See hidden all over again for minstrels

[noaim]

Oh, it's more interesting, yes. But think of it this way. If you swing the nerfbat at a class based on the behaviour of the 1% of players who master it, you're actually going to hurt more the 99% of players who don't. And hurting the majority of player who play a class isn't in Mythic's interests.

A mincer is a very, very versatile class. That makes it a tricky class to master. When mastered, it's a very fearsome class to play - but mastering it takes time and effort. It doesn't have one-button insta-wins (the exception being Zephyr, and personally I'd remove all ML's from the game - worst idea I've ever seen). It has five-button-if-you-get-them-right wins.

Note that I'm talking about mincers solo here. I neither know nor care about stealth wars groups/duos with infi's. That's a whole other kettle of fish.



Well even accepting your argument, he'll only beat everyone and everything once he's ML8 and RR7 plus. And that's a pretty big investment in time and effort. And I'd still say that, all things being equal with *average* ML, RR and ability players, mincers won't beat many other stealthers one on one.

THe whole "mincers are overpowered" thing is as overwraught and hysterical as was the original "savages are overpowered" thing. Like savages, minstrels need adjustment, not nerfing - and in this case, I'd say it's the dumbass ML (that should never have been introduced in the first place) rather than minstrels as such.

Well, while its highly unlikely that the good players will play like crap just to keep the char from seeming overpowered, its very likely that the worse players will eventually master the class. Therefor you gotta see to what the class can do, not what players who dont know it does with it. There is alot of shitty healers about, but that dont mean healers aint one of the most overpowered (if not the) classes in fg vs fg wars. Alot of healers didnt use attackspd debuff to interupt, but it was still nerfed (fixed) because those that did made it overpowered (at least that caused the whine, the fix it self was that no instadebuffs interupted anymore in general I think). So you cant use that some people cant play the class as an argument to let it be overpowered, at least not imo. Note that when saying overpowered, I am talking about 1 vs 1 and bigger stealthfights, not fg vs fg or more.

 

[Gordonax]

Well, while its highly unlikely that the good players will play like crap just to keep the char from seeming overpowered, its very likely that the worse players will eventually master the class. Therefor you gotta see to what the class can do, not what players who dont know it does with it.

Well eventually everyone will be ML10 and RR10, but you can't judge class balance as if everyone were those levels now.

There is alot of shitty healers about, but that dont mean healers aint one of the most overpowered (if not the) classes in fg vs fg wars. Alot of healers didnt use attackspd debuff to interupt, but it was still nerfed (fixed) because those that did made it overpowered (at least that caused the whine, the fix it self was that no instadebuffs interupted anymore in general I think).

Well that's the difference. ASD was not something that was hard to use (like FZ, in fact, although FZ can be tricky), and I'd argue that a lot of healers did use it. Maybe it was just my bad luck, but *every* bloody group I met used it!

Take out all instas, take out all MLs, and I think the game would be much better balanced in general.

So you cant use that some people cant play the class as an argument to let it be overpowered, at least not imo. Note that when saying overpowered, I am talking about 1 vs 1 and bigger stealthfights, not fg vs fg or more.

Well I think multiple stealther fights is a totally different matter from 1vs1, and I'd agree that the infi/mincer combo is the most powerful stealth duo in the game. But ultimately it's virtually impossible to completely balance the game, and - just as the Mid tank group was the best tank group for a long time (and still is, I'd say) - there's always going to be a stealth duo/group that's got the upper hand. The only question is whether that's too far out of whack - and if so, then you have to look at how to balance things out a little.

 

[Fluid]

And the problem there, then, is zephyr - something that's also available to other classes.

so what? just because another class has something doesn't mean its any less powerful on a minstrel

What do you think an "average" ML is? Not on Excal - worldwide. I would bet quite a lot it's much less than you think...

not being ml8 or whatever ur class requires is like not being lvl 50, so is toa sc'ing, if u got out into rvr without it u ain't gonna get very far against toa'd opponents. In vgn alts aren't allowed to be used in rvr till they are fully toa'd out, that means necessary ml and toa sc, otherwise ur just gimping urself and ur grp.

 

[Gordonax]

so what? just because another class has something doesn't mean its any less powerful on a minstrel

So remove the ML from the game, if that's what overpowering. Or remove Sojourner from mincers and give them sometime else. But so far, despite lots of complaints that mincers are overpowered, it seems like I'm the only person suggesting this!

not being ml8 or whatever ur class requires is like not being lvl 50, so is toa sc'ing, if u got out into rvr without it u ain't gonna get very far against toa'd opponents. In vgn alts aren't allowed to be used in rvr till they are fully toa'd out, that means necessary ml and toa sc, otherwise ur just gimping urself and ur grp.

