trying a new CS spec which I keep cocking up moves on (used Hamstring about 10 times on Kagato without evading first ^^ = 50 damage per hit)
Oli - Illu

Wondered why you died easier then normal I was actually looking forward to trying some new stuff on you too

 

[Azathrim]

Seriously Puppet, you are so fast at yelling NERF at anything that might actually kill your characters. You are fast at giving elaborate lists and long winded thoughts on why this and that is overpowered (as it basicly boils down to it being a threat to you).

I think it would be a healthy challenge for you, to look at your own class and see what it got going for you. On many levels, you might benefit from suchs a challenge.

Don't be afraid, you can do it.

So Puppet, are you as usual just hot air and loaded whine?

Perhaps that is why you whine so much? You refuse to look at what good your class got going for it.

Do that more and whine less.

 

[Eeben]

So Puppet, are you as usual just hot air and loaded whine?

Perhaps that is why you whine so much? You refuse to look at what good your class got going for it.

Do that more and whine less.

why do you quote your self an talk about puppet? i dont get it

 

[Azathrim]

Because that was a reply to Puppet, which he apparently ignored. Which in return makes me think he is just a bag of air with a scent of foul whine and lame excuses.

 

[Puppet]

So Puppet, are you as usual just hot air and loaded whine?

Perhaps that is why you whine so much? You refuse to look at what good your class got going for it.

Do that more and whine less.

I know exactly whats better on my class then on the Shadowblade, and I already made this list a few times (well, in an opposite way --> whats better on a SB then on a NS). Both on VNBoards (where u where reading aswell) as here. You think it makes a difference if I do it again?

Anyhow, regarding the Pierce-specced Nightshade the NS has the following advantage:

* He has an insta-DoT and a insta-DD and a damage-shield.
* Access to an off-evade stun, first in chain (5 sec)
* Access to Ice-storm, positional stun.
* Access to haste on the buffbot (SB's need to share buffbots)
* Can viably spec for 50 Critstrike, resulting in a 10% more style-damage (@RR6). Equal to about 10 more style-damage on styles in the evade-chain, typically


Just for you I add the Blade-NS his advantage(s) aswell:

* Access to a mundane damage-type which the SB is weak to.
* He has an insta-DoT and a insta-DD and a damage-shield.
* Access to Ice-storm, positional stun.
* Access to haste on the buffbot (SB's need to share buffbots)
* Can viably spec for 50 Critstrike, resulting in a 10% more style-damage (@RR6). Equal to about 10 more style-damage on styles in the evade-chain, typically


Now lets make a list for the Shadowblade, shall we?

* Access to a better race, meaning 6% more damage and better chances to penetrate defenses
* Inherently more HP. We often hear the number 'thats only 50 HP' however when you compare Norse to a Lurikeen, you're looking at a typical 250~ HP with the same SC, Championlevel and RA's
* Access to an off-evade stun, 2nd in chain (7 secs)
* Better dualwielding-mechanics when it comes to applying poisons. As prooven by Wyrd various times, LA = CD/DW dps. Both can outperform eachother on the first 5 swings, depending on the RNG.
* Bludgeon allows Shadowblades to fight each class with Mundane weapons (thus higher damage, because of the artifacts stats and bonusses) and only face Neutral-armour in the worst case-scenario. Fighting assassins they can use a damage-type the enemy is weak to. For the price of speccing 1 damage-type. Bludgeon is 30 secs each 5 mins (therefore by definition its always up, just as Remedy was for NS according to SB's)
* Access to a style-reduction artifact (Phoebus Necklace), meaning a SB can reduce all style-damage (for 5 mins) with 75%. Enemy faces typical a 75-damage reduction on the evade-chain per style, and roughly 40-50 on anytimers.

It is quite hard comparing those advantages point-per-point, however in my opinion, pierce-NS now comes out subpar. Making the WS-debuff affect the Piercing-weapons just as much, harder to SC (need both STR and DEX), removing the Diamondback (subpar damage)--> Hamstring-chain nerfs it more. Adding CL-resists another -10% damage etc etc.

I actually respecced my Ranger to Blades, and its good. Its much better then Pierce now is, basically prooving my point that Pierce is gutted nowadays. What annoys me greatly however is that in *EVERY* discussion the Shadowblades where whining over Blades/Slash NS/INF how hard they hit on their slash-weak armour, but often in the same sentence moaned about off-evade stuns and such. Pierce is gutted, not so much because of SB-love, but because of the changes to the game itself. The SB-love is just the drip: Atleast before 1.82 the SB was resistant to my mundane-damage, but I was to his.

