Politics Scottish Independance?

[rynnor]

They argue in the white paper that the UK will agree to a currency union because its in the UK's interest to do so, which may be true, but I really really think they're ignoring the "fuck you" factor here. Letting Scotland go its own way entirely on its own terms seems pretty unlikely to me, given human nature.

The UK can veto most of Salmond's ambitions like joining Nato, the EU, currency union etc. etc.

I'm not losing sleep over it though as I don't think he will get the votes he needs.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Read the high lights and all I'm thinking about is who is going to pay for the plans? Also it seemed more like a party manifest than a road map.
If Scotland wants to be independent I wish them well, but not really hopeful based on that "white paper".

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

I reckon if they added space stations to the manifesto it would be up for a Hugo or a Nebula award.

 

[Embattle]

The other odd thing is that when you reference the Nordic model he seems to ignore the higher taxes that those countries use to make their systems work, this white book only seems to cover tax cuts naturally.

 

[DaGaffer]

The other odd thing is that when you reference the Nordic model he seems to ignore the higher taxes that those countries use to make their systems work, this white book only seems to cover tax cuts naturally.

Yep, as a percentage of GDP the tax take of all of the Scandinavian countries is at least 4-5% higher than the UK. Denmark is 10% higher (probably to spend on all those drug rooms). And if he ties Scotland's currency to the UK he's effectively created a mini version of the Euro, where he can't put up taxes without capital (and labour) flight to the south. Question is, is anyone in Scotland pulling them up on this crap in a meaningful way?

 

[rynnor]

From the White paper

"Our Tax System

It will be for the elected government and parliament of the day to decide on individual taxes in an independent Scotland."

Not a huge help there.

"The consequences of Scotland voting No in the referendum

Decisions with damaging effects on Scottish society - such as the "bedroom tax" which was introduced despite the opposition of 90 per cent of Scottish MPs - will continue to be made in Westminster."

Wasn't the 90% opposition about party politics rather than because it had some special effect on Scotland? Also if Scotland offers higher rates of benefits doesn't it risk becoming a target for benefits tourism which would add to the tax burden?

 

[Wij]

Scotland to become Greece to England's Germany?

Wie komme ich am besten zum bahnhof bitte?

 

[Poag]

Rebuild the wall!


"Sir, there seems to be a ginger hedge on the horizon"

 

[Wij]

Rebuild the wall!

And ban exports of Buckfast.

 

[Aoami]

The other odd thing is that when you reference the Nordic model he seems to ignore the higher taxes that those countries use to make their systems work, this white book only seems to cover tax cuts naturally.

Exactly. I can only use Denmark as an example as it's the only Nordic country I've lived in, but basic tax-rate there is 38% (covers everything, VAT is the only other tax the average person pays iirc). It is absolutely intrinsic to making it such a great country to live in. Even paying 38% tax there (most people voluntarily pay 40% to avoid a possible tax bill at the end of the year) I was much better off , as my wage was £16+ an hour for doing exactly the same thing I got £6.75 (with ~25% income tax+extras) for in England.

The high wages make people happy, the high taxes keep things running smoothly. It is a cultural difference as well. People in Denmark are happy(ish) to pay taxes because they feel they see a return on their investment. Any surplus goes into 'the pot' which is a mystical entity that Jon Bløggs doesn't seem to question.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Aoami, is the tax system of Denmark not organized in steps? 38% for the first bracket and then going up? In Holland its relative easy to get put into a higher bracket.

As for higher taxes I feel it should also depend on service. Holland has higher taxes than Ireland but the service the average person gets is much higher in Holland.
I did have a chance to look a bit deeper into the paper but it seems its more like the Irish model than the Nordic model, and Ireland is ahead in that competition.

 

[DaGaffer]

Aoami, is the tax system of Denmark not organized in steps? 38% for the first bracket and then going up? In Holland its relative easy to get put into a higher bracket.

As for higher taxes I feel it should also depend on service. Holland has higher taxes than Ireland but the service the average person gets is much higher in Holland.
I did have a chance to look a bit deeper into the paper but it seems its more like the Irish model than the Nordic model, and Ireland is ahead in that competition.

Sorry what? No-one should be taking lessons in taxation from the Irish. Taking the tax base from fucking stupid to remotely sensible has been one of the biggest challenges of the crash, and its not done yet.

 

[Embattle]

The more you examine Salmond's comments the more annoying he seems to become like most SNP politicians, for example the often used reply regarding currency union is that Sterling is as much Scottish as it is English yet Sterling has its origins mainly as an English currency with the Scots only starting to come in to line with it during the Union of Crowns and then finally with the Act of Union. The currency is essentially something that is shared to the other countries that make up the UK, by gaining independence they lose any automatic right to it and the institutions that represent it. The other fact with the currency union is you know for a fact they'll dump it as soon as it suits them to do so, this also applies to other things they might want to use.

 

[DaGaffer]

The more you examine Salmond's comments the more annoying he seems to become like most SNP politicians, for example the often used reply regarding currency union is that Sterling is as much Scottish as it is English yet Sterling has its origins mainly as an English currency with the Scots only starting to come in to line with it during the Union of Crowns and then finally with the Act of Union. The currency is essentially something that is shared to the other countries that make up the UK, by gaining independence they lose any automatic right to it and the institutions that represent it. The other fact with the currency union is you know for a fact they'll dump it as soon as it suits them to do so, this also applies to other things they might want to use.

We can't stop Scotland floating their Pound against Sterling, but the UK would be under no obligation to back it, and there may be very good reasons not to.