Well again, you have to consider the *average* player, not only on Excal (which has a higher average realm rank than any other server) but worldwide. I seem to remember that the average level 50, worldwide, is RR3 - and although I have no data, I'd suspect that they're a lot lower than ML8 too.

And you're talking to someone who has stopped playing his perfectly good mincer (and I'm not bad at playing a mincer, after close to two years) in favour of a level 44 rejuv cleric, which I can't be arsed to powerlevel up to 50

 

[Glottis]

Archers should not have the climb wall ability. Being able to enter a keep, and then critshot those inside before jumping out and not taking damage due to safe fall would be silly and overpowered. They should get safe fall though, to run from the 3 assasins jumping a solo archer at some MG or keep wall.

Minstrels are fine once they get to a high RR, rr6 or higher.
Whoops, surprise. A rr6 sb, ns or inf also hurts, as does a scout, ranger or hunter. Playing a minstrel well is pretty darn tough, about 6 times as tough as most of the bitching mid sb noobs in this thread think it is. They compare a minstrel to their own, press one button class, and hate the fact they can actually lose once in a while...
A low rr minstrel is free rp's, specially if solo, as it is allways 2+ sb's or ns jumping you. Somebody like Alpha can still gank those 2 sb/ns noobs, but only thanks to rr10, skills and plenty of RA's.
You guys make it out like a minstrel is some kind of savage/skald mixture with stealth, which is bollocks. And in NF they lose quite some RA's vital to them.
Regards, Glottis

 

[Belomar]

I just wish people would call us "minstrels", and not "mincers".

 

[Aussie]

I just wish people would call us "minstrels", and not "mincers".

ERINYS STILL BUGGED MISTAR MINCER!1

 

[censi]

come on moo

its not like mincers are weak.

To be honest they are going to be the best stealther 1v1 (or most effective killer and hardest to kill when jumped 1v1)

Obviously best stealther to group with with all the bullshit util that other realms cannot put into stealth groups!

On top of that they get soj line, AM now, good RA's, Can IP purge, SOS, usuall stuff.

Oh and they still desirved in RVR groups!!! (so you get best of both worlds)

IF you that pissed off with mincers roll another stealther and see what its like on the other side of the coin.

Mincers have nothing to moan about.

 

[Dawn]

lol, poor fucking minstrels, now they might have a chance to lose 1v1 with another stealther

Archers should not have the climb wall ability. Being able to enter a keep, and then critshot those inside before jumping out and not taking damage due to safe fall would be silly and overpowered. They should get safe fall though, to run from the 3 assasins jumping a solo archer at some MG or keep wall.

Minstrels are fine once they get to a high RR, rr6 or higher.
Whoops, surprise. A rr6 sb, ns or inf also hurts, as does a scout, ranger or hunter. Playing a minstrel well is pretty darn tough, about 6 times as tough as most of the bitching mid sb noobs in this thread think it is. They compare a minstrel to their own, press one button class, and hate the fact they can actually lose once in a while...
A low rr minstrel is free rp's, specially if solo, as it is allways 2+ sb's or ns jumping you. Somebody like Alpha can still gank those 2 sb/ns noobs, but only thanks to rr10, skills and plenty of RA's.
You guys make it out like a minstrel is some kind of savage/skald mixture with stealth, which is bollocks. And in NF they lose quite some RA's vital to them.
Regards, Glottis

this is true

 

[Kathal]

Remove stealth and replace it with shield spec + more spec points and id be happy

And I want the DiabloII Amazon bow and crossbow skills.
Its not like we could solo a FG with those skills.

 

[Jox]

Gordonax have a point, but still, you cant compare 2 avarage players in, say rr 5, you must compare the classes from rr 1 up to rr 11, and how it turns out in the end.

The solo mincer in rr 1-6; no problem, in rr 1-6 an equal sb will prolly kick his ass.

The problem pops when the mincer can afford IP, AP 2+ and SoS, but thats mainly because AP is an overpowered ability and shouldnt been granted to stealthers at all, especially not an assassin-class with evade 7.

The teaming mincer is a problem from day one, and we all know why.

But to sit and say that mincers, who will get access to AM in NF should have MoS is completely absurd.

I would consider the removal of AP a much bigger nerf than the introduction of MoS, that we assassins already have in form of See Hidden today.

But what you albs seems to forget is Amelorating Melodies; in NF, alb stealth groups will not only have access to speed/insta-stun/aoe-mezz/abla, all in the group will start to heal 100-400 hits every third second for 30 seconds, once every tenth minute, lol! So what can we mid/hib stealthers do? Yes, we can target the mincer first, but he will press purge/stun/SoS/AM before he die, if he dies, and the rest of his team will be unbeatable(If I have understand it correctly; AM keeps on working even if the mincer dies).