However, the irony of this all is the fact Mythic changes a class due to its problems in competing in 1vs1. I do like this change, but I doubt Mythic will use this guide-line when it comes to some other classes which are extremely OP in 1vs1.

Did I think Shadowblades needed love? Yes, they did. However there where far better options available. Equalizing armours, and adding a thrust-spec to SB's instead of this band-aid fix. Obviously style-reduction has to go aswell, and from there we got a pretty solid base to do minor tweaks to rebalance the classes.

 

[Nuxtobatns]

Have u ever tried to design a template equal to the best NS/Infils got and still fit PH in it ? If u have..plz share. Its not good to be Chuck Norris look alike for 5 mins (and yet possibly without malice/battler/other item use) and then keep company to your bb for the next 10.

Side stun without opener is OP itself..not only cause it can be landed while strafing. It was also proved yesterday when i lead Aim and that infil he was grped with on u (as i tried to escape) while i knew u were healing up in water. When i came back to watch u were able to take them both down and deal with me looking (good job Eben, next time come alone and /rel as a man like u did on the last 1vs1 we had, imagine if i was hasted)

NS magic is something all good players should be really like they had imo (tho i have never played with it rvr)

And yes...pierce seems to be underpreforming...but frankly..i dont care !
Also the love NS got when they were given remedy 1st time was like twice the love SBs got now.

 

[Eeben]

deal with me looking (good job Eben, next time come alone and /rel as a man .

if you mean me by eben i sold the acc so not me playing it

 

[Puppet]

Have u ever tried to design a template equal to the best NS/Infils got and still fit PH in it ? If u have..plz share. Its not good to be Chuck Norris look alike for 5 mins (and yet possibly without malice/battler/other item use) and then keep company to your bb for the next 10.

While PH drops your total utility (it takes the place of a 80 UV necklace), compared to a Pierce-template its not that bad. With Bludgeon you can pretty much SC with 2 fixed weapons, and you dont need any DEX in your template.

The fact you see loads of hunters and SB's with Phoebus Necklace (and WH for hunters) also kinda shows that its definitly an option.

Side stun without opener is OP itself..not only cause it can be landed while strafing. It was also proved yesterday when i lead Aim and that infil he was grped with on u (as i tried to escape) while i knew u were healing up in water. When i came back to watch u were able to take them both down and deal with me looking (good job Eben, next time come alone and /rel as a man like u did on the last 1vs1 we had, imagine if i was hasted)

So because a RR9 Nightshade and a RR9 Ranger can beat Aim and an infiltrator, the side-stun is OP ? Kinda failing to see your point, sorry :<

NS magic is something all good players should be really like they had imo (tho i have never played with it rvr)

It is nice, yes. But quite situational. More STR and more HP always works.

And yes...pierce seems to be underpreforming...but frankly..i dont care !
Also the love NS got when they were given remedy 1st time was like twice the love SBs got now.

My points where mostly about Pierce, glad to see you agree. First time Nightshades got Remedy was at New Frontiers-launch. Nightshades lost Avoid Pain and Mastery of the Arcane for Remedy (they kept a Viper-ability). Biggest love however at that time was the fact we didnt have to run to Emain anymore while being ganked by Bolg-campers.

 

[Nuxtobatns]

Come on..i didnt mean Aim in particularly that is a hands off keyboard kill...dont tell me this side stun isnt a great FREE tool in general...

And i have tried PHN template as sb...i didnt like it...timer is too short and it greatly messes with the rest of the timers (especially since i need to also have AF/haste charges in those timers)
Hunters on the other hand need it as they need WH helm too...so basically...they got a 10 min charge and 5 min cooldown

Also hp and str didnt work for me when u FZed me when i was chasing Eben after that nice 980+450 (something like that) 2h PA. He jumped in water and i had to swim there to try to kill...while i couldnt interupt him as he used CL healing..and blablabla the fight went on and i lost from u as i was trying to catch up with eben running around

 

[Puppet]

Come on..i didnt mean Aim in particularly that is a hands off keyboard kill...dont tell me this side stun isnt a great FREE tool in general...

