Politics Scottish Independance.....Thoughts?

Scouse

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Sure, that's because their problem is England,
Is it, really?

I'd argue that the SNP have made England the problem (when it isn't really) - to enable a power grab. It's nothing more complex than that.
they can't just keep voting until they get the result they want
They probably can though.
 

Gwadien

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And a lot of people voted for a completely independent Scotland, which is also absolute bollocks, they would still likely use our currency and have to set their interest rates etc to ours, having no control, their health service would also likely be impacted due to losing the buying power of the NHS. They also stated that re-joining, or remaining in the EU would be nailed on when it wouldn't even be guaranteed thanks to the whole Spain/Catalonia situation.

Anyway. it's all besides the point now, they lost the vote, they can't just keep voting until they get the result they want, would the unionists insist on a further vote to rejoin the UK? They could perhaps have one every 10 years!?
You don't think Brexit is a big enough excuse for another vote? I sure do.

What if the EU said to us were not allowed another vote if Remain won? Would you agree?
 

Raven

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Well yes, but like I said, regardless of another indi vote, they are no longer in the EU and would have to re-apply, acceptance of membership not being guarenteed.
 

Gwadien

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Well yes, but like I said, regardless of another indi vote, they are no longer in the EU and would have to re-apply, acceptance of membership not being guarenteed.
Why would they say no? It's too much of an easy political open goal for the EU.
 

Raven

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Because 'they' are all member states and it has to be unanimous. Spain could potentially veto it to save giving indi Catalonia more ammunition.
 

Gwadien

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Because 'they' are all member states and it has to be unanimous. Spain could potentially veto it to save giving indi Catalonia more ammunition.
'Vote yes, or we'll withhold all future economic aid.
 

Embattle

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'Vote yes, or we'll withhold all future economic aid.
Not very democratic.

I don't see the trouble in terms of Scotland being refused, I see it as the same problems it has always been which have been covered previously in this thread.

I'm not convinced many people care about this issue in England, at least in terms of the outcome.
 

Gwadien

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Not very democratic.

I don't see the trouble in terms of Scotland being refused, I see it as the same problems it has always been which have been covered previously in this thread.

I'm not convinced many people care about this issue in England, at least in terms of the outcome.
So if Remain would the Brexit vote, would you never vote Leave again and condemn anyone that suggested it?
 

DaGaffer

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Because 'they' are all member states and it has to be unanimous. Spain could potentially veto it to save giving indi Catalonia more ammunition.
This is completely different from the last referendum. First, Scotland would have to apply to the EU as a new accession state, so no Spain doesn't have a veto (its QMV for accession); the reason why Spain would have had a veto last time was because Scotland was claiming it could just automatically be part of the EU (which wasn't true, but that was the snakeoil Salmond was pushing) which was something that had never been done before and would require a treaty change, which would have had to be unanimous.

The problem for Scotland now is they'd have to get in a queue, they'd HAVE to commit to join the Euro, and they'd also have to have an interim currency between independence and the Euro. And of course the economy and oil price are both down the toilet, but cutting themselves free of the plummeting millstone that will be the UK economy for the next couple of decades may make it worth it anyway.
 

Embattle

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So if Remain would the Brexit vote, would you never vote Leave again and condemn anyone that suggested it?
They did in 1975.

As I said it doesn't bother me which way they vote in Scotland, I'm definitely not alone in that opinion either. Personally I wouldn't mind giving Wales and Scotland a vote on independence and NI a vote to unite with the Republic of Ireland, again the result of going Independent will be problematic when you consider the problems UK is having with leaving the EU.
 

Big G

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It's almost certain that it's going to happen this time. There's no hard feelings about it, it's a simple case that Westminster / England want to go down a different road than Scotland does, warts n all.
 

Big G

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To be honest that was kinda true until Brexit fucked everything up. Sorry dude :/
My point was that it was sold to the Scottish voter as absolute priority, but it happened to us against our will anyway. The political setup doesn't work for Scotland, time to leave.
 

old.Osy

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Is it, really?

I'd argue that the SNP have made England the problem (when it isn't really) - to enable a power grab. It's nothing more complex than that.

They probably can though.
Hah, didn't peg you for the naive one, mate. I genuinely think this has resurfaced due to Brexit, but on the back of the centuries long angst, and amplified by it.

I would wanna leave your sorry ass too, had you made it more difficult for me to be european. First you take my land, then you fuck with my economic potential.

That'll be enuff of that, innit?
 

Embattle

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Although the biggest problem remains, there is no article 50 and they require the UK government to authorise another referendum.

It typifies the problem Scotland has always had in believing the tail can wag the dog, what is really ironic is the Brexit sides are likely to use each others reasons for stay/leave.
 