The biggest irony of all this of course is that was access to a stable currency when Scotland was effectively bankrupt (thanks to the Darien disaster) that brought about the Act of Union in the first place.

 

[Job]

Scotland is owned by the English anyway.

 

[Embattle]

We can't stop Scotland floating their Pound against Sterling, but the UK would be under no obligation to back it, and there may be very good reasons not to.

The biggest irony of all this of course is that was access to a stable currency when Scotland was effectively bankrupt (thanks to the Darien disaster) that brought about the Act of Union in the first place.

Indeed but at the time the Scots believed we were to blame for its failure not the poor planning and being over optimistic....has a certain familiar ring to it eh

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25132026

 

[Raven]

Part of me wants them to go it alone just so I can read about the utter disaster that it would be in fish faces memoirs.

 

[DaGaffer]

Indeed but at the time the Scots believed we were to blame for its failure not the poor planning and being over optimistic....has a certain familiar ring to it eh

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25132026

Heh. I particularly liked:

• Scotland has been an integral part of the EU for 40 years
• It would be against the self-interest of the EU collectively and individually
• It would deny the democratically expressed wishes of the Scottish people

In answer to that:

1. No, the UK has been an integral part of the EU for 40 years.
2. Clearly since the Spanish in particular disagree, and it takes all 28 states to sign off on a change to the Treaty, this isn't true.
3. Who cares about that? That's like saying "you're denying my freedom" when a bouncer tosses you onto the street; it may be true, but the bouncer still isn't going to let you in.

It may be true that Scotland can get its application done for admission to the EU between the vote and the actual date of a split from the UK, but two years seems awfully tight to me given how long other accession states have taken (it took Cyprus 14 years for initial application to accession!) and the fact that Scotland will be renegotiating a shitload of other agreements at the same time. I read somewhere that were about 100,000 separate negotiated documents when Czechoslovakia split up, and their "divorce" would be nothing like as complicated as Scottish independence.

 

[rynnor]

Currency union with an independent Scotland not in the interest of Wales or NI...

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-independence-wales-set-to-oppose-pound-pact-1-3196426

This is a big problem for the SNP as there's little they can do to make the deal attractive to the other countries in the union. The SNP in particular should realise how intractable the nationalists are likely to be over an issue that they feel is against their national interest.

 

[Raven]

Spain will say no to changes to article 48 because of Catalonia, so that's that idea dead in the water. Scotland would end up with either coming up with their own currency or attaching it to a country (England) that isn't even in the same common market...they may as well attach it to the dollar.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

It made me chuckle to read that the trident nuclear missiles will be sent away immediately.

The won't be sent away. They'll be *taken* away. No longer being part of the UK means that Scotland will lose all of its Defense systems and bases as well as UK & NATO defense contract work, which will be moved down to England. So immediately you've got job losses and impacts to some communities around Scotland.
When Scotland works out what it wants to do to defend itself (I mean with something a bit more detailed than the vague stuff discussed so far) some of those jobs may come back but in the interim there's going to be disruption, tears and snot.

Nice spin though

 

[Chilly]

I dont know what the fuss is about. They're going to vote no anyway.

 

[Chilly]

Although I would quite like a complementary vote for non-scots to express "Whether Scotland should be part of the United Kingdom" and then see the difference in love

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

I dont know what the fuss is about. They're going to vote no anyway.

Probably

 

[Aoami]

Aoami, is the tax system of Denmark not organized in steps? 38% for the first bracket and then going up? In Holland its relative easy to get put into a higher bracket.

As for higher taxes I feel it should also depend on service. Holland has higher taxes than Ireland but the service the average person gets is much higher in Holland.
I did have a chance to look a bit deeper into the paper but it seems its more like the Irish model than the Nordic model, and Ireland is ahead in that competition.

Yes 38% is the lowest bracket, but with the amount of money you get paid out there, even getting taxed at 50% the average Dane will be better off than the average Brit.

 

[MYstIC G]

Although I would quite like a complementary vote for non-scots to express "Whether Scotland should be part of the United Kingdom" and then see the difference in love

Indeed, perhaps it should be for the whole UK to decide, frankly it'd be much more fun if this turned into a "Go on then, piss off, we've had enough of your fucking moaning"

 

[DaGaffer]

Indeed, perhaps it should be for the whole UK to decide, frankly it'd be much more fun if this turned into a "Go on then, piss off, we've had enough of your fucking moaning"

Why do you think the English aren't allowed to vote? That's exactly what they'd do, with an added "Northern Ireland and Wales can do one as well, oh, and by the way EU, fuck off". I'm not saying I agree with that sentiment (I don't), but I do think that at some point that kind of English nationalism is going to be expressed somehow.

 

[rynnor]

Indeed, perhaps it should be for the whole UK to decide, frankly it'd be much more fun if this turned into a "Go on then, piss off, we've had enough of your fucking moaning"

It would be stupid though and increase ill feeling on both sides - it's better for all of us that we stay together as I think most people realise.

 

[Wij]

Frankly, my PC room, downstairs bog and my halves of the sofa and bed would be much better as an independent kingdom and the rest of the UK can fuck off.

 

[MYstIC G]

It would be stupid though and increase ill feeling on both sides - it's better for all of us that we stay together as I think most people realise.

It is indeed, which is why I really do not understand why it keeps being brought up. Somebody, somewhere is picking up the costs of all this unnecessary bullshit and somehow I doubt it's only the SNP.