And i have tried PHN template as sb...i didnt like it...timer is too short and it greatly messes with the rest of the timers (especially since i need to also have AF/haste charges in those timers)
Hunters on the other hand need it as they need WH helm too...so basically...they got a 10 min charge and 5 min cooldown

Also hp and str didnt work for me when u FZed me when i was chasing Eben after that nice 980+450 (something like that) 2h PA. He jumped in water and i had to swim there to try to kill...while i couldnt interupt him as he used CL healing..and blablabla the fight went on and i lost from u as i was trying to catch up with eben running around

Hehe, well I can understand you dont like PHN, but I know I would like it. I also agree the side-stun is very nice to have, but so is for example Hunter's back-stun. The fact I used FZ was merely to try and safe Eden, which worked Both Eden and me chuckled abit after the fight with 'LOL landing 1300+ perf and then have the bad luck u cant finish Eden off on 5% hp'

Anyhow when I hear Grivne saying he perfs on average casters for 1200-1400 I do think 2H perfs becoming very viable. Combined with Lifebane that will kill most casters in 1-hit if you let the poison do its work and the casters receives no healing

 

[xxManiacxx]

and on average meaning <50% of the time for him

 

[Jox]

...

I know exactly whats better on my class then on the Shadowblade, and I already made this list a few times (well, in an opposite way --> whats better on a SB then on a NS). Both on VNBoards (where u where reading aswell) as here. You think it makes a difference if I do it again?

Anyhow, regarding the Pierce-specced Nightshade the NS has the following advantage:

* He has an insta-DoT and a insta-DD and a damage-shield.
* Access to an off-evade stun, first in chain (5 sec)
* Access to Ice-storm, positional stun.
* Access to haste on the buffbot (SB's need to share buffbots)
* Can viably spec for 50 Critstrike, resulting in a 10% more style-damage (@RR6). Equal to about 10 more style-damage on styles in the evade-chain, typically


Just for you I add the Blade-NS his advantage(s) aswell:

* Access to a mundane damage-type which the SB is weak to.
* He has an insta-DoT and a insta-DD and a damage-shield.
* Access to Ice-storm, positional stun.
* Access to haste on the buffbot (SB's need to share buffbots)
* Can viably spec for 50 Critstrike, resulting in a 10% more style-damage (@RR6). Equal to about 10 more style-damage on styles in the evade-chain, typically


Now lets make a list for the Shadowblade, shall we?

* Access to a better race, meaning 6% more damage and better chances to penetrate defenses
* Inherently more HP. We often hear the number 'thats only 50 HP' however when you compare Norse to a Lurikeen, you're looking at a typical 250~ HP with the same SC, Championlevel and RA's
* Access to an off-evade stun, 2nd in chain (7 secs)
* Better dualwielding-mechanics when it comes to applying poisons. As prooven by Wyrd various times, LA = CD/DW dps. Both can outperform eachother on the first 5 swings, depending on the RNG.
* Bludgeon allows Shadowblades to fight each class with Mundane weapons (thus higher damage, because of the artifacts stats and bonusses) and only face Neutral-armour in the worst case-scenario. Fighting assassins they can use a damage-type the enemy is weak to. For the price of speccing 1 damage-type. Bludgeon is 30 secs each 5 mins (therefore by definition its always up, just as Remedy was for NS according to SB's)
* Access to a style-reduction artifact (Phoebus Necklace), meaning a SB can reduce all style-damage (for 5 mins) with 75%. Enemy faces typical a 75-damage reduction on the evade-chain per style, and roughly 40-50 on anytimers.

It is quite hard comparing those advantages point-per-point, however in my opinion, pierce-NS now comes out subpar. Making the WS-debuff affect the Piercing-weapons just as much, harder to SC (need both STR and DEX), removing the Diamondback (subpar damage)--> Hamstring-chain nerfs it more. Adding CL-resists another -10% damage etc etc.

I actually respecced my Ranger to Blades, and its good. Its much better then Pierce now is, basically prooving my point that Pierce is gutted nowadays. What annoys me greatly however is that in *EVERY* discussion the Shadowblades where whining over Blades/Slash NS/INF how hard they hit on their slash-weak armour, but often in the same sentence moaned about off-evade stuns and such. Pierce is gutted, not so much because of SB-love, but because of the changes to the game itself. The SB-love is just the drip: Atleast before 1.82 the SB was resistant to my mundane-damage, but I was to his.

However, the irony of this all is the fact Mythic changes a class due to its problems in competing in 1vs1. I do like this change, but I doubt Mythic will use this guide-line when it comes to some other classes which are extremely OP in 1vs1.