Gwadien

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Although the biggest problem remains, there is no article 50 and they require the UK government to authorise another referendum.

It typifies the problem Scotland has always had in believing the tail can wag the dog, what is really ironic is the Brexit sides are likely to use each others reasons for stay/leave.
So you don't consider the major political and economic changes that the UK will face is a big enough reason for them to have another vote?
 

Embattle

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So you don't consider the major political and economic changes that the UK will face is a big enough reason for them to have another vote?
In personal terms I don't care that much if they do or don't but the idea that parachuting from the UK will somehow not make their economic situation worse is laughable, now if you want to call it on sovereignty reasons then in my book that is much stronger case although it kind of gets weaken if your plan involves joining a even bigger union where you'll represent a even small tail of a Chihuahua on the body of a Great Dane. Again I don't see Westminster giving them permission to hold a referendum on independence unless some deal is done depending on the positions of the parties come the next general election.
 

Gwadien

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In personal terms I don't care that much if they do or don't but the idea that parachuting from the UK will somehow not make their economic situation worse is laughable, now if you want to call it on sovereignty reasons then in my book that is much stronger case although it kind of gets weaken if your plan involves joining a even bigger union where you'll represent a even small tail of a Chihuahua on the body of a Great Dane. Again I don't see Westminster giving them permission to hold a referendum on independence unless some deal is done depending on the positions of the parties come the next general election.
But you deny that parachuting the UK from the EU won't have an economic impact?

But besides from that, if Westminster denies them having a referendum, all that's going to do is massively increase support for independence (because fuck you, how dare you tell us we can't do what we'd like) and we'll have a very very pissed off partner in our political union.

Scotland in the EU but not in the UK does have more independence than a Scotland in the UK but not in the EU.

I think the straight up 'right thing to do' is to say 'Well, there's been some exceptional political changes, let's allow it'
 
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Aoami

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Lots of people seem obssesed with the economic impact where as time and time again, people all over the world have proved that economics are not always at the forefront of people's minds when it comes to how they are being governed. This doesn't seem like it will be a hard sell for the SNP in a post Brexit world. To those saying "will they just keep voting until they get the result they want" - of course, else they wouldn't keep voting the SNP in would they? Same as in the UK, if Remain had won, despite what Farage says, the result would absolutely not have been taken lieing down and UKIP would've probably got a higher voter share than ever.
 

Gwadien

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Lots of people seem obssesed with the economic impact where as time and time again, people all over the world have proved that economics are not always at the forefront of people's minds when it comes to how they are being governed. This doesn't seem like it will be a hard sell for the SNP in a post Brexit world. To those saying "will they just keep voting until they get the result they want" - of course, else they wouldn't keep voting the SNP in would they? Same as in the UK, if Remain had won, despite what Farage says, the result would absolutely not have been taken lieing down and UKIP would've probably got a higher voter share than ever.
OnCe In A LyF TiMe VoTe Br()
 

Moriath

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OnCe In A LyF TiMe VoTe Br()
Once in a generation is what they promised. Poison fishy dwarf wants to take the opportunity while people are pissed at the uk government. Nothing less nothing more.

they can set out as many proposals as they like. Tories have a majority enough to laugh them out of parliament now.
 

Aoami

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Once in a generation is what they promised. Poison fishy dwarf wants to take the opportunity while people are pissed at the uk government. Nothing less nothing more.
When the whole point of wanting to leaving the union is because you don't particularly like the UK government, it would be a bit silly if they didn't, don't you think?
 

Moriath

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When the whole point of wanting to leaving the union is because you don't particularly like the UK government, it would be a bit silly if they didn't, don't you think?
They should be concentrating on keeping the people safe and all resources into covid at the moment. Not a distraction of another vote.
yes if you are on the other side of course.
 

Embattle

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But you deny that parachuting the UK from the EU won't have an economic impact?

But besides from that, if Westminster denies them having a referendum, all that's going to do is massively increase support for independence (because fuck you, how dare you tell us we can't do what we'd like) and we'll have a very very pissed off partner in our political union.

Scotland in the EU but not in the UK does have more independence than a Scotland in the UK but not in the EU.