So in NF the teaming mincer have become much much stronger, while the solo mincer have become weaker, and I can acutally understand the frustration from some mincers who rolled their class to solo.

 

[Jaem-]

And the problem there, then, is zephyr - something that's also available to other classes.

heh Zaim the skald is nasty with it, insta mezz, lines up behind, FZ, spammage of hits, dead before I'm out of FZ time.

FZ very overpowered full stop, should have a longer reuser timer, and not able to do anything while active imo ;/

 

[fotm]

I heard all mincers are gay irl

 

[Gordonax]

The problem pops when the mincer can afford IP, AP 2+ and SoS, but thats mainly because AP is an overpowered ability and shouldnt been granted to stealthers at all, especially not an assassin-class with evade 7.

Agreed.

The teaming mincer is a problem from day one, and we all know why.

That's something that I can't properly answer as I only solo or run in regular groups, rather than stealth ones. The only thing I'd say is that in a game where you have classes that aren't identical, some combination is always going to be the best. In tank groups, it's the standard mid one. In stealth groups, Albs have the upper hand. The only question is if it's completely out of whack, to such an extent that a group of poor players can *always* beat a group of good ones.

But to sit and say that mincers, who will get access to AM in NF should have MoS is completely absurd.

With things like this, I'm pretty much "wait and see". Mind you I was the same with MLs, and they didn't turn out well.

So in NF the teaming mincer have become much much stronger, while the solo mincer have become weaker, and I can acutally understand the frustration from some mincers who rolled their class to solo.

This is actually true, and it's clear that by removing MoS and including AM, Mythic is pushing minstrels towards grouping. But then again, part of the overall trend in DAoC is pushing *everyone* towards larger and larger groups, so perhaps that's no surprise.

 

[Gordonax]

heh Zaim the skald is nasty with it, insta mezz, lines up behind, FZ, spammage of hits, dead before I'm out of FZ time.

FZ very overpowered full stop, should have a longer reuser timer, and not able to do anything while active imo ;/

If FZ is a one-button instawin, it shouldn't be in the game, never mind on a longer timer.

 

[Jaem-]

If FZ is a one-button instawin, it shouldn't be in the game, never mind on a longer timer.

Tho, not being able to do anything with using would be usefull, maybe make player being dragged along immune to dmg while he/she under the effect?

 

[Rider]

hmmm well - not like minsterls ARENT overpowered ... at least the ones who know how to play their chars.


i doubt many assasins / archers would get > mos 2 anyways .



how about take stealthe AWAY from minstrels completely !! thatwould be nice

totaly agree
thats the best way to remove the problem
mins is very very good grp char
but access to stealth is just a big mistake
yes all abilities of mins and grping with infis making alb stealth grp a bit overpowered ---> stun/mez/speed with stealth is insane combination
so total removal of stealth from mins will solve the problem - grp still will have perfect char and stealth wars will be more fair without that nasty stun/speed and soon fecking heal bonus to albs stealthers.

 

[Feinar]

The problem is (imo ofc) that mincers are not the same as other classes. Atm they good (on average-high RRs) in stealth-solo-stealthgroups-regulargroups wars. And i must add VERY good. They very versatile and usefull in many situations. In that case they have so many different abilities (class, or Ras or MLs) that they can use in different situations (So why complain about "i need to press 5 buttons to win"? Enjoy it! I am, as SB, like to did it too and be little more grp-friendly, but my skills and abilities straight from the beginning). Another words, mincers, imo, "sitting on many chairs simultaneously" if you understand what i am mean. If not – than "another another words" =)): mincers (actually Mythic) must finally decide, who they are – regular group class with group-friendly abilities and without stealth, or stealthers with equal (this not means "totally same", but based on stealth gamestyle) abilities\skills as other stealth classes.

PS: But, to be honest, i think its too late to make so big changes. So its only my suggestions about how it must be from beginning.

 

[Gordonax]

Tho, not being able to do anything with using would be usefull, maybe make player being dragged along immune to dmg while he/she under the effect?

That would make a lot more sense. It would still be a fun thing to use - dragging a player into a camp of nasty aggro mobs, for example - but not an instawin.

wtf don't Mythic let *us* design the game

 

[Light]

dont care about MoS.

do care about AM - think its good RA but on the wrong class.

 

[Gordonax]

So why complain about "i need to press 5 buttons to win"? Enjoy it!

Oh hey, I do! I'm not complaining about it. It's what makes playing a minstrel fun. I'd much rather play a class that you have to learn to play well instead of one that relies on a single set tactic AKA "one button" class (in fact of course no class is a one-button class, but some are more flexible than others).

I am, as SB, like to did it too and be little more grp-friendly, but my skills and abilities straight from the beginning).