Did I think Shadowblades needed love? Yes, they did. However there where far better options available. Equalizing armours, and adding a thrust-spec to SB's instead of this band-aid fix. Obviously style-reduction has to go aswell, and from there we got a pretty solid base to do minor tweaks to rebalance the classes.

Stop it Glottis, we know its you!

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

So because a RR9 Nightshade and a RR9 Ranger can beat Aim and an infiltrator, the side-stun is OP ? Kinda failing to see your point, sorry :<

because you can land the sidestun while infront maktes it OP. that is the point keke?

 

[Nuxtobatns]

Not only that. Generally it is a very good free weap against all. even vs casters when they add/or miss PA/BS

 

[Aloca]

Im going to jump into the Celt NS sub discussion.

Celt:
75 Str
60 Con
105 Dex
83 Qui

Lurikeen:
55 Str
40 Con
125 Dex
103 Qui


Why does everyone want Mythic to alow Celt to be Nightshade?
As a BladeShade they will do 4% more damage. They got 20 Con more. 20 Less dex but will still be over 300 Dex. 20 Less quickness but will hit 250 Qui cap.

Advantages being Celt:
More Damage (If Blades), More Hitpoints.

Advantages being Lurikeen:
Easier to build spell craft template.

Now as the people wondering why Celt cant be NS basicly answer their own question, Becouse it will overall perform Better than Lurikeen.

Now every change that is applied to NS will be calculated from Celt PoV leading to either a Nerf of NS all together or missing out a Boost. All changes will also affect Celt the same or better than Lurikeen (Except removing Qui Cap and Evade Cap)

 

[dub]

I know exactly whats better on my class then on the Shadowblade, and I already made this list a few times (well, in an opposite way --> whats better on a SB then on a NS). Both on VNBoards (where u where reading aswell) as here. You think it makes a difference if I do it again?

Anyhow, regarding the Pierce-specced Nightshade the NS has the following advantage:

* He has an insta-DoT and a insta-DD and a damage-shield.
* Access to an off-evade stun, first in chain (5 sec)
* Access to Ice-storm, positional stun.
* Access to haste on the buffbot (SB's need to share buffbots)
* Can viably spec for 50 Critstrike, resulting in a 10% more style-damage (@RR6). Equal to about 10 more style-damage on styles in the evade-chain, typically


Just for you I add the Blade-NS his advantage(s) aswell:

* Access to a mundane damage-type which the SB is weak to.
* He has an insta-DoT and a insta-DD and a damage-shield.
* Access to Ice-storm, positional stun.
* Access to haste on the buffbot (SB's need to share buffbots)
* Can viably spec for 50 Critstrike, resulting in a 10% more style-damage (@RR6). Equal to about 10 more style-damage on styles in the evade-chain, typically


Now lets make a list for the Shadowblade, shall we?

* Access to a better race, meaning 6% more damage and better chances to penetrate defenses
* Inherently more HP. We often hear the number 'thats only 50 HP' however when you compare Norse to a Lurikeen, you're looking at a typical 250~ HP with the same SC, Championlevel and RA's
* Access to an off-evade stun, 2nd in chain (7 secs)
* Better dualwielding-mechanics when it comes to applying poisons. As prooven by Wyrd various times, LA = CD/DW dps. Both can outperform eachother on the first 5 swings, depending on the RNG.
* Bludgeon allows Shadowblades to fight each class with Mundane weapons (thus higher damage, because of the artifacts stats and bonusses) and only face Neutral-armour in the worst case-scenario. Fighting assassins they can use a damage-type the enemy is weak to. For the price of speccing 1 damage-type. Bludgeon is 30 secs each 5 mins (therefore by definition its always up, just as Remedy was for NS according to SB's)
* Access to a style-reduction artifact (Phoebus Necklace), meaning a SB can reduce all style-damage (for 5 mins) with 75%. Enemy faces typical a 75-damage reduction on the evade-chain per style, and roughly 40-50 on anytimers.

It is quite hard comparing those advantages point-per-point, however in my opinion, pierce-NS now comes out subpar. Making the WS-debuff affect the Piercing-weapons just as much, harder to SC (need both STR and DEX), removing the Diamondback (subpar damage)--> Hamstring-chain nerfs it more. Adding CL-resists another -10% damage etc etc.