I think the straight up 'right thing to do' is to say 'Well, there's been some exceptional political changes, let's allow it'
Boring:

1. I've never said there will be no impact, but having said that I don't believe it will be as gloomy as some people keep seemingly wish for and much more importantly it will be nothing compared to the effects of covid on the economy. As a % Scotland does even more trade with rUK than we do with the EU, but as I've said in our case it'll be harder to trade with the EU but quite a bit of it will still happen much like it will be for Scotland and rUK.
2. The SNP have always bitched and blamed Westminster for everything including the things that are clearly under their control, I've no doubt it'll continue but it still doesn't change who has to authorise a Scottish referendum.
3. That is true as it stands but still doesn't change the fact they will be giving back powers they get should they vote for independence, also it is more likely that the EU will acquire more powers so even those it still has after joining the EU will be eroded. It also doesn't change my analogy of the dogs tail, Scotland may well be the Second most populous nation in the UK but it is still less than a 10th the size of England and in the EU that number drops to a 90th the size.
4. Not really but then each to his/her own views on this, as I've stated many times mine isn't that they can't but it seems to me the reasons for leaving haven't really improved and they might want to pick their reasons carefully when pushing independence.
 

Gwadien

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Boring:

1. I've never said there will be no impact, but having said that I don't believe it will be as gloomy as some people keep seemingly wish for and much more importantly it will be nothing compared to the effects of covid on the economy. As a % Scotland does even more trade with rUK than we do with the EU, but as I've said in our case it'll be harder to trade with the EU but quite a bit of it will still happen much like it will be for Scotland and rUK.
2. The SNP have always bitched and blamed Westminster for everything including the things that are clearly under their control, I've no doubt it'll continue but it still doesn't change who has to authorise a Scottish referendum.
3. That is true as it stands but still doesn't change the fact they will be giving back powers they get should they vote for independence, also it is more likely that the EU will acquire more powers so even those it still has after joining the EU will be eroded. It also doesn't change my analogy of the dogs tail, Scotland may well be the Second most populous nation in the UK but it is still less than a 10th the size of England and in the EU that number drops to a 90th the size.
4. Not really but then each to his/her own views on this, as I've stated many times mine isn't that they can't but it seems to me the reasons for leaving haven't really improved and they might want to pick their reasons carefully when pushing independence.
I find it so odd that you think that they need to give good reasons for them to leave, it's up to them. Flip this around, imagine if the EU asked us why we were having a referendum on the EU and they wouldn't allow it unless the reasoning was sound.

I but in terms of reasoning for Brexit, the reason was pretty weak; a failed attempt to unite the Tory party.
 

Big G

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2. The SNP have always bitched and blamed Westminster for everything including the things that are clearly under their control, I've no doubt it'll continue but it still doesn't change who has to authorise a Scottish referendum.

4. Not really but then each to his/her own views on this, as I've stated many times mine isn't that they can't but it seems to me the reasons for leaving haven't really improved and they might want to pick their reasons carefully when pushing independence.
On point 2: like what? BoJo and Westminster are a global laughing stock (and Tresemé before him), nobody can argue with that. We want to control our own destiny as much as possible, it's as simple as that, it has nothing to do with blame. All we're asking for is to say "ok folks, thanks for giving us full control and sovereignty, all the best" and let us get on with it regardless of the economic rhetoric that people like to throw around in these discussions.

On point 4: why do non Scots obsess over reasons for leaving? Why does it bother you so much? As above, the reason is pretty straightforward.
 

Big G

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Once in a generation is what they promised. Poison fishy dwarf wants to take the opportunity while people are pissed at the uk government. Nothing less nothing more.

they can set out as many proposals as they like. Tories have a majority enough to laugh them out of parliament now.
It's called democracy. The political landscape has shifted dramatically since 2014, at the very least Scotland being pulled out of the EU against it's will considering that it voted majorly to stay in the EU. I'd say that's a massively perfect reason to go back to the electorate and ask if they want to remain in a non-EU union with Westminster with BoJo at the helm.
 

Gwadien

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The impression I'm getting is 'how dare you suggest you want independence for reasons that I disagree with under a government that I love.'

I must be really missing something in this.

Especially the one vote in a generation bollocks. Where is that law? All I see is Boris forcing Scotland to stay because he doesn't want the union to collapse under his watch, instead he's going to force them to stay in, causing Scotland to resent Westminster more and cause even more of a shit show later down the road, hopefully under a Labour government.
 

MYstIC G

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It's called democracy. The political landscape has shifted dramatically since 2014, at the very least Scotland being pulled out of the EU against it's will considering that it voted majorly to stay in the EU. I'd say that's a massively perfect reason to go back to the electorate and ask if they want to remain in a non-EU union with Westminster with BoJo at the helm.
That's a stretch. Scotland voted to stay in the Union. The Union voted to leave the EU.

It's not like there weren't plenty of us down South that wanted to stay in Europe but unfortunately that's not how all this stuff works.
 

Aoami

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That's a stretch. Scotland voted to stay in the Union. The Union voted to leave the EU.

It's not like there weren't plenty of us down South that wanted to stay in Europe but unfortunately that's not how all this stuff works.
Not really sure how that is relevant. Indy Ref was September 2014, EU referendum was announced May 2015.
 

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