Shadowblades need love

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

btw CS styles don't have any useful effects. only proper styles are garrote (snare) and achilles heel (bugged haste debuff breaking on hits, iirc).. which you can still get with an infil even if dw specced

offhand hits with lower gr > style dmg with few offhand hits. offhand hits WITH high dmg anytime > all

not going to get into the same discussion again (for real), because i know im right i did the calculations and also have a lot more experience than smilewhenyousaythat. but he can live in his own little world of incomplete tests and "facts"

On this we disagree somewhat. Yes you can put together a rr5 build of 50dw, 36w,35st,32e,34CS. For this you get DS, but you lose lifebane (and lifebane+viper is very nice - you could keep lifebane but you'd lose CD which is a big no no). You lose CS damage on garrotte/achilles & hamstring/leaper. You don't have a 'big gun' PA - at 44CS I normally 1 or 2 shot hib casters (but hardly ever mid ones ). You become an assassin duelist that functions great against other assassins, rather than an assassin that can act against a range of opportunistic targets. The alternative CS build (with 44CS and 35e) gives you a DW of 39 - 5.5% (or 7.5% depending on which numbers you accept) lower chance to swing both hands.

Personally I'd take the CS build - better envenom (coupled with viper), better style damage, better PA, better growth rate styles offset against a slightly lower (by 5.5-7.5%) swing chance.

 

[Vodkafairy]

wrong, 34 CS still makes for very strong PA damage. i didn't notice any difference worth the specpoints while raising CS from 34 (had this on gorre with my infil) to 44 (which i have atm). and dual shadows with 50 dw is > garrote/achilles with 44 spec, calculate it.

i tried viper3 but it's simply not worth it, nor is lifebane. more crits and offhand damage > more env (damage), maybe not for someone that pa's and runs away like a dog, but i generally stay and fight till i either win or die (hence i dont have vanish)

have you ever tried 50 dw 34 cs setup?

 

[Gesta]

wrong, 34 CS still makes for very strong PA damage. i didn't notice any difference worth the specpoints while raising CS from 34 (had this on gorre with my infil) to 44 (which i have atm). and dual shadows with 50 dw is > garrote/achilles with 44 spec, calculate it.

i tried viper3 but it's simply not worth it, nor is lifebane. more crits and offhand damage > more env (damage), maybe not for someone that pa's and runs away like a dog, but i generally stay and fight till i either win or die (hence i dont have vanish)

have you ever tried 50 dw 34 cs setup?

Viper3 is worth it for all those mincers that run off thinking they are going to get away until their hp drops so much that they cant run anymore

 

[Puppet]

wrong, 34 CS still makes for very strong PA damage. . and dual shadows with 50 dw is > garrote/achilles with 44 spec, calculate it.

Dualwield 50 --> 0.80 Dual Shadows

CS 44 --> 0.5 * ((44/50) * ((0.75+1.05)/2)) = 0.792

Yes 'dualshadowing' is better; by about 1.01% however there's more to that then just the growth-rates. Dont forget its relative easy for a wellplayed person to avoid dualshadows if he chooses so; not to mention hamstring+leaper+rib-seperation >> DW/Thrust-evade chains. Also on higher RR this difference becomes smaller; due to a larger ratio of skill-points come from the increasing RR (the ratio 44/50 is smaller then say 44+16/50+16)

Higher DW also boosts your offhand-swings; so thats good; however in short fights I doubt that ramps up to be better then CS in general; especially if you consider loads of failed dualshadows on people who know how to avoid it.

If you add in the fact the assassin has Evade7 you can expect quite a few evades on average. Hamstring-chain will be LOADS better then anything else.

i didn't notice any difference worth the specpoints while raising CS from 34 (had this on gorre with my infil) to 44 (which i have atm)

Not worth the specpoints is ONLY if you can buy something better for the spec-points; with 2.5x spec-points and the way envenom and stealth work (capped at 50 effective; and modified skills is same as base-skill) there's not better bang for the buck then ramping up CS over DW.

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

^^^^

Exactly.

In a short explosive fight CS I find gives more return than DW (which pays off over a longer fight.)

As for viper - well I'm still shooting for viper 3 (have 2 atm). I'm pleased with the return - dots for around 100/tick (say 90-110 depending). In an assassin v assassin fight thats around 600 damage, or 25-30% of the hps on a SB, or a third on a NS (boy do i hate remedy). Add knocking off 400 from start hits with enervating and that 2k hits SB drops to 1600, with another 600 gone from dots. He's at half hits from poisons alone.

Also like tagging those annoying archers/casters that pop out of towers by the side door ;p Sit back and watch their hits tick down to half as you hear the dot 'ow' sound through the wall

(And as a 50thrust 5 spec I used to have 34CS. No I wouldn't go back. 44CS now and would like 50 )

 

[Xajorkith]

Said the scout with zephyr, best bow damage/range, slam and possibility to spec IP.