I actually respecced my Ranger to Blades, and its good. Its much better then Pierce now is, basically prooving my point that Pierce is gutted nowadays. What annoys me greatly however is that in *EVERY* discussion the Shadowblades where whining over Blades/Slash NS/INF how hard they hit on their slash-weak armour, but often in the same sentence moaned about off-evade stuns and such. Pierce is gutted, not so much because of SB-love, but because of the changes to the game itself. The SB-love is just the drip: Atleast before 1.82 the SB was resistant to my mundane-damage, but I was to his.

However, the irony of this all is the fact Mythic changes a class due to its problems in competing in 1vs1. I do like this change, but I doubt Mythic will use this guide-line when it comes to some other classes which are extremely OP in 1vs1.

Did I think Shadowblades needed love? Yes, they did. However there where far better options available. Equalizing armours, and adding a thrust-spec to SB's instead of this band-aid fix. Obviously style-reduction has to go aswell, and from there we got a pretty solid base to do minor tweaks to rebalance the classes.

in general i agree with you that 1.82 is a band-aid and and had preferred the armour redoing and removal of remedy from game as a fix myself , but to list frostygaze as a benefit on sb is kinda pushing your lists credibility ?

 

[Puppet]

in general i agree with you that 1.82 is a band-aid and and had preferred the armour redoing and removal of remedy from game as a fix myself , but to list frostygaze as a benefit on sb is kinda pushing your lists credibility ?

Why? I listed Diamondback aswell for Pierce-shades.

 

[dub]

Why? I listed Diamondback aswell for Pierce-shades.

ill just let that stand as it is , no point delving further into it

 

[Cylian]

Now lets make a list for the Shadowblade, shall we?
* Inherently more HP. We often hear the number 'thats only 50 HP' however when you compare Norse to a Lurikeen, you're looking at a typical 250~ HP with the same SC, Championlevel and RA's

How does that work out ?
Norse to Lurikeen is a 30 Con difference. At CL5 my kobbi get's about 4.18 HP per con point, so 30 Con would be 125 HP.

* Access to an off-evade stun, 2nd in chain (7 secs)

WTT 2nd in chain stun 4 off-evade stun :x
less of an issue now that you can't just spam the Hamstring chain after it though.

* Better dualwielding-mechanics when it comes to applying poisons. As prooven by Wyrd various times, LA = CD/DW dps. Both can outperform eachother on the first 5 swings, depending on the RNG.

For NS/Inf:
Better dualwielding-mechanics when it comes to front loading damage. As prooven by Wyrd various times, LA = CD/DW dps. Both can outperform eachother on the first 5 swings, depending on the RNG.

 

[Puppet]

How does that work out ?
Norse to Lurikeen is a 30 Con difference. At CL5 my kobbi get's about 4.18 HP per con point, so 30 Con would be 125 HP.

+ The additional HP received 'just being a Shadowblade' which comes in addition to the 30 CON more. To compare: My Elf NS with 10 CON @ creation, having 80 CON in SC, 240 HP, Toughness2 has 2072 HP. Typical SB I speak have 2300+ HP with a comparable RA/Template/CL5. Curious about more numbers tho, so please post

WTT 2nd in chain stun 4 off-evade stun :x
less of an issue now that you can't just spam the Hamstring chain after it though.

Agreed, its not thát useful anymore (or a pain, depending on which side of the battle you're on). Which is another 'Pierce NS 'nerf''.

For NS/Inf:
Better dualwielding-mechanics when it comes to front loading damage. As prooven by Wyrd various times, LA = CD/DW dps. Both can outperform eachother on the first 5 swings, depending on the RNG.

Indeed, tho better frontloading obviously comes into the INF/NS favour, but that goes both ways, we can also be behind the INF/NS, depending on the RNG. Also the best frontloading is obviously a twohander.

 

[Azathrim]

I know exactly whats better on my class then on the Shadowblade, and I already made this list a few times (well, in an opposite way --> whats better on a SB then on a NS). Both on VNBoards (where u where reading aswell) as here. You think it makes a difference if I do it again?

Excactly, in an opposite way. Nerf, nerf, nerf, the usual stuff we hear from you. So, it is nice to see you finally take up the challenge (although, hard pushed) and look at your own class in a positive manner.

One thing though, your spin is quite obvious in this one, you could have done this better. I have therefore taken the liberty to rewrite it. The same meaning, just a different flavour.


Anyhow, regarding the Pierce-specced Nightshade the NS has the following advantage:

* He has an insta-DoT and a insta-DD and a damage-shield.