I have a feeling that with NF, you'll see a lot more viable group set ups, including some which include stealthers. From what I've read, battles tend to be larger numbers and last longer. In those circumstances, I can see a role for stealthers as sort of "stealth bombers" - taking out a key healer at the back of a large group, for example.

Another words, mincers, imo, "sitting on many chairs simultaneously" if you understand what i am mean. If not – than "another another words" =)): mincers (actually Mythic) must finally decide, who they are – regular group class with group-friendly abilities and without stealth, or stealthers with equal (this not means "totally same", but based on stealth gamestyle) abilities\skills as other stealth classes.

That kind of choice could be implemented without having to remove stealth. At the moment, the cookie-cutter minstrel is 50/30/30 or thereabouts, which gives good grouping abilities and good-enough stealth (although until you're RR5 or so, you're actually going to be spotted every time by enemy stealthers). The main alternate spec is 50 instr 43 slash/thrust, which is the "pure group" minstrel - a spec that I'm actually going to respec into, once I've finished levelling up my cleric (rejuv of course - buffbots are for the weak ).

What you want to do it make it a hard choice - force minstrels to spec higher in stealth if they want to be a serious part of stealther fights, perhaps to 35. You could do this in a couple of ways: make "Minstrel stealth" intrinsically weaker than "assassin/archer" stealth, so that unless they have higher stealth they'll be spotted often. or you give all other stealth classes a "stealth boosting" cheap RA. Or you could move the stealth abilities (safe fall, climb walls) to higher points in the stealth list, so to 30 and 35 respectively.

None of these would be an out-and-out nerf, but they would force minstrels to choose whether they wanted to play as a support character in a regular group, or as a stealther. If they had to spec higher in stealth, they'd have to spec lower in either instruments or slash. For example, assuming you'd need 35 stealth to be a competitive stealther, you'd either have to go 50/35/24 (losing all the decent anytime styles, and forcing you to attack from the side for anywhere near decent damage), or 44/35/34, giving better slash skill but losing the highest shout, ablative, and aoe mezz.

PS: But, to be honest, i think its too late to make so big changes. So its only my suggestions about how it must be from beginning.

Well yeah, but there's plenty of tweaks you could make that wouldn't remove minstrel stealth, but that would make them choose between being a "regular" group character or a stealther.

 

[Celery]

Can't say losing MoS bothers me, but I may get AM3 just to piss off all these bitching and whining SBs etc.

If I get jumped by a rival stealth team, I pop AM3 and SoS and run around a bit while my Inf/Scout mates rip them a new one.

Minstrels ARE a stealth class whether people like it or not and aren't as uber as some think. Besides, I like to think that if a rival stealther is stupid enough to put *34* points into MoS5 it will have seriously weakened their other Realm Abilities, giving me a chance to fight back after the initial jump.

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

who care about MoStealth.... lame RA imo I would rather use pots on offensive stuff tbh :touch:

so imo give assasins and archers MoS and use 20 pts on that and I'll use 20 pts on MoPain istead and lets see who perform best....

 

[Appollo]

Why shouldnt savages quad as often as when the class was introduced? Because it creates a big fucking imbalance, thats why.

1) Its rude 2 answer a question with a question

2) Savage whine is so last season

3) Why should the realms be balanced?

 

[noaim]

1) Its rude 2 answer a question with a question

2) Savage whine is so last season

3) Why should the realms be balanced?

1) I answered it aswell.

2) I didnt whine about savages.

3) You dont think the realms should be _balanced_? Or do you mean to replace balanced with "the same"?

 

[Moo]

yep, that sounds like a totally unbiassed opinion...

rather than sounding like total biased shiteating-induced bollocks that comes out of your mouth?

 

[Moo]

fact remains minstrels are ok as they are now, in no way are we overpowered and we're not underpowered either. In nf we get a big ass nerf for no aparent reason and all anyone can say to back it up is whiney bullshit that stems from them getting owned by a minstrel at some point.

 

[Fluid]

rather than sounding like total biased shiteating-induced bollocks that comes out of your mouth?

well i don't play a minstrel so my view isn't shaded by actually playing the class like yours is, people don't like to admit their own class is overpowered, same thing happened with savages and pre nerf zerkers. Minstrels have too much utility its that simple, now stop crying about a small change

 

[Tiarta]

well i don't play a minstrel so my view isn't shaded by actually playing the class like yours is, people don't like to admit their own class is overpowered, same thing happened with savages and pre nerf zerkers. Minstrels have too much utility its that simple, now stop crying about a small change

and enchanters dont have too much util ?

 

[Belomar]

Enchanters don't have much util, don't be silly. They're all about damage: PBAE, self-debuffed nuke, pet, DPS debuff, baseline stun. Not much more. Eldritches, for instance, are widely regarded to generally have more utility than chanters.