Politics Scottish Independance?

[ileks]

Seems like this is going to be a huge issue for the UK in 2012.

There are so many technicalities that would have to be sorted out. From what I understand, Scotland would take their percentage of everything, including the armed forces. Would they also take on their percentage of the national debt? How would this percentage be calculated? Also, would Scottish politicians at Westminster have to leave? There are so many other issues typing them all would take me ages.

I just can't imagine a UK without Scotland. It would be a pretty sad thing tbh.

I don't really know many Scottish people personally. What is the general feeling up there? Is there a sort of tribal resentment towards the rest of the UK that the SNP can work with?

What sort of stance should the coalition take? Cameron can't afford to come across as enforcing anything (i.e. an early referendum) because the SNP can use that to swing more votes. This is pretty unfair on the rest of the UK imo. It will have a massive affect on us as well.

 

[Wij]

You fucker. I just necro'd a thread to discuss this

 

[Olgaline]

Dear Scotland,

Dump the english, right up your cross, and join us!
Scandinavia welcomes you.

 

[Raven]

Let them go then let them go bust.

We can still visit so we wouldn't be losing much.

 

[Wij]

To be fair, under normal rules Scotland would get the majority of North Sea Oil because Peterhead juts out so far it is the closest bit of land to a large amount of the North Sea. Also the oil isn't going to run out soon. It would leave them vulnerable to fluctuations in oil prices though.

Sheikh Salmond of Scottie Arabia anyone ?

 

[Gwadien]

We (English) Won't get the north sea oil go tbh, I think 'British' Firms will still be drilling out of there rather than 'Scottish' Firms.

Surely, if the North Sea will be Scotlands main income, then they'll tax the shit out of it, to make sure they profit out of it the most, therefore the scottish companies will move to England, and drill it for 'England' - Will all be interesting, after-all, it's the Sea, not the land.

We could have an arguement such as; The scots are so anti-english, if a invading force comes across the sea, Scotland will open their arms to them, if they invade England, so therefore, having the seas under English controls would be vital for defence purposes

 

[old.Tohtori]

Scottisdh oil might result in an increase of roadrage though

 

[Wij]

We (English) Won't get the north sea oil go tbh, I think 'British' Firms will still be drilling out of there rather than 'Scottish' Firms.

Surely, if the North Sea will be Scotlands main income, then they'll tax the shit out of it, to make sure they profit out of it the most, therefore the scottish companies will move to England, and drill it for 'England' - Will all be interesting, after-all, it's the Sea, not the land.

We could have an arguement such as; The scots are so anti-english, if a invading force comes across the sea, Scotland will open their arms to them, if they invade England, so therefore, having the seas under English controls would be vital for defence purposes

A new Viking invasion? I knew all that Abba, socialism, thoughtful drama and Ikea was just a front.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well Finland and England still don't have a peace treaty after WW2

 

[Wij]

Finland will find out why in March 2012 too...


Wait. I've said too much. Everyone take this pill please.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Jan..feb...ma...NO! You wait until may so i can go to an easter party with hot ladies and offer them my choccies

 

[soze]

As I understand it Scotland do not take enough in to pay for everything. I am far from an expert but I have always been told (Scottish Dad who is against it) Scotland take more than their fair share per head. If that's the case how can they even consider it, Unless they want the rest of the UK to still contribute?

 

[DaGaffer]

As I understand it Scotland do not take enough in to pay for everything. I am far from an expert but I have always been told (Scottish Dad who is against it) Scotland take more than their fair share per head. If that's the case how can they even consider it, Unless they want the rest of the UK to still contribute?

If they got the oil they would be OK for revenue for a good while yet. Salmond thinks Scotland can be like Norway, just with added religious bigotry and heart disease. However, I don't think they've really worked some of the infrastuctural costs through; there are a lot of economies of scale Scotland gets as part of the UK (defence and the NHS in particular) that would cost a lot more on a per capita basis if they had to fund those services themselves, and that's ignoring Scotland's taste for bloated public services. There are quite a few other issues as well; Scotland would have to re-apply for EU membership and would be obliged to join the Euro (new entrants don't get a choice about joining, only about when) unless they have delusions of really being like Norway.

Most interesting thing is that the rest of the UK would be able to pay off its soveriegn debt at a stroke if they weren't sending money north of the border anymore, and Labour would never get back in power again.

 

[Wij]

Most interesting thing is that the rest of the UK would be able to pay off its soveriegn debt at a stroke if they weren't sending money north of the border anymore, and Labour would never get back in power again.

What? Explain?

 

[DaGaffer]

What? Explain?

I'm quoting from memory here, but westminster has had to make cuts of approx. 50bn pa over x years to sort out the debt. England actually pays Scotland, Wales & NI approx 50bn a year (plus other stuff like the Scottish Office) to cover "devolved spending" (80% of the "devolved spending" budget comes from England), the majority of that money goes to Scotland. So if they didn't have to send billions to Scotland, it could be redeployed elsewhere. The Labour party thing is self-evident, Labour has never beaten the Tories, ever, in England alone.

 

[Wij]

Scots get about 17% more spent on them per annum per capita but since they are less than 10% of the population it isn't going to make that big a dent.

 

[old.user4556]

I wonder if we can get through this thread without it being an "us and them" or a "Scotland v's England" mentality creeping in.

I consider myself to be British, born in Scotland with a UK passport. My dad's side are from London, my sister works in London as does my close mate. We're all British. I do not want independence and neither do the vast majority of my peers. I do not understand who stands to gain from the break up from the union and the SNP haven't put together a thoroughly detailed argument (although that may come) with detailed economic benefits for independence. All I've seen is Salmond's self centred Braveheart shite, a lot of noise and no substance.