* He has an insta-DOT, which allows him to negate most non-vanish attempts to flee and stealth for enemies. The DOT thus allows great utility on top of it's aproximately 120 damage which further increases the DPS of the Nightshade.
* He has an insta-DD and castable DD allowing for utility when it comes to keeping enemy archers/casters interrupted at range or resetting stealth timer on fleeing enemies. Furthermore, this is a great tool to pop enemies in order to avoid PA's and thus get the first hit advantage!
* He has a damage-shield, augmenting the damage the NS delivers in a melee session.

* Access to an off-evade stun, first in chain (5 sec)

Access to an off-evade stun, which are relatively easy to land and allows the very easy use of powerful positional styles like Pincer.

* Access to Ice-storm, positional stun.

Access to Ice-storm, supposedly positional stun, but in many cases an anytime stun. Even so, it's of great utility really augmenting hib stealth duo/zergs tremendiously.

* Access to haste on the buffbot (SB's need to share buffbots)

Access to haste on a buffbot, allowing further use of charges, et all.

* Can viably spec for 50 Critstrike, resulting in a 10% more style-damage (@RR6). Equal to about 10 more style-damage on styles in the evade-chain, typically

Huge flexibility in spec options. Whereas the thrust infil are bound to 50 Thrust for the evade stun and the SB are bound for 39 left axe (or sword), the low cost of 25 pierce allows the NS the greatest amount of freedom for speccing within the thrust/pierce/sb categories.

And now for some you conviniently forgot.

* Armour strong to slash, the most common melee based damage type in the game.
* High QUI race choises, allowing for easier templating than the corresponding options for saracen/briton infiltrators.
* Better starting stats, having 15 more total weaponskill stat ( (dex+str) / 2 ) if a proper full capping suit compared to a Norse SB.
* High base crush resists if had chosen Lurikeen as race, basicly negating half of Bludgeon.

Now lets make a list for the Shadowblade, shall we?

Yeah let us! You did your version, let me try to repeat it the same way you did the Nightshades benefits.

* Access to a better race, meaning 6% more damage and better chances to penetrate defenses

If chosing norse, slightly better str/con than other assassins. The Mythic suggested race, Kobolds being a low strength race on a pure strength based melee option.

* Inherently more HP. We often hear the number 'thats only 50 HP' however when you compare Norse to a Lurikeen, you're looking at a typical 250~ HP with the same SC, Championlevel and RA's

The class specific bonus giving a slight bonus to HP, while the counterparts have alot more spec points or great utility magic. This class defining bonus is even a drawback at times, as remedy costs more actual hits and the ws/con debuff hits for higher numbers due to the bonus not beeing a flat number like Toughness, but a higher hp/con ratio.

* Access to an off-evade stun, 2nd in chain (7 secs)

The longest melee stun available, although it's second in chain giving ample oppertunity for the alert opponent to counter it with strafing.

* Better dualwielding-mechanics when it comes to applying poisons. As prooven by Wyrd various times, LA = CD/DW dps. Both can outperform eachother on the first 5 swings, depending on the RNG.

A better chance to land applying two poisons. The drawback here being forced to spec high LA to counter the variance on the left axe and speccing left axe in general as a 0 LA spec have lower DPS than a 0 CD/DW template of the counterparts.

* Bludgeon allows Shadowblades to fight each class with Mundane weapons (thus higher damage, because of the artifacts stats and bonusses) and only face Neutral-armour in the worst case-scenario. Fighting assassins they can use a damage-type the enemy is weak to. For the price of speccing 1 damage-type. Bludgeon is 30 secs each 5 mins (therefore by definition its always up, just as Remedy was for NS according to SB's)

Bludgeon giving the SB the ability to be on the same damage level as it's slash/blades specced counterparts on a 5 minute timer, while the counterparts don't have this timer to fight.

* Access to a style-reduction artifact (Phoebus Necklace), meaning a SB can reduce all style-damage (for 5 mins) with 75%. Enemy faces typical a 75-damage reduction on the evade-chain per style, and roughly 40-50 on anytimers.

Access to PHN, which is great when it's up 5 out of 15 minutes, but at the cost of removing a high utility value item and paying a high cost in terms of using timer slots.


See Puppet, you can do alot with putting extreme bias in the way you state things. You of all know this. Could we please now try to keep the tone of the discussions on a level head and avoid the vivid exagerations or outright misinformations you have made yourself famous for doing?

Thank you!