And even with all that crap and the gazillion RA's he still hasn't the skill to solo, by fair the worst Scout I've seen on Excal. Certainly not in Powerslave / Leechings league....

If he isn't with his merry gay band, then you know he's at home having his bikini line waxed by Aussie...

 

[Balthus]

Ive only got a 40 sb but played a m8s 50 sb and he was getting hit EVERY time by infs for more dmg with the infs mainhand weaponthan i was doing whenlanding a 2h axe,thenthe infs offhand weapon lands with only a little less than my 2h weapon,wots all that about then?

I get it with my hunter,im using a nice slow hvy 2h spear and it gets outdamaged by the mainhand dmg from infs.Shouldnt a 2h slow spear outdmg a 1h fastish sword?

 

[Edaemos]

Said the scout best bow damage

and albion has the slowest bow.
so i say they have best bow dmg.

So so clueless

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

Ive only got a 40 sb but played a m8s 50 sb and he was getting hit EVERY time by infs for more dmg with the infs mainhand weaponthan i was doing whenlanding a 2h axe,thenthe infs offhand weapon lands with only a little less than my 2h weapon,wots all that about then?

I get it with my hunter,im using a nice slow hvy 2h spear and it gets outdamaged by the mainhand dmg from infs.Shouldnt a 2h slow spear outdmg a 1h fastish sword?

Depends on spec, buffs, vulns/resists, styles, armour, af etc...

Too many variables to generalise. Try getting hit by powerslave with a spear - then you'll know about it.

 

[Helme]

Too many variables to generalise. Try getting hit by powerslave with a spear - then you'll know about it.

Powerslave isnt a shadowblade thought, and just because hunters zephyr+spear hurts doesnt mean shadowblades does aswell.

 

[Chronictank]

dont think shadowblades need a boost its its counterparts that need a nerf, or we will be back where we started stealthers killing heavy tanks with ease

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

Powerslave isnt a shadowblade thought, and just because hunters zephyr+spear hurts doesnt mean shadowblades does aswell.

That wasn't the point I was responding too - the poster wondered why his slow 2h spear was hitting for less damage than a 1h weapon.

Nothing wrong with SBs when they spec effectively and use their class advantages properly.

 

[Void959]

a lot of the problem is a shadowblades will spend a lot of his time fighting other assasins. In those fights the str/con debuff just totally pwns the SB whos WS is purly str based.

SB therefore performs badly V other assasins. This is the primary reason they underperform. Versus visual targets and rangers they are no worse than other assasin.

However, I think its only fair that assasin should have dex/str based weapons like ns and inf.

and yes 2.5 spec for infs is just a piss take really.

Whilst thats true, a slash infil also has the same problem, yet they're still as popular as thrust infils if not more, which makes me think this can't be a significant cause of the SBs problems.

 

[Trallisx]

Nothing wrong with SBs when they spec effectively and use their class advantages properly.

Care to share the class advantage of a shadowblade, as after playing 1 for almost 2 years, I fail to see any advantage a sb has over a NS (to a lesser extent) or an infil.

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

Care to share the class advantage of a shadowblade, as after playing 1 for almost 2 years, I fail to see any advantage a sb has over a NS (to a lesser extent) or an infil.

1. Inherrant perma haste effect - set up correctly enables cap speed swinging and around a 5% damage bonus.

2. High hits, when exploited with RAs and overcap can get into the region of 2300. More hits = last man standing.

3. Single stat weapon = easier to overcap & easier to raise with RAs. Results in far higher ws and easier boosts to damage.

4. Both hands swinging = easier and more consistent poison application.

5. Highest str and con starting race option.

Hows that for starters? All classes have their advantages and disadvantages - SBs tend to whine on and on about their minor disdvantages without playing to their strengths in the current environment. All current tests show no damage disparity, and the only real issues remaining are effects of +TOA% on style bonuses (being tested) and lack of str/dex option/str debuff.

 

[Helme]

3. Single stat weapon = easier to overcap & easier to raise with RAs. Results in far higher ws and easier boosts to damage.

That one be good, until you face a str con debuff...

 

[Salamurhaaja]

Whilst thats true, a slash infil also has the same problem, yet they're still as popular as thrust infils if not more, which makes me think this can't be a significant cause of the SBs problems.

Nobody isn't forcing Infils & NSs to spec slash, they have option to spec thrust.
Why can't SB have the same option? Seems like too much to ask, since it's been asked for ages in every freaking TL reports.