Who gets to vote? All those resident in Scotland at a particular time? What if you're Scottish, born Scottish and working in England (a lot of my friends are post-uni)? What if you're English, born and bred and living in Scotland? A lot of the middle class areas in Scotland have a large "English" (judging by their accents) population, particularly in places like Edinburgh and St Andrews. In addition, assuming it's only those living in Scotland, if 51% vote 'yes' that means that only 2.5 million people in the United Kingdom (out of 60 million, or 4.25% of the UK population, or a fucking tiny minority) is enough to topple the union? Fuck that. Nobody in Scotland is 100% Scottish, it's a load of jingoistic bollocks.

I think independence is a step backwards. Sure, the north sea oil may have been worth it if we had independence back in 1970, but times have moved on and the oil will eventually run out (although current estimates have gone up with the new drilling of the coast of Shetland).

What about the NHS? What about Scottish equivalents of HMRC and the DVLA? Will I have dual nationality, or will I be forced to have a Scottish passport with my sister having an English passport?

There are so many questions, issues and problems to sort out first that we can't even begin to think about independence. Besides, Salmond looks like he's one burger away from a heart attack; I don't see him being here to see it all through.

 

[Raven]

^
/thread.

 

[rynnor]

There are so many questions, issues and problems to sort out first that we can't even begin to think about independence. Besides, Salmond looks like he's one burger away from a heart attack; I don't see him being here to see it all through.

Perhaps he realises this and banks on it taking 30 years all the while with him complaining about westminster 'dragging its feet' etc.

Its when you start thinking about details that it breaks down - for example would a scottish postal service be viable? In the lowlands sure but out in the highlands? What would happen to all the highlanders making a big chunk of their income selling stuff mail order over the internet (one of the wifes friends does this).

As I see it the Union is about our shared history - we fought side by side in two world wars, in Korea, the Falklands, Iraq etc. etc.

The Union is like a family - we would never kick out Wales even though its a net loss maker for the UK, the same for Scotland when the oil is gone - maybe the SNP is doing the Union a favour. When we sit down and think about it we might come to better appreciate the benefits of it.

 

[Turamber]

I have spent a fair bit of time in Bosnia and Croatia in the past two years. Most of the locals bemoan the state of their economy and quite a number hanker back to the time when they were part of Yugoslavia with the larger economy, more jobs, more prospects, lower inflation.

Much of Scotland is empty countryside. Yes they have some natural resources but they have a relatively poor infrastructure and a low taxation basis. Independence would see them in the same state as a Bosnia or a Croatia. A good vote winner for the Scottish politicians but a rank bad idea for the country.

 

[old.user4556]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ed-to-join-Euro-as-price-of-independence.html

Good to see Westminster are backing up the union.

 

[old.user4556]

Much of Scotland is empty countryside.

You're not wrong, and long may it continue. The national parks and the Highlands are areas of absolutely outstanding beauty, I cannot recommend a visit enough.

I'm very proud of being 'Scottish'; the culture, the history, our world renowned engineers and universities, being a bit of an underdog, men wearing skirts and no knickers etc.

 

[Deebs]

Personally I would prefer for the Union to stay intact. I spent many weekends (over 100) in a few short years in Glasgow and the surrounding areas. Never once did I ever experience the "us" and "them" mentality which I was warned about. Heck I was even out drinking during the Celtic vs Ranger games and was warned by the hotel staff not to do it as I was English.

 

[Gwadien]

Scotland should get independance

OR

Stop leeching money from England, along with Wales and NI.

One of the two.

 

[Deebs]

Scotland should get independance

OR

Stop leeching money from England, along with Wales and NI.

One of the two.

Why? We are a Union and everybody helps each other as best they can.

 

[Gwadien]

Why? We are a Union and everybody helps each other as best they can.

Because why should we (English) have to pay for our prescriptions whilst other countries in the Union don't, Why should I/your children have to pay £9,000 for Uni, whilst Scotland still pays £3,000, Why should EMA be scrapped in England, but not in other countries in the 'Union'?

You know Scottish students pay £3,000 for uni fees, but if I go to Scotland for Uni, I have to pay more?

Union, - fo sure, control from the Capital of the Union, Equality ffs.

 

[Deebs]

Because why should we (English) have to pay for our prescriptions whilst other countries in the Union don't, Why should I/your children have to pay £9,000 for Uni, whilst Scotland still pays £3,000, Why should EMA be scrapped in England, but not in other countries in the 'Union'?

You know Scottish students pay £3,000 for uni fees, but if I go to Scotland for Uni, I have to pay more?

Union, - fo sure, control from the Capital of the Union, Equality ffs.

What you are forgetting is that they receive a set amount of money from England, they just choose to spend it differently. No doubt other services in Scotland suffer because of the "benefits" you listed.

 

[Gwadien]

What you are forgetting is that they receive a set amount of money from England, they just choose to spend it differently. No doubt other services in Scotland suffer because of the "benefits" you listed.

Yeah but why do they have a say in our Government, and we don't have a say in theirs? - Maybe they're using more money than they should be, where it could be used in other places, OR Scotland makes their own money, and spends their own money, Same for England etc

 

[Deebs]

Ultimately Westminster does have a say in both the Scottish and Welsh parliaments. It chooses not to interfere on how they spend their allocated budget. They are not using more money than they should be, they are just allocating the funds differently to how England is.

 

[Gwadien]

But why are we giving more money to the other countries than they contribute to it? - Basically, they could all be full time toe nail cutters and still get lots of monehs.