 

[Belomar]

It's a pity stealthers never held any appeal to me, there is obviously lots and lots of things to learn about the subject.

 

[Aloca]

It's a pity stealthers never held any appeal to me, there is obviously lots and lots of things to learn about the subject.

Stealthers is art, perfection or die.

 

[Vodkafairy]

Stealthers is art, perfection or die.

amen

 

[Azathrim]

Stealthers is art, perfection or die.

Oh yes, the solo stealther is probably the sub-part of the game that requires the most focus and punishes mistakes the greatest in term of outcome. Not saying other parts of the game is not intense or demanding in any way. This is just a little tougher than the rest.

That is probably also why the threads on the subjects of stealthers usually turn rather long-winded with very heated debates going back and forth.

 

[Nuxtobatns]

Stealthers is art, perfection or die.

amen

 

[xxManiacxx]

Stealthers is art, perfection or die.

Amen to that!

 

[Flimgoblin]

Oh yes, the solo stealther is probably the sub-part of the game that requires the most focus and punishes mistakes the greatest in term of outcome. Not saying other parts of the game is not intense or demanding in any way. This is just a little tougher than the rest.

That is probably also why the threads on the subjects of stealthers usually turn rather long-winded with very heated debates going back and forth.

guess solo stealther rather than solo visible at least you get less arbitrary flattenings by wandering fg/duo etc. as you're more likely to be able to choose your fights (not saying you always can of course)

 

[Melachi]

Tbh, SB is top of the chain, but by a little ammount.

PH should go, no doubt about it, never used it on my SB.
Bludgeon, in a wide perspective isnt fair, since it allows us to have two damage types, but in stealther rvr which is in all fairness what the class is about these days, balanced imo, we can use physical weapons your weak too, and vice a versa. Giving us thrust would do f all to help that problem.


I havent yet tried 1.82, havent been able to play the game since January, but Im looking forward to trying a battler+malice temp with great stats, instead of the usual 15+ overcap str, and heat resist screwed if i change weapon to anything but a cold/heat lw.

[Edit]Having said all that, NS / SB / INF balance is the closest it's ever been.

 

[Puppet]

* He has an insta-DOT, which allows him to negate most non-vanish attempts to flee and stealth for enemies. The DOT thus allows great utility on top of it's aproximately 120 damage which further increases the DPS of the Nightshade.

120 damage? I would be happy if it dealed half of that. Not to mention the 30 sec recast means I can only use it once in a typical fight. Add purge and such and ur looking at even less damage. It can also be resisted, obviously

* He has an insta-DD and castable DD allowing for utility when it comes to keeping enemy archers/casters interrupted at range or resetting stealth timer on fleeing enemies. Furthermore, this is a great tool to pop enemies in order to avoid PA's and thus get the first hit advantage!

I dont know why I would 'pop' an assassin with insta DD. I mean, if I see him i can just HIT him. If he's not in melee-range, there's little reason to be afraid of a perf. Not to mention the fact that when it is resisted, it destealths me, and not the enemy, allowing for easy perfs for him. In all honesty I cant think of 1 opportunity where I used the insta-DD to avoid perfs.

The casted DD is very nice to interrupt archers/casters, but a SB can spec for one from CL's if he desires this utility. I did that on my ranger, specced for a DoT and voilla, even more utility !

* He has a damage-shield, augmenting the damage the NS delivers in a melee session.

Think I forgot that one, as its newly added. Its fundamentally wrong tho, it should be a damage add. The dmg-shield makes vanish quite useless against NPC's and only delivers damage when I get hit, which is quite silly on a class based on evade and not getting hit. Furthermore damage-shields where widely available already (nature subspec on druid, baseline on our casters) and some artifacts (eg. Croc Tooth Dagger).

Access to an off-evade stun, which are relatively easy to land and allows the very easy use of powerful positional styles like Pincer

Access to Ice-storm, supposedly positional stun, but in many cases an anytime stun. Even so, it's of great utility really augmenting hib stealth duo/zergs tremendiously.

If I can land Ice-storm anytime, I can land Pincer anytime aswell. Yet I never see SB's do it. Or infiltrators. Something must be very weird about this xD

Huge flexibility in spec options. Whereas the thrust infil are bound to 50 Thrust for the evade stun and the SB are bound for 39 left axe (or sword), the low cost of 25 pierce allows the NS the greatest amount of freedom for speccing within the thrust/pierce/sb categories.