 

[Salamurhaaja]

1. Inherrant perma haste effect - set up correctly enables cap speed swinging and around a 5% damage bonus.

2. High hits, when exploited with RAs and overcap can get into the region of 2300. More hits = last man standing.

3. Single stat weapon = easier to overcap & easier to raise with RAs. Results in far higher ws and easier boosts to damage.

4. Both hands swinging = easier and more consistent poison application.

5. Highest str and con starting race option.

Hows that for starters? All classes have their advantages and disadvantages - SBs tend to whine on and on about their minor disdvantages without playing to their strengths in the current environment. All current tests show no damage disparity, and the only real issues remaining are effects of +TOA% on style bonuses (being tested) and lack of str/dex option/str debuff.

Can someone plz shut this guy's mouth. Ty very much.
How about next time give list what is so bad about SBs, so we can compare pros and cons.

 

[Flimgoblin]

How about next time give list what is so bad about SBs, so we can compare pros and cons.

we get that in every other post

 

[Lothandar]

best bow damage, says who?
best range, you mean that extra 100 range (+10) ?

WOW.

It iz a known fact that scouts don't deal 600-800-1000 damage with their bows regardless of their target. It's all lies

 

[Edaemos]

It iz a known fact that scouts don't deal 600-800-1000 damage with their bows regardless of their target. It's all lies

Yes only scouts can do that

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

Can someone plz shut this guy's mouth. Ty very much.
How about next time give list what is so bad about SBs, so we can compare pros and cons.

Says the 'best' SB player who could only win pre 1.62 when he had a 40% damage advantage....

There are pros and cons on every class - its about maximising the first and minimising the latter, and from observation a number of SB players don't bother doing this.

 

[Runolas]

Says the 'best' SB player who could only win pre 1.62 when he had a 40% damage advantage....

There are pros and cons on every class - its about maximising the first and minimising the latter, and from observation a number of SB players don't bother doing this.

Again your making a fool out of yourself...

We've been through this so many times now, and still even if most high RR Inf/NS agree that the SB has been the worst class in 1 vs 1 since 1.62 you still keep beating the bandwagon.

 

[Dorin]

Yes only scouts can do that

scoutS do 15x800+ fyi :[ damn zerglings

 

[Jaem-]

It iz a known fact that scouts don't deal 600-800-1000 damage with their bows regardless of their target. It's all lies

Most scouts use braggots or some ml drop around 5.1 to 5.4spd, wheres all realms have access to these, except midgard at 5.3? yeah they have access to IMMOLATED BOW omg!, but so do hibs, its not that used tbh.

All using around simular bow spds, all have the same spec line!, luri, saracen have the same dex, and kibbi only 10 shy of them, oh well if you say scouts out dmg the rest... I'm sure many will believe you.

Tho who ever has relics will be the king of bow dmg, I think you've gotten alil messed up with range and dmg advantages.

 

[Salamurhaaja]

Says the 'best' SB player who could only win pre 1.62 when he had a 40% damage advantage....

There are pros and cons on every class - its about maximising the first and minimising the latter, and from observation a number of SB players don't bother doing this.

I have never claimed to be best, cos there have always been better SB players than me: In old school days Rayne was widely regarded to be best and in ToA it might be Paradoxx / Urizen who have taken SB to it's limits.

And after LA-nerf I played my SB from 9L0 to 10L0 which is about same as played to rr7 from zero. I still consider that quite some playing after LA nerf.

And don't forget that about 95% of all my playtime I've been solo, unlike many other assassin-players.

So let's quit personal insults.

 

[Edaemos]

I have never claimed to be best, cos there have always been better SB players than me: In old school days Rayne was widely regarded to be best and in ToA it might be Paradoxx / Urizen who have taken SB to it's limits.

And after LA-nerf I played my SB from 9L0 to 10L0 which is about same as played to rr7 from zero. I still consider that quite some playing after LA nerf.

And don't forget that about 95% of all my playtime I've been solo, unlike many other assassin-players.

So let's quit personal insults.

You used to be with Aada all the time, as for getting rr9>rr10 being the same as rr1-7, it isnt, not even close due to all your RA advantages.

 

[wittor]

You used to be with Aada all the time.

zzzzzzz
no he wasent ... he was with aada for like 1month ie 500k rps
the rest of his time he was solo

Says the 'best' SB player who could only win pre 1.62 when he had a 40% damage advantage....

ur char wasent even in rvr back then
and he was the best SB along with Rayne

 

[Salamurhaaja]

as for getting rr9>rr10 being the same as rr1-7, it isnt, not even close due to all your RA advantages.

True, you have point there.
I should have come up with better comparison.
But it's still about 1,8million, which is decent amount of killing
And enough to state that I played after LA-nerf.

 

[Kwidz]

who gonna win the "I KNOWS BEST!!" contest?