The stun is quite useless nowadays. Hamstring-chain is so much more powerful (more damage, ABS-debuff which pretty much allows hitting for cap-damage on leather) I wouldnt even use Diamondback nowadays anymore as Assassin. Simply counterproductive.

* Armour strong to slash, the most common melee based damage type in the game.

Hardly a big-deal nowadays with Bludgeon. And I got my doubts if most 'visibles' spec slash.

* High QUI race choises, allowing for easier templating than the corresponding options for saracen/briton infiltrators.
* Better starting stats, having 15 more total weaponskill stat ( (dex+str) / 2 ) if a proper full capping suit compared to a Norse SB.

I think I should take these two together. If I go Pierce (which the argument was based on), I need way more DEX then a SB does. About 101 more DEX needed. So you're saying removing 15-25 QUI from your SC is an advantage, while I have to put 101 DEX on it? Thats just... twisted logic, sorry.

Also you discard the disadvantage of our Aug RA's to be twice as expensive relatively. As a Pierce shade needs Aug STR3 and Aug DEX3 to gain as much as a SB does from Aug STR3.

* High base crush resists if had chosen Lurikeen as race, basicly negating half of Bludgeon.

Norse have 3% slash-resists. But yes, Luri has a small advantage against Bludgeon, but pays for no other melee-resists. SB has 3% slash 2% thrust, both are useful against stealthers using mundane-resists. Crush was of limited advantage before. Also, Elfs dont have 5% crush racial.

If chosing norse, slightly better str/con than other assassins. The Mythic suggested race, Kobolds being a low strength race on a pure strength based melee option.

Mythic is clueless, what can I say :O Also I wouldnt use the word 'slightly'. Its more STR and CON then TOA allows us to add extra on our SC's. Its almost 40 RA-points spend on AugSTR and AugCON. Hardly 'slightly'.

The class specific bonus giving a slight bonus to HP, while the counterparts have alot more spec points or great utility magic. This class defining bonus is even a drawback at times, as remedy costs more actual hits and the ws/con debuff hits for higher numbers due to the bonus not beeing a flat number like Toughness, but a higher hp/con ratio.

First of all, SB's can get 'great utility magic' from the CL-lines if they choose so. Im guessing they actually know (like you know) its a farce and its not all that great The drawback is just pure bullshit, im sorry to say it like this, but after Remedy or the WS/CON debuff you still have more HP available. Yes, you take a bigger penalty, but at the end you still got more HP available, so thats just a bullshit-argument.

The longest melee stun available, although it's second in chain giving ample oppertunity for the alert opponent to counter it with strafing.

Alert people can 'run through/strafe' directly when they see an evade from their enemy. The longer stun allows for another 'all mighty' Pincer positional.

A better chance to land applying two poisons. The drawback here being forced to spec high LA to counter the variance on the left axe and speccing left axe in general as a 0 LA spec have lower DPS than a 0 CD/DW template of the counterparts.

If my uncle was a woman, she would be my aunt. Nobody goes 0 LA and then goes dualwielding, nobody goes for 0 CD/DW. Simply because its a retarded idea.

Bludgeon giving the SB the ability to be on the same damage level as it's slash/blades specced counterparts on a 5 minute timer, while the counterparts don't have this timer to fight.

Correction, Bludgeon allows the SB to do 2 mundane damage types for the price of one, so they face neutral damage at best. This is a HUGE deal, as both SB's equivalent make a deliberate choice in their melee-spec, and then take for granted to have enemies around who are resistant to their damage. The SB doesnt have this penalty. Not to mention pre-1.82 Remedy was always up in the eyes of the SB's, so Bludgeon is now aswell.

Access to PHN, which is great when it's up 5 out of 15 minutes, but at the cost of removing a high utility value item and paying a high cost in terms of using timer slots.

Im sure the lack of DEX makes more then up the missing utility on a necklace

See Puppet, you can do alot with putting extreme bias in the way you state things. You of all know this. Could we please now try to keep the tone of the discussions on a level head and avoid the vivid exagerations or outright misinformations you have made yourself famous for doing?

Thank you!

I didnt really exagerate, but its a simple fact of you and me disliking eachother, and you're always off to defend every single Midgard-ability.

Do you honestly think 2 mundane-damagetypes of the price for one, while the counterparts dont have this, are fair? Style-reduction? If you do, please let me know. Then atleast I know its pointless discussing with you, as your view is even more biassed then mine xD